Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - Sausuna

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 11

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

« on: October 13, 2017, 07:03:46 pm »

Quote from: Yellow on October 13, 2017, 06:54:51 pm

Come on, this is Kellhus. You don't think he wondered *why* sometime in the past 20 years of studying the Apocalypse, mastering metaphysics, and interrogating Skin Spies? And if we on the forum can get close to guessing from a couple of quotes, he's going to be stumped?

I mean, even Cnaiur found out about the IF as soon as TTT (even if he didn't know what it was). Are people still underestimating Kellhus?

I'm sure he wondered. But other alternatives exist. The first, and a likely one, being that The No-God is an extremely effective tool. Seeing as it allows the coordinated control of Scranc/Bashrag/Wracu, brings forth a massive whirlwind, and prevents the birth of more humans.

I'm not underestimating Kellhus. I'm drawing directly from his conversation where he asks why The Consult bothers to go to all the trouble to restart The No-God if they had nukes. And that nowhere else in the text does Kellhus imply he was aware The No-God was necessary.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

« on: October 13, 2017, 06:45:39 pm »

Quote from: Yellow on October 13, 2017, 06:34:20 pm

The number definitely comes from the Inchoroi... I'm fairly sure Wutteat referred to the number. Since coincidence is unlikely, the prophecy must have been derived from there. Kellhus would know of the prophecy, and from there it's completely reasonable to think he could have devised its origins. There is very little about the Consult that surprised him in the Golden Room.

Anyway, he would definitely have worked out that the NG was needed, because otherwise why would they bother? He just didn't know *why* the NG was needed.

Why should we have any reason to believe he worked out The No-God was needed? He says, in a way, 'why not just use nukes'. He's presenting alternatives, why use The No-God at all. If he's unsure why use it at all, intuitively the line of thought is that he thought it unnecessary.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

« on: October 13, 2017, 05:53:58 pm »

Quote from: Yellow on October 13, 2017, 05:43:25 pm

Quote from: Sausuna on October 13, 2017, 01:31:57 pm
I really hate the 'Inchoroi must win' line. Maybe it just has to do with the idea of how eternity works in the Outside. Further, Bakker's answer on the topic, was far too vague.

Quote
1. Why did Kellhus say to Proyas that the Inchoroi must win? Was he arguing from the perspective of the Consult?
1) Is that what he says?
I feel like there has to be some understanding of the text I'm not able to grasp. Either that his comments are somehow more in regards to specifically the Gods in relation to The Ark. I've even vaguely considered what he says may have been influenced by Ajokli at that point or some differing metaphysical understanding, given that he didn't even know the No-God was necessary before the Golden Room. Or perhaps that The Ark may lay outside Eternity in some other manner. I'm not sure. Given that Ajokli literally stood in The Ark, it seems weird to consider him still blind to it. As well that he seemed capable of perceiving the Skin Spies.

Anyway, on the specific thought of contingency - maybe. But I don't think Kellhus thought the entire endeavor would fail specifically. He makes note that the eventuality of human extinction may take place ages in the future. Even had Kellhus managed to slay The Consult, the possibility of others taking up their work would remain unless he could utterly destroy The Ark. And given the only thing we've seen damage it is a lazer weapon he didn't know about, that seems a nearly impossible prospect.

I'm nearing the end of my re-read and will post some thoughts on a few days, but this section is one of the points I wanted people's opinion on. I read this conversation numerous times, but there seems to be a logical gap in what Kellhus is saying to Proyas. Bakker's answer is typically unhelpful. YES he said that to Proyas. What does it mean, mate?

Anyway, I'll go into more detail once I've gathered my thoughts.

But on the comment that he didn't know the NG was necessary - there's a chapter heading quote in TWLW that mentions the 144k, so SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE must have been aware of what the Inchoroi were trying to do. By extension, Kellhus (Lore Master extraordinaire) will also have been aware.

I think the number was in relation to a prophecy about the end of the world. That said, Kellhus knows they are trying to wipe out humanity to Shut the World - he makes that clear both talking to Proyas and The Mutilated. However, he just makes it clear he wasn't aware they needed The No-God.

The Unholy Consult / Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121

« on: October 13, 2017, 05:23:00 pm »

Aulyanau the Conqueror (895—950)—Legendary ruler of the Cond who defeated Cel-Ongonean at the Battle of River Axau, leading to the Breaking of Ûmerau and the beginning of the Cond Yoke. His subsequent campaigns would unite the Norsirai for the first time since Uskelt Wolfheart. Since references to Aulyanau typically signalled pan-Norsirai sympathies among Middlenorth caste-nobles (particularly the Tydonni), Anasûrimbor Kellhus declared an Excision in 4128, striking all record of his name and famously executing several notables who continued to pretend that such a personage had ever existed.

The Unholy Consult / Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121

« on: October 13, 2017, 05:07:40 pm »

Quote from: Moosehunter on October 13, 2017, 10:35:53 am

Quote from: Madness on October 12, 2017, 06:12:16 pm
Well, I finished the Glossary today - fucking finally! While I'm still convinced that the deaths of 4121 involve Kellhus' then recent Daimotic sabbatical, I've also become convinced that some of them - given other entries mentioning religious Excision - must have something to do with the Excision of Byantas (Glossary entry Byantas).

So basically Byantas and his disciples/main followers were all deemed apostates and killed?

Not something i had considered before. Personally i had assumed it to be early experimentation with Decapitant replacement and control. Range, recall, familiarity with the subject being important early on. Has he learned to create Ciphrang from fervent followers maybe?

It was interesting that Bakker killed the conversation dead when asked about it in his reddit AMA. Bakker has stated in the past that the glossaries are to be no more trusted than real world accounts by biased historians recording events both during and long before their time (at least how i interpreted it). Meaning you are probably correct. He has given us as much as he intends to on this subject and it has no further bearing on the series. Just another morsel for us to pick to death.

For the record, Byantas lived some 2,000 years prior to Kellhus. While his excision might be related to the deaths, he has been dead a long time.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

« on: October 13, 2017, 01:31:57 pm »

I really hate the 'Inchoroi must win' line. Maybe it just has to do with the idea of how eternity works in the Outside. Further, Bakker's answer on the topic, was far too vague.

Quote

1. Why did Kellhus say to Proyas that the Inchoroi must win? Was he arguing from the perspective of the Consult?
1) Is that what he says?

I feel like there has to be some understanding of the text I'm not able to grasp. Either that his comments are somehow more in regards to specifically the Gods in relation to The Ark. I've even vaguely considered what he says may have been influenced by Ajokli at that point or some differing metaphysical understanding, given that he didn't even know the No-God was necessary before the Golden Room. Or perhaps that The Ark may lay outside Eternity in some other manner. I'm not sure. Given that Ajokli literally stood in The Ark, it seems weird to consider him still blind to it. As well that he seemed capable of perceiving the Skin Spies.

Anyway, on the specific thought of contingency - maybe. But I don't think Kellhus thought the entire endeavor would fail specifically. He makes note that the eventuality of human extinction may take place ages in the future. Even had Kellhus managed to slay The Consult, the possibility of others taking up their work would remain unless he could utterly destroy The Ark. And given the only thing we've seen damage it is a lazer weapon he didn't know about, that seems a nearly impossible prospect.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

« on: October 12, 2017, 03:16:11 pm »

Quote from: TaoHorror on October 12, 2017, 02:35:47 pm

Call it a pact, deal, relationship or what have you - if there's simply nothing objective ( conversation, teaming ) between Kellhus and Ajokli, then how did Ajokli possess him? Is the power that Ajokli can possess anyone he wants if they close in near/to a Topos? I think the 2 of them went into the Ark together in some form or fashion and if not invited, then a nice coincidence Ajokli saved Kellhus's life by seizing him in that moment ( i.e. neutralizing the chorae wielding Consult ) - to me, this is clearly a protective move for Kellhus.

I mean, I'd say there is a fair difference between a pact/deal/teaming and a relationship/conversation. If we're to believe Ajokli was speaking to Kellhus as far back as The Holy War, it might be his use of an Inversion made him more susceptible to the possession in the first place. Not that I'm claiming there wasn't some sort of deal, as I noted above. Just that possession isn't confirmation of a deal.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

« on: October 12, 2017, 12:54:17 pm »

Quote from: JerakoKayne on October 12, 2017, 12:50:57 am

But I wonder how people reconcile Kellhus' knowledge of the "darkness" without knowledge of Ajokli. He trained for thirty years to know and conquer the darkness within, but (talking to Proyas, IIRC) he just sort of accepts it as being there, and doesn't seem concerned about his lack of mastery of it? Why? I'd argue that it's because he's already accepted it as Ajokli.

I want to make note that I'm somewhat leaning towards the idea that Kellhus made a deal with Ajokli for his aid, that his plan was to have the Ordeal and his family aid him in the Golden Room, and perhaps that Ajokli was suppose to aid him somehow. But not by possessing him. I think we either need to assume he didn't tell his family this part or the aid from Ajokli wasn't mean to result in any sort of manifestation. I find it hard to reconcile the idea that he wouldn't either tell his plan to Serwa/Kayutas or at least let them know he planned on going in alone.

That tangent aside! I think two things stick out as possible reasons he'd acknowledge the growing darkness without knowing Ajokli was the cause.
- The idea that the growing Darkness/compromised spirit is harming his ability to analyze it. Given Bakker's comments on "He failed to execute on the Thousandfold Thought because he took the stability of his personal identity for granted." If his soul itself was being influenced, it may well be he was unable to recognize the alterations in himself. I think the idea of how Cants of Compulsion work could be argued as a similar principle.
- The dude was busy, by accounts making other mistakes (not being aware Esmenet would free Kelmomas) because of it. He was ordering the numerous thousands of the Ordeal, watching for Skin-Spies, teleporting numerous times (I think he notes the process eventually tires him too, but I might be misremembering), and undergoing a possibly unknown spiritual siege compromising himself. I think he might have just been too over-focused on the prize to stop and self-analyze.

The main reason I'm stilling thinking Ajokli not showing as part of the plan relates to the Serwa/Kayutas scene and Bakker's comment. That they thought Kellhus was facing the Consult alone and needed their help. And that Kellhus 'failed to execute The Thousandfold Thought.' So whether or not Ajokli was suppose to help somehow, I still don't think going in like he did was part of the plan.

The No-God / Re: Your mission, should you choose to accept!

« on: October 12, 2017, 12:34:04 pm »

I really like his idea of featuring both The Boy and other survivors of the Ordeal. I'd probably like to focus on The Boy in regards to him stumbling upon some stuff around the east (can't remember the tribe that remained past the mountains. Occasionally receiving news about the status of the world. Perhaps discovers the rest of the world is screwed in some manner as well already.

Meanwhile feature Akka and Kayutas separately as they work to save the world. Maybe it was just me, but I really liked Kayutas, but at the same time felt his characterization wasn't too strong. Might relate to just not seeing his PoV. But more often he came off as a tool of Kellhus compared to Serwa. It'd be neat to me to see where he stands, especially in light of his Father's death, assuming he were to survive. Their narrative would revolve around rallying defenses to fight the No-God, with everything going to hell due to failing infrastructure and fear. And then somehow Malowebi and Kellhus either working with or tricking the remains of Shae in The Mutilated to lead to their deaths/downfall near the very end.

Ultimately the Dunsult manage to execute their plan! The Ark reads the code of the world, the population is reduced to the foretold number... To no avail! The Last Inchoroi and The Consult find themselves still damned! All their efforts, all their warring, a crusade across the stars for what was always a futile effort. The World cannot be shut. Fate cannot be avoided.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

« on: October 11, 2017, 03:50:59 pm »

Quote

I don't like this idea at all because the Ordeal was extremely close to the Horns. So basically it comes to exact measures, in fiction. A mile away Kellhus is compromised but still can more or less think straight, half a mile away he is extremely compromised, flying about the Upright Horn (like, a couple of hundred feet away from the Ark?) in a climactic battle with Aurang he loses it and goes to his death. If his plan was to get the Ordeal into the Golden Room with him, then that doesn't work, so what's left is only Ajokli's plan, which Kellhus isn't aware of in accordance with the constraints of the "Kellhus doesn’t know about Ajokli" theory. So going into the Room alone is him committing suicide and not noticing it because of the divine influence. Yet he is able to cast Metagnostic Cants, use noticeably Dunyain terms, and hold a reasonable conversation with the Dunsult (from their point of view and from ours).

The problem is that we don't know why he precisely went in, but there are other rational considerations he might have been making (at least that he might have thought were rational). Scouting out the remaining members of the Consult, confirming there were Dunyain/who as left otherwise, expecting his sorcery to be enough, that sort of thing. Just because he's compromised doesn't mean he suddenly also loses the ability to cast sorcery or hold a conversation. Had Ajokli not possessed him, he very well may have been able to teleport out, defend himself, flee prior to the skinspies surronding him, etc.

Quote

Nonetheless, all of it happens because he went over some very specific distance threshold, which is not specified to us (unlike with Kalakiol) and which happens exactly after such climactic scenes as: him saving Serwa, cutting down the Canted Horn, and defeating Aurang.

To me such a contrived coincidence is extremely grating when it can be completely eschewed by a different reading of the events.

I don't see the issue, but you're acting as though the whole 'getting more possessed as he got closer' thing is an entirely arbitrary measure. Again, certainly, we don't know a lot about daemonic possession or the Daimos overall. But I don't see literally being inside the most severe torpos as a weird qualified for a god manifesting. I don't think the Kakaliol is exactly the same situation, but I think we can use it to extrapolate that being a foot away from or inside the Ark is what makes the difference.

Quote

I have no desire to dispute this, because it simply works. But the moment of possession is clearly outlined in the narrative by Kellhus's head bursting into flames (just like the moment Kalakiol gets freedom is outlined). Before that he is compromised, but not to the point of being completely unreasonable (like going into the Golden Room without his Ordeal, which was strictly necessary if he didn't make a deal with Ajokli). He makes mistakes, but not obviously suicidal mistakes.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one. As I noted above, we don't know the precise reason Compromised Kellhus chose to go inside in this theory. But there are reasons that preclude it being a massive blunder on a suicidal level.

Quote

Because he doesn't know they don't have more nukes (he specifically asks about this), has no idea what else was salvaged in the Ark, and the Dunsult has magic (they use sorcery to get Kelmomas into the Carapace). And also there is a huge host and prepared defenses even without all those things.

They are outmatched, I see logic in Serwa's assessment. The only thing in contention is whether Kellhus agrees, but his opinion on the matter is not presented and he evidently had no desire to reassure Serwa

I admittedly forgot they used sorcery at that point. Though, it doesn't really note how many possess it or to what degree. I don't agree the Ordeal couldn't defeat the Consult without a god. Personally, I think Kellhus could have won, had he not been possessed. Wether Kellhus felt that way or not is a contention, but given the 'So soon?' line, it still seems to fall in line that they were to join him in challenge the Consult.

Quote

I'm not sure what makes you think so. Could you elaborate?

Again, we know the process was gradual. Kellhus was there in some capacity until Ajokli was fully manifested. Given he was able to use the Metagnosis outside while compromsied and inside while compromised, just makes sense that it was him doing so.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

« on: October 11, 2017, 02:19:10 pm »

Quote from: SmilerLoki on October 11, 2017, 01:42:20 pm

Quote from: Sausuna on October 11, 2017, 12:48:05 pm
Yes, but I think Bakker's answer in regards to his plan failing outline why that would make sense.
Then the timing doesn't really make sense. Why wouldn't Ajokli-possessing-Kellhus just storm the Golden Room by his lonesome a day or two earlier, if he is in such a hurry to manifest in the physical world that Kellhus's well-being doesn't matter to him? Kellhus was sufficiently close to the Ark for a while (I can't really buy that some couple of miles make the difference), but only enters it during the climactic battle, said battle being planned from the get-go. Postulating that he entered the Ark because he suddenly lost control exactly then seems contrived.

I'm not sure where you are getting the assumptions that he was close enough previously. If anything, I would say we're shown and told that him getting close is precisely an important thing.
- We're told a couple times by Bakker in his Q&A that Kellhus' possession was 1. a gradual process and 2. got worse the closer he got to the Ark.
- Think on Kakaliol, the ciphrang we see a couple point of view entries on. It isn't until he's literally right next to the massive torpos of the Ark that he can slip his bindings to escape. He was right next to it, trapped. And only once nearly touching it.
So it certainly makes sense to me that Ajokli likely couldn't manifest as he did until they were in the golden room a bit.

I think the phrasing 'suddenly lost control' is off. He was losing control for a while. Bakker even outlined this, "He drifted into it, before finally being seized in the Golden Room." We're told he makes other mistakes because of his spiritual duress, namely missing that Esement would free Kelmomas. His thinking was compromised. Why he might have thought he walked the conditioned ground can certainly be attributed to flawed thinking whilst under divine influence, if not outright possession.

Quote

On the other hand, it makes perfect sense if we consider the whole Ajokli-as-a-weapon thing planned by him. Kellhus needs to battle full Dunyain. However good are his sorcerers, it's unreasonable to think they would be on par with the Dunsult. Even Serwa is much weaker than her father, which is evidenced by him using the Cant of Translocation over and over again while falling to successfully battle a flying enemy and her being able to use it once in a more or less calm circumstances and then require a prolonged rest. So Kellhus's engaging a God as his enforcer looks like a reasonable plan and explains his words about walking the Conditioned Ground in the Golden Room even without his Ordeal. Otherwise we need to attribute those words to Ajokli, and then they sound off. Not unexplainable, but off.

[EDIT] Another important thing that comes to mind is Kellhus using sorcery before his head gets engulfed in flames, but not during that time. Do we think that a God, even possessing a mortal, would be able to use sorcery? At the moment of entering the Golden Room the possession would need to be almost complete, so there is basically no Kellhus left, it's Ajokli uttering Metagnostic Cants.

It hardly makes perfect sense. Why is it unreasonable to think they could have take the Mutilated absent a God? Serwa, despite being lesser, is still an amazing witch. Kellhus is likely the best ever, Kayutas is an amazing warrior, and the host of Schools are quite capable. The Mutilated had no more nukes, we see no more lazer weapons, they have no magic, and Aurang and Mek die. Seems like they certainly could have been their match.

I think you're viewing the possession as a switch flipping. One moment Kellhus, the next Ajokli. but several times the implication is that it a gradual process, a 'drifting'. I see no issue with the idea of Kellhus having sorcery at his command until Ajokli truly takes over. Kellhus is merely the one using it until it happens, whilst under the divine influence.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

« on: October 11, 2017, 12:48:05 pm »

Quote from: SmilerLoki on October 11, 2017, 03:22:40 am

Quote from: Madness on October 10, 2017, 04:21:41 pm
Perhaps, he is actually depending on his Daughter and the Ordeal to gain the Upright Horn and assist him.
This just doesn't work for me. If he needed their help, he shouldn't have gone into the Golden Room alone. He had every opportunity not to do so.

Yes, but I think Bakker's answer in regards to his plan failing outline why that would make sense.

Quote

Thank you distantdiscord: Kellhus became less Kellhus and more Ajokli the nearer he came to Golgotterath. He failed to execute on the Thousandfold Thought because he took the stability of his personal identity for granted.

His entering Golgotterath may very well have been due to the worsening situation with Ajokli. Think on how Kayutas and Serwa react during the discussion.
"I saw Father upon the Vigil."
"So soon?"
"We need to storm the Ark now!"
The plan very much seemed to be going ahead of schedule.

The No-God / Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.

« on: October 10, 2017, 05:34:45 pm »

Quote from: Madness on October 10, 2017, 04:27:52 pm

Quote from: Sausuna on October 10, 2017, 04:03:32 pm
Well, if Serwa survived, she can teleport (along with a couple others). And Saccarees theoretically can try. Otherwise, probably not. I doubt the others even have the means of survival for the journey back. Unless they grabbed some Quya corpses to burn.

There is the possibility some of the Quya survived the Battle as well?

Not quite what I meant. I mean that the chance of survival for an ordinary Ordealsman would probably be to burn and eat a Quya. Though, assuming they want to chance 'The Ash' instead of 'The Meat'. But yes, I suppose it is possible some Quya survived. But I rank it unlikely as even the organized Sorcerers were ravaged by the organization of the No-God Horde. Their disorder would likely make retreat difficult.

Though, I suppose the No-God is the worst horrible memory any of them might have faced before. So it could refocus them, perhaps.

The No-God / Re: Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.

« on: October 10, 2017, 04:03:32 pm »

Quote from: Madness on October 10, 2017, 03:56:22 pm

Quote from: Swayal Serpent on October 10, 2017, 12:56:34 am
sorry if this is off topic a bit, but did i miss something? I thought that Sacarees was still very much alive at the end of TUC. I know theres a good chance he died in the chaos at golgotterath, but as far as we know hes still breathing. So, isnt sacarees the most powerful schoolman left? And thats assuming Serwa didnt make it, which I think is unlikely

Quote from: MSJ on October 10, 2017, 09:36:56 am
I think he might be alive, but, Akka would utterly ruin him...utterly. I don't care if he uttered a Meta cant or not. Akka underestimates himself, along with everyone else. Akka will cause ruin!

Lol, right, Saccarees. Wow, I just noticed how awkward those two Es are.

Humanity in Earwa needs all the help it can get. But the retreating Ordeal probably isn't going to impact the defense of the Three Seas, given that TNG picks up weeks after TUC.

Well, if Serwa survived, she can teleport (along with a couple others). And Saccarees theoretically can try. Otherwise, probably not. I doubt the others even have the means of survival for the journey back. Unless they grabbed some Quya corpses to burn.

General Earwa / Re: The Sohonc and Mangaecca

« on: October 09, 2017, 10:17:56 pm »

Quote from: Duskweaver on October 09, 2017, 08:46:25 pm

Do we actually know for sure that the term 'Grand Master' was used the same way by the ancient Gnostic Schools as it is later among Three Seas Schoolmen?

In the 'modern' Three Seas, it seems to be fundamentally a political rank. The leader of a School. Each School has only one because he's the guy in charge.

Is it possible that in Far Antiquity it was instead a title keyed solely to sorcerous ability/skill/experience, and that a School could therefore have several Grand Masters at a time? So Outhrata and Titirga could have both been Sohonc Grand Masters at the same time, with Titirga (badass prodigy that he was) being raised to that rank some time before Outhrata, hence Titirga being 'the second Grand Master of the Sohonc', while Outhrata is merely an 'eventual Grand Master'.

We don't know, but the language would imply it is the same in both eras. The section under Apocalypse also mentions them informing the Grandmaster of the Sohonc, not a Grandmaster, specifically, about the Consult as a threat.

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 11