[Cuttlefish]

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So, Bakker is definitely the kind of writer who could just let the world die, in his book. But then, what would be the point? So I expect someone to save the world.

One of these characters (who may appear dead, but it's not quite certain until the next book comes out I imagine) will probably save the world. Which one, or which combination is the likeliest, do you think? I'm voting Crabhand, I can't see a point to him if he doesn't pick up where his grandfather left off.

[Edit: Modified for spoiler tags]

[H]

I think there needs to be another Other category, at least...

[MisterGuyMan]

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It's either Kellhus or Outside Kellhus that will save everyone.  With an outside chance of one of those versions of Kellhus serving the Obi-Wan role to whoever the next generation savior will be, probably Crab Hand.

Some meta analysis:

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Also agree with the meta analysis.  If the end of the series was originally intended be a the No God's return only then there's no point of writing two more books of humans methodically dying off.  The one revelation that I can see being removed from the ending scenes of TUC but can still extended into a finale series is some sort of bootstrap paradox with Kellhus.  In the original cut, Kellhus reveals he was guiding everything from the Outside.  In the new cut he appears to die but the next series explains how Outside Kellhus forced this or allowed this to happen to past Kellhus.  Otherwise the old cut is pretty much unchanged with a two book epilogue about how all the humans die.

[Wilshire]

Some meta analysis:

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Also agree with the meta analysis.  If the end of the series was originally intended be a the No God's return only then there's no point of writing two more books of humans methodically dying off.  The one revelation that I can see being removed from the ending scenes of TUC but can still extended into a finale series is some sort of bootstrap paradox with Kellhus.  In the original cut, Kellhus reveals he was guiding everything from the Outside.  In the new cut he appears to die but the next series explains how Outside Kellhus forced this or allowed this to happen to past Kellhus.  Otherwise the old cut is pretty much unchanged with a two book epilogue about how all the humans die.

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I think we'll have a similar repeat of the 1st apocalypse, though sans Heron Spear, so there's a great chance everyone dies. Either way, most of TSTSNBN will be either the extinction or near extinction of humanity.

Moenghus lost. Kellhus lost. Koringhus lost. Serwe lost. What we've got left to save the world is Zeum, and Akka will be there to watch the end of the world (again, again) with King Zeum playing Anaxphoros.

I vote Esmenet's son - which, btw, bastard son of seswatha and Celmomas' Wife - as playing a major role (stealing into Golgotterath with Akka and recovering the Heron Spear?), but ultimately it'll be whoever King Zeum is who gets to pull the trigger.

Repeating history repeating.

edit: also, if you still want Kellhus to be around, then he's Ajokli and always has been, and he's already lost (again) too.

[Cuttlefish]

I think there needs to be another Other category, at least...

Fixed!

[MisterGuyMan]

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I think we'll have a similar repeat of the 1st apocalypse, though sans Heron Spear, so there's a great chance everyone dies....also, if you still want Kellhus to be around, then he's Ajokli and always has been, and he's already lost (again) too.

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It's possible the SA just mimics the first.  One would assume that Bakker's original vision would have been drastically changed from a complete human defeat to an eventual human victory.  I'm assuming that the skeleton of the story remained fundamentally the same but the end is just expanded.  So I don't see how that can work without some time shenanigans.

I don't believe Ajokli failed in this hypothetical.  If he's Kellhus then he threaded the exact sequence of events that would cause mortal Kellhus to become Ajokli.  If he didn't blind him to Kelmomas, Kellhus just kills everyone as normal.  Just as Kellhus sacrificed Proyas, Outside Kellhus would have no qualms about sacrificing mortal Kellhus to complete the paradox.  It would be so badass to use his past self as an unwitting Tool.  Kelmomas himself is probably being conditioned too by some one and the obvious narrative eliminates the Gods since they're supposedly blind to him.  But if Ajokli is guiding him then it makes sense since only Kellhus needs to be blind to him. 

Other observations include how Kellhus would become a Ciphrang in death according to what he sees in the inverse fire.  Merk is fodder but Kell sees himself descend as hunger.  As I understand it Ajokli would pretty much just claim Kellhus at this point because of the Daimos pact or whatever.  Kellhus becoming Ciphrang rather than Ajokli bread would contradict this.  Kellhus communing with the No-God might explain Ajokli's unique ability to sense him. 

Sammi being a voice from Outside and the Head on a Pole thing are still issues I'm mulling over as I restart my Aspect Emperor reread.

[Yellow]

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Definitely think Akka will play a Seswatha role, but Mimara will be the difference in the end.

As for the Heron Spear - I think this will be found at some point.
I thought the Consult would have it, because the Scylvendi took it when they sacked Cenei... But I guess not or they would have used it at Golgoterath. 

[Madness]

Stole my nephew's computer momentarily. As a child of the 90s I can solidly say that you don't notice how frequently people in the Western Empire use their technology until you don't have any yourself.

Crabicus is now and forever the definitive name for the Boy until Bakker deems otherwise. Make it so.

 Also, added the unknown unknowns category.

[Cuttlefish]

Mimara

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Doesn't she lose the Judging Eye when she gives birth? I thought the Judging Eye was her seeing the world via the infant in her belly, which is closer to God of Gods

[Hiro]

Mimara

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Doesn't she lose the Judging Eye when she gives birth? I thought the Judging Eye was her seeing the world via the infant in her belly, which is closer to God of Gods

In TJE it is explained she had the sight before getting pregnant.

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Also, after having just read TUC, after a non-stop reread, I must admit to not feeling up to a 3rd series with enormous parallels to the First Apocalypse and all. It seems that Bakker has already spent 7 books drawing parallels, playing and developing variations. Although it makes sense that it will continue in such a manner, I'm fairly saturated, and I'd prefer something fresher. That may change in time, of course.

[H]

Stole my nephew's computer momentarily. As a child of the 90s I can solidly say that you don't notice how frequently people in the Western Empire use their technology until you don't have any yourself.

Crabicus is now and forever the definitive name for the Boy until Bakker deems otherwise. Make it so.

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Indeed, Crabicus is cannon until proved otherwise.

So must Akka Jr. though.

[Werthead]

In TJE it is explained she had the sight before getting pregnant.

The JE is not bound by linear chronology: you get it because you are pregnant at some point in your timeline and pre-ordained to get it, and you then have it backwards and forwards in time.

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Mimara definitely has it after giving birth. She uses it on Kellhus, to apocalyptic effect.

[nicodante]

After all the mentions so far, the Heron Spear has to show up in TSTSNBN - it's the biggest Chekhov's gun ever by this point!


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[nicodante]

After all the mentions so far, the Heron Spear has to show up in TSTSNBN - it's the biggest Chekhov's gun ever by this point!


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I'm betting Akka will act as Seswatha to Crabicus, and to his own son also, with help from moenghus


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[UncriticalTheory]

Fear not, He is the greater mystery.