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Messages - Dunkelheit

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31
Basically... wtf was going on with the halos?

I'm probably in the minority on this one, but I think Kellhus originally was an actual prophet, which would explain the halos. Also, a couple of times he also just says stuff and later it turns out to be true, to his surprise, like Saubons first battle. At one point he says something along the lines of "I am TRUTH! Why would I not choose the vessel that can reach the most souls?"  to Akka seemingly channeling the god. Another piece of evidence is how he uses words like "wicked" when talking with his father, which makes no sense to Moe sr.

We know that actions in Earwa can change the way gods perceive things. Because White Luck failed Yatwer now believes he was always gonna fail no matter what, even though she believed he was always gonna succeed no matter what earlier. These changes is directly or indirectly due to the No-God since the gods can't see it. I think that somewhere between the Prince of Nothing and the Aspect-Emperor, he stopped doing what the god told him because what the god told him makes no sense when you factor in the existence of the No-God. This changed the way the gods views him, and now they think he is and has always been a false prophet. But like the Judging Eye, if you get prophet powers once you keep them forever even if the gods no longer think you are one.

32
And just exactly why would Ajokli create a tool that motivates the closing off of the Outside, ending his feasting on souls?

What if the Consult ends up locking them self in with Ajokli? (I don't really buy that interpretation either, just speculating)

33
The Unholy Consult / Re: (TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC
« on: July 29, 2017, 09:38:55 pm »
I get why people are mad with the way the Mimara story line went, I was definitely going "Come on! Fucking open you useless piece of shit!" when she stood in front of Kellhus after the death of White Luck 2. But I also love the way Kellhus just dismantled Akkas entire case afterwards, because of course he does. It's Kellhus we are talking about. In the end it was a good ride, and we learned a lot of stuff along the way even if it did really culminate in the big confrontation of Kellhus like expected.

34
So we all agree that that Dunyain philosophy makes little sense in Earwa due to the Outside, but what if the Dunyain were on earth instead? There is still the is-ought problem. Should they summit to the greater machine? Does Cnairs take on it make more sense? Other suggestions?

35
In one of Pryas POV he notices that Kayûtas knew about Kellhus plan to betray him for his actions with the ordeal and serwe didn't.
Once i read that it he becomes more of a goad for Proyas to act the way he did. As it conforms to the plan.

I thought so too, I am mostly referring to how Kayûtas appear from Proyas perspective not necessarily how he actually is. But I also think Kellhus plan was such that it would succeed regardless of whether Kayûtas would lose his mind or not. So I still think it up for interpretation whether or not he did.

36
Dunk, that's interesting, but seems complex- kind of like the multiverse theory- if every time the gods mess with time, another version of the outside pops into existence there would be a multitude of forces on the reality of Earwa. That being said, I can see that these splits in time don't happen often- 2x was the white luck stymied. Dunno, I just think it is overly complex. ::)

Yeah, I would like to simplify this theory a little:
So events in Earwa changes the gods. These new gods can and already have changed the past. So when (or maybe if) the world closes, presumably this too will change the gods and these gods will think the world has always been closed. But these gods can not change the past since the world is closed to them, which is why we don't hear from them.

37
I asked this somewhere else, but doesn't the existence of the outside, as it is, auger the ultimate failure of the consult? If the outside is timeless, wouldn't it be closed for ever once it is closed? If they succeeded sometime in the "future", it would "already" be closed, no?

That's a hard question. I'm gonna mangle together two very different views of time here, and this line of reasoning is kind of a mess, but I think you need something like this to square the circle.

The future the gods see can be changed. We saw this with both the White Lucks, and when the future changes the gods change. So from the earth perspective perhaps up to the future-change we had one set of gods and an Outside that worked a certain way, then after the future-change we have a new Outside? If we take this to be true then there is a Yatwer version 1 before the change and a Yatwer version 2 after the change. The second White Luck is picked before the first one failed, and if the first one is guaranteed 100 % to succeed then it makes no sense to make another one. Perhaps the first White Luck was picked by Yatwer 1, then when it failed Yatwer 2 picked the second one. But the fact that Yatwer 2 was able to pick the second White Luck before the change would seem to indicate that both versions exist throughout time (as they should since they are gods).

So if we follow this line of reasoning further then it seems that we have many different versions of each god interacting with the world, each acting according to the future they see which is caused by future changing actions on Earwa. According to this interpretation there should be versions of the gods that are shut out, but since these versions are shut out they can't act on the world is my guess. Perhaps each god is a superposition of every version of themselves, but as time progresses on Earwa they sheath possibilities. So that Yatwer 1 can only interact with the timeline up to event that changes her into Yatwer 2, but Yatwer 2 can interact with both the time following and preceding the change. Or something like that. I'm just speculating.

38
What? How about when Nau-Cayuti was the No-God...could the gods see Kelmomas then?
You are projecting our sense of time onto the gods, the gods experience the entire timeline at once. Since Kelmomas ended up being the No-God, he has always been the No-God to the gods. As we see when Mimara looks at him with the Judging Eye. Mimara is another example. She gets the Eye because she miscarries, even before she ever was pregnant since the gods don't distinguish between before, after or during because of how they perceive time. They also have no memory (and why would they if they can always see everything that ever happened and will happen) so they are oblivious to the timeline changing. At least that is what Kellhus claims.

I get the confusion, Bakker is definitely fucking with cause and effect, and our sense of time throughout the books. As well as many other things we take for granted. I can't quite wrap my head around how people can prophesy things that even the gods can't see.

39
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
« on: July 28, 2017, 01:43:05 pm »
I'm glad you agree on the ending part, H.

I'm not an expert on how this world works, but according to Kellhus explanation the gods can't see the No-God or the Consult is because they cause the closing of the world from the Outside. So if the Great Ordeal succeed in stopping the Consult then the gods should be able to see the Consult. But they don't, so the Great Ordeal must fail. This is super circular and I'm not completely clear on the mechanics behind it, but it seems like the Consult were gonna end up winning from the start. Or maybe I misread something.

40
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers]What was the point
« on: July 28, 2017, 12:57:46 pm »
I couldn't disagree more. The world ends so nothing matters? You could make the case that the events in the books matter precisely because they bring about the end of the world, but that is kind of beside the point. To me it wouldn't matter more if everyone ended up living happily ever after like in the Lord of the Rings. Its a fantasy world, its not real, it doesn't matter what happens to it either way. What matters is what happens to the person reading the books. To me it was an extremely interesting exploration of different philosophies as well as psychology, and it has definitely changed the way I think about things.

And I don't accept that every story with an unhappy ending is bad or pointless story. In many cases I would say shoehorning in a happy ending were it doesn't belong at least partially ruins the story rather than add to it. F.ex. in Harry Potter they had been hinting at Harry being a horcrux and the story therefore has to end with his death. But instead J. K. lives up to her name and inserts three super powerful magical objects that no one has ever heard of before just to fucking bring him back from the dead. That's bullshit and I'm super glad Bakker didn't do something like that. There are also plenty of american films that has destroyed the entire point of the film forcing the happy ending, f.ex. Limitless and I am Legend.

As Kellhus explains the fact that the gods can't see the No-God means the Consult at some point has to win. Hence the Consult wins. If you through that out the whole story from the first apocalypse and onwards makes no sense.

41
The Unholy Consult / [TUC Spoilers]Fatal flaw of Dunyain philosophy?
« on: July 28, 2017, 12:40:11 pm »
As far as I understand the Dunyains philosophy is basically buddhism plus an extreme emphasis on logic and reason. They seek to free themselves the darkness that comes before thought and action, live purely according to the logos and become self-moving souls.

But you can't just logic yourself into something. Should you help or hurt people, destroy the world or save it? You can't answer this or anything really with pure logic. Ultimately it depends on what preferences you have, what kind of desires. From the very beginning we see Kellhus making people follow him by explaining and free people from the darkness that makes them act the way they do, in a way making them more like the Dunyain. But that just makes them more dependent on him, more enslaved. Likewise Kellhus himself is, or at least claims to be, completely controlled by his mission. This makes it seem like the Dunyain rather than being the freest people, are actually the most enslaved. They completely controlled by their mission to the point that they kill themselves over having bad dreams.

I think the Unholy Consult actually explores this problem pretty well. Serwa calls Kelmomas a machine because everything he does is to make his mother love him. He argues that she is as much a slave as him, she just chooses to follow Kellhus instead. She argues that it's better to be a slave to the logos. This seems like the logic that the Inchoroi follows too. If we are all machines it makes sense to follow the greatest machine. For the inchoroi that is the Ark, for Serwa it's Kellhus.

Kellhus seems to want to make himself the most powerful machine possible? Having conquered the three sees and the consult he wants to wage war on the outside making himself more powerful than the god of gods.

Cnair on the other hand goes a different route, and embraces passion and irrationality. At one point Kellhus describes him as the only worldborn man who is awake, and he uses his knowledge of the darkness that comes before to make himself impossible to reason with. Becoming an inverse Dunyain of sorts. Is this an alternate path to becoming the self-moving soul? Or perhaps the Dunyain way is even a dead end and this is the way. Like Kellhus he is able to channel the devil, even without magic.

What do you guys think?

42
The Unholy Consult / Re: TUC - Moments that cut to the visceral quick
« on: July 27, 2017, 08:28:14 pm »
At the end of TTT when Akka goes to get his wife, and everybody just stands there listening, watching. When he says something along the lines of :
"I denounce my wife! As an adulteress! And as a... as a..."

Whore.

43
The Unholy Consult / Re: TUC - of heaven and hell
« on: July 27, 2017, 08:07:54 pm »
I think it's readers and those discussing online who have created this "cultural assumption" that the Outside is homogeneous.

Both what Meppa and the high priestess says about the Outside seems to indicate this though. Meppa says the gods are nothing but greater demons, and the rather than argue against this the high priestess fires back with there being no borders on the outside. Also, as far as I understand the inverse fire shows that the nonmens religion is false, that they can't move in between the gods in the Outside and are therefore damned. Which would support the priestess claim that there are no borders. Perhaps the Outside is not homogeneous, but it seems to be continuous at least.

Then again Kellhus explains that mortals can't accurately perceive the infinite/Outside, so maybe we can't totally trust what they are saying.

44
Perhaps then, his role is more to illustrate that even a Dûnyain can be broken by the tribulations of the Ordeal?

Also, welcome to the forum, great first post.

Thanks! Maybe. Kellhus gets broken on the circumfix after all. And the Survivor goes mad too, so the Dunyain are not unbreakable. I see Kayûtas as more warped than broken though. Perhaps it's to add to Mimaras/the Gods view that the Dunyains mission is a fools errand and the shortest path is inherently wrong. One of the most haunting scenes for me is when Proyas goes to murder the king of the Scalded and the king says something along the lines of "We walk the shortest path together". Indicating that he understands why Proyas is doing it and agrees.

45
As for Kelmomas affecting the gods, that is explained. He is the No-God, gods can't see him. Gods see the entire timeline, when the timeline changes, the gods change. If you surprise a god, that fundamentally changes that god and Kelmomas always surprises as he is invisible to them.

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