I had a hunch it was not in TGO and thought it was WLW.  It was actually TJE:

Quote

Vast herds of sheep and cattle, bred solely to accompany the march, were also beaten across the horizon, so many that some Men of the Ordeal began calling themselves ka Koumiroi, or the Herdsmen—a name that would later become holy.

Chapter 7, not an epigraph though.

I think A fits a lot more, especially considering how their view on food prior to eating the Meat was.

Either way, I think there are other references to the idea that people outlive The Great Ordeal. It might have been the epigraph or something that sounded like someone had chronicled the events after the fact.

Quote from: Sausuna on August 23, 2017, 01:10:17 pm

Well, not to be critical of the analogy, but people with Alzheimer's can influenced the world. Memory issues don't preclude the ability to interact with things. And given Kellhus in the vision, for all we know, he was aiding Gilgoal or Ajokli for some reason. Now, I'm not sure one way or another, I imagine there are other textual statements on the matter. Just saying for the sake of that answer, it isn't clear they could or couldn't manifest influence.

Thing is that the Gods dwell in sub-realities where reality conforms to desire. The things in those realities are harvested from memories of the real world. They interact with reality through souls like Sorweel and Psatma primarily via memories.

Does the Celmoman prophecy seem like it was delivered by someone with Alzhiemers?

Really? I always thought they were just using visions for Sorweel. They also use that mud-face that the one slave makes. And he's always seeing that bird (heron? stork?). Either way, I still don't find the terminology compelling to say they are literally unable to influence the world.


The Celmoman prophecy seems like it was delivered by someone who is bad at giving messages.
"Brave King…
Brave, broken King…
Behold the son of a hundred fathers…
Behold the end of the World…"
If the wording is to be believed, though there might be more because it seems a stretch to interpret that into 'they said another Anasurimbor will come at the end of the world' with nothing else.

Quote from: Sausuna on August 23, 2017, 01:10:17 pm

Also, what does Skafra say that implies Celmomas wouldn't have been saved? All I saw from him was mentioning, 'our lord hath tasted thy king's passing', which seemed a reference to just knowing he died.

Right, so if we put together the (presumable) source of the name Cara-Sincurimoi "Angel of Endless Hunger," with Skfra's comment there about tasting his passing, and "souls that encounter him pass no further," the implication there would seem to me to be that the No-God is not allowing souls to pass through to the Outside, presumably this is how it "broke" the great Cycle of Souls.

It's plausible though that this is a mistake, rather it's a case of the "taste" is the "code-flash" and the cycle is broken by simply just not allowing souls back in.  This doesn't, however, square away the souls passing no further, so I rate it as less plausible.

I think the latter is more likely, as 'tasted his passing' to me reads much more as having noticed his death, just the wording in general. If it meant to imply he ate his soul, I would think 'tasted his soul' or something would fit.

Also, as for the 'shall not pass' line, I always saw that as a reference (from the context) to the unique nature of the battleplain as the location of the No-God's death. They think it is an ongoing issue. This isn't hard evidence against, but Akka doesn't seem to question the prophecy dream for consistency in that aspect. He doesn't say, 'weird that Gilgoal showed up because he wouldn't be able to.'

The Angel of Endless Hunger certainly could be interpreted different ways as well. Note, I'm not adamantly against the idea. I feel like there must be some line about the Gods and the No-God that probably explains it. Just not a reading that feels intuitive to me. But that's just me.

@SmilerLoki, I included those quotes already.

I have no idea how you conclude that Gods with Alzeihmers can do anything. We're talking about an inability to grasp or form memories in creatures that depend entirely on the memories they harvest from souls.

No more babies = no more souls. Maybe they can peer uncomprehendingly through birds or whatnot, but I don't believe the Gods can intercede from the outside.

Well, not to be critical of the analogy, but people with Alzheimer's can influenced the world. Memory issues don't preclude the ability to interact with things. And given Kellhus in the vision, for all we know, he was aiding Gilgoal or Ajokli for some reason. Now, I'm not sure one way or another, I imagine there are other textual statements on the matter. Just saying for the sake of that answer, it isn't clear they could or couldn't manifest influence.

@H - Is that how it works (the Inverse Fire)? Kellhus' statements and the glossary imply to me that whatever they see is a sure thing. Granted, Kellhus may or may not understand the device, but he seems to grasp it quickly. And basically seemed to say 'it finds your soul in eternity then parses it so you can understand in the now'. Which, if that's the case, then the soul is already one way or another. Except for the No-God being the force that can change eternity.

Also, what does Skafra say that implies Celmomas wouldn't have been saved? All I saw from him was mentioning, 'our lord hath tasted thy king's passing', which seemed a reference to just knowing he died.

@TwoMinutesToApocalypse - I know it mentions her seeing a witch as a slender ciphrang above them in the battle.

Quote from: solipsisticurge on August 22, 2017, 07:20:27 pm

Perhaps I misread or misinterpreted it, but wasn't one warrior of the Ordeal saved toward the end? He died and was carried into the arms of Gilgaol or some such.

Sorweel is also saved.

And possibly Celmomas, since Gilgaol takes him after giving him the prophecy. Not completely sure about this, though, need to re-read it.

From what I recall, this was when Akka was seeing Seswatha's vision through Celmomas, so the situation remains in question. And I think he wakes up before he dies as well. But that's the thought he has 'Gilgoal came for him' rather. And sees what he thinks is Gilgoal. Though, with Kellhus in the vision and 'four horns', hard to say.

Hi there,

I haven't really participated in the discussion here, as I rarely have the time to actively follow-up on posts but I've been reading a lot on the forum since I finished TUC. There are two thing that - to my surprise - I haven't seen being discussed and I wonder about your take on them.

(1) There hasn't to my knowledge been a very serious discussion about what the Mutilated mean when they say the No-God can read the code of Earwa by using deaths. Up to this point, the acquired wisdom has been that the No-God is a means to cut off the number of living souls and thus seal Earwa (and maybe other worlds as well) to the Outside. The entire code-reading narrative goes into an altogether different direction, signifying, at least to me, that the Ark was designed to gleam meaning from the specialness of Earwa where the Outside is closest to the physical reality and thus achieve world-sealing in some other, scientific, way.

I find it irritating that while Bakker claimed TUC would reveal or at least hint at who is right and who is wrong w/r/t understanding of Earwan metaphysics, he in fact only introduced further uncertainty. For example, Cet'inigra muses that the Oblivion approach of the Nonmen is fallacious although the text makes special effort to show that at least one Erratic does in fact escape Hell (granted, this might have been a special case, as has been discussed here). The book therefore keeps lacking clear authority on what exactly is the proper way to achieve salvation and what mechanisms allow it, and therefore fails to deliver at least on that front of Bakker's promises.

(2) More excitingly though, don't you find it highly revelatory that unlike Cnaiur/Ajokli, Mimara was in fact able to see the No-God with the Judging Eye? Literally leading to the important conclusion that the eschaton/invisibility argument doesn't extend to the God of Gods itself but just to the Hundred. I think this has immense metaphysical implications, which I am not altogether ready to summarize. It's also noteworthy that her perception of the sarcophagus didn't involve any descriptions of either damnation or salvation that have hitherto been present when she sees other entities with the Eye.

I think the code idea might just relate to how the Tekne works in general, that all things are mechanical. If we think of the universe as sort of a system (souls in, souls out, maybe souls back in or something) then the 'code' would more-so be Ark trying to understand this system through mass-death and how to shut it down. At least that was kind of how I read it, though it still raises the question of why the 144,000 if quantity of death is more important than remainder of life. Given we know the how is important, not the what (human extinction).

Can you elaborate how Cet'inigra implies/says Oblivion is fallacious? I might have just missed that part. I figured his 'we're all damned' thing was more the concept that damnation is nigh universal, not literally so. Unless I missed something specific in his musing. Though, I share your pain in regards to some of the unclearness of the layout of things.

As for the Judging Eye, I actually missed the part until someone pointed it out, and it seems terribly interesting. I really don't have enough on the concept of the Judging Eye, God of Gods, and how they relate/exist. Though, ever since the Survivor, I've felt like it might relate to the idea of Oblivion.

@profgrape - I'm not sure we should consider the No-God soulless. It required a soul, eh?

Do you have a page reference? I imagine it was just his blubbering (or pretend blubbering).