I quite enjoyed the book. The ending was a bit tough to swallow at first, I typically enjoy a happy ending, but we'll see what goes down in the books to come. I think the dark tone helped adjust my expectations given the clear line of people being damned fully on the way to the Ark. But to come so close!

As for the violence, I didn't have issue with it, though I typically prefer darker settings. My expectations were set there long ago from the whole 'we are a race of lovers' scene from whatever book that was.

Quote from: Sausuna on August 18, 2017, 03:53:08 pm

Wouldn't it have to have existed? The Dunyain acknowledge the No-God is necessary for shutting the Outside

For them, in their current situation. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was so before, when the Ark was operational.

Perhaps. I think the question remains one way or another, what unique aspect of even Nau-Cayuti, allowed him (and later Kelmomas) to become the No-God where those thrown in for over a thousand years were insufficient. I can buy the idea that Ark served the function of the No-God and they didn't have one before. But it still doesn't answer what about Nau-Cayuti worked.

@H - I think that raises an interesting question as to whether or not beings of others worlds take the shape of Men or not. Always wondered if the origin of life would ever be explored (given what interesting tidbits there are for the origin of Non-men). Or if aliens also shared the same gods (given we know the Inchoroi creators had a form of worship and were damned). Either way, somehow both Nau Cayuti and Kelmomas shared something beyond blood in regards to their minds that made them suitable. As I said, I just struggle to see what that might be, given they vary greatly in several regards.

Quote from: H on August 18, 2017, 03:40:38 pm

Yeah, perhaps my question wasn't as succinct as it could have been.  It's plausible that this means the Kel was near to Nau, but I thought I by framing it inside a question of "other worlds" it would mean more about the pre-Eärwa insertents, however, that might not be a Bakker took it.

Considering that the Dunsult refer to the No-God as "the prosthesis" of the Ark, and the Ark itself had functioned fully before the Earwan crash-landing, it can't be said with certainty that the No-God existed pre-Earwa.

Wouldn't it have to have existed? The Dunyain acknowledge the No-God is necessary for shutting the Outside and the Inchoroi (or was it that one Wracu) note how they reduced several worlds before. Wouldn't that imply they must have used the No-God in those attempts?

The other option is to accept that the Mutilated based their strategy on the Celmomman prophecy showing Kellhus as the Harbinger. Which seems pretty dumb tbh, seeing as Kelmomas isn't in it.

Well, Kelmomas would be in it, no? Isn't the entire Celmoman prophecy just that an Anasurimbor would return at the end of the world? And Kelmomas is an Anasurimbor. I think they legit believed Kellhus was the No-God, but were willing to accept the idea that Kelmomas might be as a sort of backup. And given his 'I told you they can't see me' line, that'd be a good piece of information to go off of.

I think it kind of went that the Mutilated assumed it was Kellhus based off the prophecy and bloodline. But then when they managed to capture Kellhus and heard his claims about being blind to the gods, figured they might as well try to see if Kellhus would work, but would use Kelmomas all the same if not.


I had the feeling for a long time that Nau Cayuti was meant to be the subject that would be the No-God, but I always thought something unique about his torment related it (so I had a crack-pot theory Kellhus was working with the Consult to torment all the Ordealsmen to recreate that to make a No-God). Anyway! Really have to wonder what about Nau Cayuti that would make him so special. I might need to reread his dream scenes.

Are the swords Alimir and Pitiril meant to be the same sword or tragic misnaming by the Non-men? Not sure if it was mentioned.

Alimir - "Divider" (Ihrimsu). The legendary enscrolled sword of the Kuniuric High-Kings, famed for possessing the Edge Peerless, and when wielded with skill, capable of halving mammoths. Lost at the Battle Eleneot with Anasurimbor Kelmomas in 2146.
Pitiril - Divider (Ihrimsu). Enscrolled blade belonging to the Ishroi Hero Oirinas, lost as the Battle of Pir-Minginnial.

Quote from: Sausuna on August 16, 2017, 04:11:43 pm

I had an off-hand thought.

lmao with the hand puns.

Entirely unintentional. Also, thanks for the edit.

Quote from: Dunkelheit on August 02, 2017, 10:58:37 am

Quote from: bridgeburner on August 01, 2017, 09:50:22 pm

Would The Judging Eye be able to see Kelmomas? If he is invisible to the gods, and the Judging Eye is (I think?) a manifestation of the gods or one god or the god of gods, then would he be invisible to it?

The is a scene in TUC where it does. It sees the whirlwind.

I'm trying to find this scene. I went back and re-read the scene where Mimara first appears at the Umbilicus and there is a scene (though it's from Kel's POV) and it mentions that she seems not to see him at first, seems to look through him, and then she slowly smiles as if he suddenly appears (maybe the Judging Eye closing?). So I think that answers my question. If you happen to find the scene where she sees the whirlwind when looking at him I'd be interested. Thanks.

I think this might be a reference to when she sees the No-God after he descends from the Ark under an illusion. She's the only one who can seemingly see through said illusion.

Quote from: Wilshire on August 16, 2017, 04:20:21 pm

I was being kinda tongue-in-cheek with the description, but apparently Kellhus' "markless" magic - like him levitating at the last whelming (Kelmomas said he couldn't see him doing sorcery) had nothing to do with Ajokli. All Kellhus magic all the way.

Kellhus has learned so much about sorcery that he has developed some magics that are, more or less, indistinguishable from the world.

That's got a whole lot of implications.

Well, there really isn't anything to keep Kellhus from spiking the Meta-Gnosis with the Psûkhe, besides the fact that he still has his eyes.  Yet, from the lesson of Titirga, while it helps to be blind in developing the Water, the Psûkhe can still be used while sighted.  Perhaps Kellhus was on the trail of the Psûkhe and in the last encounter with Meppa he discovered the last few things he needed to know in order to wield it.  We simply don't know how things would work together, because no one, besides Kellhus, really knows (much) more than one of the Gnosis/Anagogis/Psûkhe.  Further adding the Daimos complicates things even more so.

Perhaps even Titirga could have devised something like this, had he lived longer.  Then again, he didn't have the Meta-Gnosis, so we don't know how many "inutterals" he could muster.

Well, the biggest issue with Kellhus using the Psûkhe would be the same issue Moënghus has, no?

Whenever I thought about Titirga, I always figured he was using aspects of the Psûkhe by accident. That he using the Gnosis while adding in his passion semi-learned from his youthful period of blindness.