I think there's the possibility of a pact between Kellhus and Ajokli, I'm just not one who truly thinks there was. I brought this up because I profgrape thinks there isn't a pact, why would the Ordeal be used to get Ajokli to the GR?
For me, it's more a question of what particular writing cues make the "deal/pact" interpretation seemingly generally-accepted.
On profgrape's line - as we're something of amicable foils on these subjects - I think he's referring to the fact that Ajokli does apparently share the similarity to the other Gods in that they have the advantage/disadvantage of their perspective of time. He looks across time and he maybe sees only one human that makes it to the place where the connection comes online.
I do think that the God in Celmomas' Dream is actually Gilgaol but MG's interpretation of it being Ajokli seems equally valid by the text and Bakker's extratextual comments.
Here's what I think and it goes back to "the living shall not haunt the dead". They (Gods) "pondered" Kellhus and he evidently talked to them about the NG via the Diamos. No deal need be struck. But, Ajokli could have seen Kellhus's power and used it as a vehicle to create a "hell on Earth". I'm spitballing here, so I'll have to think on it some more.
Right, so go further on with that thought - Ajokli is the missing piece regarding all of Kellhus' conditioned ground from Ishual to Golgotterath since he can look for the best pawn across all of time (or you can go MG with it all the way and suggest that Ajokli is responsible for the Dunyain at all
). Kellhus would seem to be Ajokli's one chance at gaining access to Earwa and accomplishing his "goal," whatever the noosphere here is digesting that to be.
Perhaps, he is actually depending on his Daughter and the Ordeal to gain the Upright Horn and assist him.
This just doesn't work for me. If he needed their help, he shouldn't have gone into the Golden Room alone. He had every opportunity not to do so.
Damn, you all have been hashing this out. It's great
.
That's true - perhaps, as others have suggested, Ajokli compromised his restraint, though I don't like that.
To be honest, as far is my reading goes, I think besting Aurang convinced Kellhus that he would meet Dunyain ("Fear not, Iswazi, we walk conditioned ground" (bp)). Kellhus thought he was going to be able take the Mutilated. Their combat comes down to the pure-Dunyain argument, regarding, as noted by profgrape and H, the (second) use of Cause in the novels and Kellhus thought he was going to convince them.
Thereafter though, as some readers have noted that they haven't liked Kellhus' almost inappropriate expression humour/mischievousness at crucial moments in TAE, but TGO/TUC especially, I think Ajokli starts owning more and more of Kellhus' actions/words (if not all
) and Ajokli truly knows he can toy with the Mutilated in the Golden Room.
It depends, for example, on who we attribute the line about striking deals with the Pit to. While I do think it's interesting to ponder Ajokli saying that (I didn't think that at all until you mentioned it), ultimately it seems far less likely to me than Kellhus making a pact with Ajokli to use a divine agency against the Consult as a countermeasure for Tekne and in general the unknowns of the Ark.
Maybe. It's worth teasing out for me - as I've said, I seem to rely on the evidence that Ajokli is different than the others gods, sometimes companion or foil, manifests differently, etc. Actually, I finished reading the Glossary recently and was reminded that Ajokli is Gierra's "faithless" husband (prostitute Goddess
).
The plan very much seemed to be going ahead of schedule.
+1
(I can't really buy that some couple of miles make the difference)
There has to be some manifest line? I personally think it must be the point Kakaliol is able to take Iyokus and when Kellhus crosses through the Threshold, that fancy Sorcerous-Tekne door.
[EDIT] Another important thing that comes to mind is Kellhus using sorcery before his head gets engulfed in flames, but not during that time. Do we think that a God, even possessing a mortal, would be able to use sorcery? At the moment of entering the Golden Room the possession would need to be almost complete, so there is basically no Kellhus left, it's Ajokli uttering Metagnostic Cants.
We similarly asked this question after TGO regarding Ciphrang-Malowebi. For my part, I was curious as to whether or not Ciphrang-Malowebi would be limited to Malowebi's skill with the Iswazi (is that right?) or basically unlock Ciphrang-level Sorcerous understanding? (Also, holy fuck, it's mentioned in the Glossary that the Mbimayu have like a 120-something fetishes on them at all times in their sorcery-appropriate fashion wear?!)
I'm not sure where you are getting the assumptions that he was close enough previously. If anything, I would say we're shown and told that him getting close is precisely an important thing.
- We're told a couple times by Bakker in his Q&A that Kellhus' possession was 1. a gradual process and 2. got worse the closer he got to the Ark.
- Think on Kakaliol, the ciphrang we see a couple point of view entries on. It isn't until he's literally right next to the massive torpos of the Ark that he can slip his bindings to escape. He was right next to it, trapped. And only once nearly touching it.
So it certainly makes sense to me that Ajokli likely couldn't manifest as he did until they were in the golden room a bit.
+1
I have no desire to dispute this, because it simply works. But the moment of possession is clearly outlined in the narrative by Kellhus's head bursting into flames (just like the moment Kalakiol gets freedom is outlined).
This is muddied by the fact that once Malowebi starts looking through the Soggomant reflection at the happening of happenings, he periodically comments on the obfuscation of Kellhus' reflection and doesn't tie it to the other Decapitant for the reader until he looks at it - which is moments still before Kellhus' head goes full Ghost Rider.
I don't see the issue, but you're acting as though the whole 'getting more possessed as he got closer' thing is an entirely arbitrary measure. Again, certainly, we don't know a lot about daemonic possession or the Daimos overall. But I don't see literally being inside the most severe torpos as a weird qualified for a god manifesting. I don't think the Kakaliol is exactly the same situation, but I think we can use it to extrapolate that being a foot away from or inside the Ark is what makes the difference.
Also, Yatwer manifests physically in WLW only where a "great Lord died" (bp) and Bakker's since confirmed things like individuals accruing Damnation in life to become Ciphrang in death and the various sized shards of the God (fucking extratextually jacking Sanderson
).
I admittedly forgot they used sorcery at that point. Though, it doesn't really note how many possess it or to what degree.
Well, I think it's safe to say they didn't think they could take Kellhus with sorcery given that they had all those Skin-Spies on hand with Chorae tied to their palms
.
Since Kellhus was able to develop Metagnosis almost instantly, assuming at least that level of proficiency seems reasonable.
Sure but Kellhus also head twenty years - a number of those ahead of the Mutilated.
I feel that in this regard the Ordeal is both a contingency and a convenience. The former is fairly obvious. In the case of the latter, let's say Kellhus deals with the Consult without the Ordeal. There is still the Ark that needs to be scrutinized (Kellhus can't be in many places at once), hosts that need to be exterminated, Erratics that need to be cleared out of the Ark, a dragon that needs to learn to respect women, and so on. Not to mention Kellhus needs to sleep, eat, and isn't a stranger to comfort.
Also, basically moving his base of operations (i.e. the Great Ordeal) closer and closer to Golgotterath allowed Kellhus to preserve his strength instead of exerting himself with continuous Translocations. He wasn't in his top form when he came for Esmenet at the end of TGO.
Lol, +1.
If Kellhus really wasn't aware of Ajokli's presence in him, what else made him think he was walking into Conditioned Ground? In a place he had never been?
It mirrors his journey in PON, except this time he doesn't have a phone call from the Mutilated (Moenghus the Elder) ahead of time - but as Kellhus and the Mutilated discuss, Kellhus suspected the possibility and the use of the Nuke started exposing their agency.
I use that name because I really don't understand why it has to be a binary split between the two. I don't believe there even is a line where Kellhus ends and Ajokli begins.
It's possible that the Amiolas serves as a cipher. What does Oiranal say to Sorweel? Possession is best served by the unaware donning soul (bp).
edit - To elaborate a little more while my thoughts are still on this, it seems especially clear with the conversation at the IF. Kellhus was already prepared to gaze into it, because he already mastered his damnation as hunger (i.e. before the full "possession"). The afterlife is a circumstance he has already become the dominator of. That's obviously what he got out of the relationship, whereas Ajokli's presence/vision into the World was his gain from the pact.
That much seemed implicit to me, but it's also interesting to hear from another POV where it's not.
I find it interesting to consider that Ajokli isn't necessarily master in the Hells.
But I wonder how people reconcile Kellhus' knowledge of the "darkness" without knowledge of Ajokli. He trained for thirty years to know and conquer the darkness within, but (talking to Proyas, IIRC) he just sort of accepts it as being there, and doesn't seem concerned about his lack of mastery of it? Why? I'd argue that it's because he's already accepted it as Ajokli.
Well, if we want to reconcile Bakker's extratextual comments with the text, Kellhus is unaware.
But as I mentioned upthread to profgrape, the dude is busy. If Kellhus had had the time to sit down and make it his Study, I'm sure he could have figured it out, though this would make him undesirable to Ajokli in the first place - hell, maybe Kellhus even did figure it out by the reading of the "contingencies" camp. But in text, especially with his extratextual comments, Bakker almost paints a naive picture of Kellhus. An earnest Kellhus who was just doing his darnedest, utilitarian effort to "save the World," as he saw it.
I've been afraid to pollute this killer conversation
Lol, stahhppp. Just dive in and engage. Express yourself
.
Cleric was aware of his own possession as well.
Was he? It doesn't seem like he ever made any comment on what happened to him in Cil-Aujas.
I do think Bakker expects too much of us to have understood all of that on our own, so the conversation/debate going on here is valid.
+1
Why would he make a pact w/the pit. He is the pit. The lord of hate does not make a pact w/his servants. I do not make a pact w/an ant that crosses my kitchen.
Wb, Rots. Thought we'd lost you
.
We just don't know that Ajokli being master of Hell is the case, though.
who cares what Kayu thinks (hes basically a worthless character, imo).
Aw. I liked Kayutas. Some of my favorite moments in the series are the early martial exploits by Kellhus and Cnaiur. Kayutas got a small moment like that when he takes out Grimmel (I think?) in the Council of the Believer-Kings in TUC but that's not enough. I'd like to see him take on a Skin-Spy in full Cartilage-Octopus mode.
Its still TBD who tricked whom in the Kellhus vs Ajokli contest. We have no way of knowing until TNG appears in a few years. And as for Ajokli needing to be w/in X distance of the GR/topos to manifest that doesnt explain how he can then manifest as Cnauir, unless TNG is a whirlwind of topos, which i dont buy.
Or Cnaiur is within the same arbitrary gradient threshold. The Horde parts for him a good deal as they previously did for Sibuwal.
Is the power that Ajokli can possess anyone he wants if they close in near/to a Topos?
Well, it seems to me that it's either a sufficiently Damned/Holy/Redeemed individual or Topoi or both
?
If we're to believe Ajokli was speaking to Kellhus as far back as The Holy War, it might be his use of an Inversion made him more susceptible to the possession in the first place. Not that I'm claiming there wasn't some sort of deal, as I noted above. Just that possession isn't confirmation of a deal.
+1
Whispering and whispering.
Oh, this reminds me of something I need to quote to the Ajokli's Motivation thread - Kellhus recalls a moment with the Vision/Voice in TGO where (assumptively) Ajokli, appearing as Kellhus (with no haloes), tells him that he wars with the God and that "burning the fields" is how to awaken him. Crucial, as this both makes Ajokli an enemy of the Gods (who feed on the granary) and of the God itself, for whatever inscrutable Ajokli reasons
.
Well, I don't think we can discount that Kellhus might have known of his own demise.
He even intimates to Proyas: "The thing—the most horrific thing to understand, Proyas, is that at some point the Inchoroi must win."
So, I don't think it is all together implausible to think that Kellhus prepared himself for some eventuality of failure, even if he was unaware of what that failure would be. I do think that Kellhus was purposely allowing Ajokli to work through him, plausibly he might have thought he could exercise some control, or perhaps not. I don't think that is the point though, the point was to deliver Ajokli to the Golden Room.
Bakker tells us that the Thousandfold Thought failed though. This is because it was predicated to win. But Kellhus already knew, as per the quote above, that the whole endeavor was doomed to fail. The question, of course, is not what Kellhus had planned (because the Golden Room was a singularity, a place which, past it, the rules are different and nothing can be inferred) but rather, what contingencies were he prepared for. His own death certainly seems like something he, at least, should have considered.
As such, it doesn't surprise me that Bakker would tell us that Kellhus is dead, but is not done.
See, profgrape, H and others are writing your thread for you
.
I really hate the 'Inchoroi must win' line. Maybe it just has to do with the idea of how eternity works in the Outside. Further, Bakker's answer on the topic, was far too vague.
1. Why did Kellhus say to Proyas that the Inchoroi must win? Was he arguing from the perspective of the Consult?
1) Is that what he says?
I feel like there has to be some understanding of the text I'm not able to grasp. Either that his comments are somehow more in regards to specifically the Gods in relation to The Ark. I've even vaguely considered what he says may have been influenced by Ajokli at that point or some differing metaphysical understanding, given that he didn't even know the No-God was necessary before the Golden Room. Or perhaps that The Ark may lay outside Eternity in some other manner. I'm not sure. Given that Ajokli literally stood in The Ark, it seems weird to consider him still blind to it. As well that he seemed capable of perceiving the Skin Spies.
+1
I can even somewhat get the Gods looking-backwards across the Block-Universe vantage but I don't get how the agency and events of that Block-Universe can then change the very shape and perspective of those Gods looking-backwards across the Block-Universe. Bakker did say in the Q&A here that even he gets headaches thinking this shit through
.
