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Messages - H

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The Unholy Consult / Re: Collapse of Object and Subject
« on: June 21, 2021, 04:20:37 pm »
Well, it was Celmomas II, not necessarily Nau-Cayûti (who was the first No-God) who we know to be a twin.  We don't know if Nau was or was not though.  It could be that he was and somehow some process of twinning divorces the soul from a specific body.  It could also just be that the process little Kel undergoes (hypnotism of sorts?) does the same.  It's totally unclear why makes one "suitable" for No-God operation.  But it must be rather uncommon.  Just being a twin seems unlikely, given how many people were stuffed in there over the years.

If just being a twin was sufficient, it likely would have works just by blind luck.  However, being a twin might be necessary, but not quite sufficient.  What the sufficient condition might further be is a subsequent sort of divorce between the soul and (possibly, maybe) the larger ethical realm (read: Spirit, the Soul, the Outside).

General Misc. / Re: What are you watching?
« on: June 21, 2021, 01:37:14 pm »
Snuck up on me, but War of the Worlds (from Fox/Epix/Canal+) is back on.  If you can understand French, all the season 2 episodes have aired, but Epix is over halfway though the show now too (I guess with an English dub?).

As I'm not sure the Heron Spear actually did anything last time, I do think its possible some kind of magic laser ballista scenario this time around with Akka pulling the trigger.

Well, there is that dream where Akka sees Anaxophus failing to "take up the Spear" and just parroting the No-God's words.  But it is totally unclear if that is a clear vision of the past, or a paranoids corruption of the true.  I guess one thing is that it leaves the Herron Spear well and open to be anything the narrative ends up wanting it to be though.

General Misc. / Re: What are you watching?
« on: June 01, 2021, 01:26:16 pm »

Huh, might have to check this out.

If you weren't watching Mare of Easttown though, I think it is another good option.  Nothing revolutionary, but the show (to me) is very well written and well acted, even if it is a bit formulaic.  But it doesn't pull any punches really.  The show is complete as on Sunday, 7 episodes.

That should in all likelihood decrease with time, since random collision events, not to mention the entire thing just can't be that stable (especially while also moving), 'cause, you know, physics.

Physics?  This is Eärwa!

I mean, I am thinking this lack of Chorae is going to matter, but it definitely is unclear how or why.  Especially since I am holding fast to my "Mimara answers the No-God" prediction, of course.

And this is why I think that they didn't wait because there was nothing to wait for, meaning the Chorae are no longer needed and not just removed for the sake of a prospective Insertant.

It could be, but it could also be that they really did not fully understand why they were there, or discount the threat that Sorcery could ultimately pose to it.  They might well figure it doesn't matter, since most of the Sorcerers in the "known" world are now dead or dying.  What they don't (and likely could not) realize is that the Sorcery of Zeûm is really strong and that Meppa is not dead.

Ultimately we just can't know, we can only see if this is a sort of Chekov's Gun waiting to be used in some manner or other, or just a red herring.

It's actually Malowebi thinking it.

Oh, yeah, forgot who's perspective we are in there.

They aren't exactly in a hurry after the System is Resumed, nothing is threatening them by that point (the Ordeal is contained and its Aspect-Emperor is salt). And if there are significant technical issues with affixing the Chorae back on, I would be inclined to believe they are somehow part of the entire design and not just protection. Not that the No-God even needed it to begin with, too - while fully operational it's too high up to reach with Cants. This is why I think the Dunyain did something with the System, it's not exactly the same as it was before, so the removal of the Chorae isn't just a simple precaution, it's perhaps something more ominous.

Well, I mean, they likely shouldn't be, but they rush the Sarcophagus right back out there soon after.  We know the Ordeal could hardly do anything to them, but seemingly they are still worried about it and want the No-God to finish them, since they run it out there with little to no delay.  Should they have waited?  Probably, but either they were too eager, or after putting little Kel in, they can't really keep with totally under wraps.

Also they likely can't wait to try little Kel, since they need to know if he works as soon as possible, since there is a real chance that the rest of the kids are out there dead or dying.

I heavily dispute this reasoning. In this case, first, they had enough time to put the Chorae back on after ultimately going with Kelmomas. Second, it is absolutely unclear that the Chorae would even damage the Insertant, since the Carapace is thick enough to serve as protection - the Chorae are on the outside of it, while the Insertant is inside.

Well, I was slightly incorrect, it's Kellhus thinking this is why, not them saying it.  In any case though, I am not sure why you think they'd have that time though.  I mean, from our abstract, third person knowledge, we do know they likely have plenty of time, but they stuff little Kel in there post-haste, so they seemingly don't think they do.  We also have no idea how the Chorae are affixed though, so we don't know really how long it would take really.

It's easier for me to believe the Consult/Dunsult is ignorant of how to start the No-God than it is for me to believe they're just pretending to try to kill Kellhus to lure him in.  All the while ignoring any of his more accessible offspring or ishualian relations for 20 years.

Well, I think you are 100% correct, they do not know, they are just guessing.  But, I'd still contend that they (for whatever reason) consider it likely that Kellhus is the "right fit" or, at least, not the wrong fit.  In other words, since they have no real idea what makes it work, they are looking to try any and all ideas.  Which might explain why they take the Chorae off, in case Serwa needs to go in, or whoever else is left.  They also have no idea if the Chorae might kill the Insertant or not, so why risk it?

Speaking of the Dunyain all having Anasurimbor blood - I think Bakker is making an effort to counter this argument when he talks about the Twelve Germs (if memory serves), of which the Anasurimbor one is the most promising. Since the Germs are pointedly named as different from each other, I get the idea that the Dunyain in their generational selection quest were strict about keeping the lineages separated.

Yeah, I agree here very much.  I do not believe that all Dunyain are Anasurimbors.  In fact, I think it is very much the opposite case, that they were actively working toward isolating the lineage into that one germline.  Whether that is of some "mystical" importantance or a way of distilling out the distant Nonman relation, who knows though.

Oh yeah, this should probably be moved.  I don't know how to spoiler tag from my phone, so I'll refrain from posting more.

No need, I split off the topic and moved it to TUC, so we can post away, spoiler tag free.

I am not sold on the Dunsult knowing it needs Kellhus, nor even that he could be an insertant.

But they did, it's why they took the Chorae off the Carapace.

They even say as much:
“And you think I’m the missing piece?” Kellhus asked. “The Subject that will revive this ... system?”

Was that why the Chorae had been removed from the Carapace? For him? It seemed to Malowebi that he strangled ...

The nearest of the disfigured Dûnyain, the burnt one, nodded. “The Celmomian Prophecy foretells your coming, Brother.”

I also just realized that we are in the TGO section.  Should we spoiler this stuff, or move it to the TUC section?

I don't know, I still think that even if Dagliash goes perfectly well for the Consult there is essentially near zero chance that Kellhus himself is killed.  The aim is likely to reduce the Ordeal itself to near inoperability, so that when Kellhus arrives, he will not be aided.  Granted, near zero is not zero, but the Consult likely has to risk it, because they can't allow the Ordeal to just walk up to the door, that has too many confounding variables to account for really.

So, I think it's a little odd, no doubt, but it has some sense to it.  Is it risky?  Yes.  But is it more or less risky than just letting Kellhus do whatever he wants?  Unclear, but likely not too much either way.

Another thing to consider is that the Consult still is playing some manner of charades.  They have to "pretend" that they want to kill Kellhus, because deliberately avoiding killing him would be a dead giveaway of their whole plan.  Which means Kellhus might suss it out and fail to show up.  The crux might well be that they don't know that Kellhus' plan is specifically to waltz in regardless of what they do, so they have to lure him somehow and not tip their hand.

It might work better in thinking that Dagliash is really a risky demonstration.  I think they realize that post-Metagnosis, they cannot possibly threaten Kellhus' person, so they take to a dog and pony show in order to convince him that they have the more effective way of dealing with the "Damnation problem."  That isn't without some risk, but again, the allow Kellhus to realize that they have no interest in killing him is probably even more risky.  Along with the fact that an intact Ordeal is likely a unneeded confounding variable in the whole plan.

Thousandfold Thought edition, premieres on 5/22.

Well, you are right, I cannot conclusively prove that Wracu have souls, which is why it's a prior, not a conclusion.  However, one thing is not a conclusive "test" though.  Inchoroi came off the Ark with souls, but could not preform sorcery.  So, just notionally having a soul isn't actually enough to use sorcery, which is why they needed to resort to Grafts to see the Onta.  It could well be that Wracu have souls, but not ability to see the Onta.

However, I am willing to concede that I simply take Bakker's extra-textual comment at face value.  But it could readily be the case that, say, only Wutteät has a soul and all descendent Wracu do not.  I don't know that they text provides anything conclusive either way.  Admittedly, part of this comes, for me personally, from the manner in which Skafra speaks but that hardly proves anything.

Well, to me, these are the seeming "facts" I am try reconcile:

1.) Wracu have souls.

2.) The Inchoroi made Wracu.

It's hard to deny 2, so we can either deny 1, or find a way to justify why 1 would be true where everything else the Inchoroi made lacked souls.  I personally think that there are ways to do this, but other's results might differ.

The Inchoroi being able to create beings with souls really breaks the majority of the worldbuilding that we have. If they could do that, then they'd have legions of sranc sorcerers, skin-spy schoolman armies, and Wracu that spit wards and powerful Gnostic warcants. There'd be no Second Apocalypse since the first time around they would have been successful.

But we do know they can make souled beings.  Or rather, we know they could.  Because the Inchoroi themselves are manufactured and have souls.  Granted, they lost that ability eventually, but they had enough understanding to still use the grafts.  So what it might be is a sort of graft attempting to unify what might have been left of germinating Inchoroi and inserted Wutteät DNA as a graft.

Really, I think there is enough in the text to explain it either way we want to go.

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