[TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

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« Reply #135 on: October 13, 2017, 01:31:57 pm »
I really hate the 'Inchoroi must win' line. Maybe it just has to do with the idea of how eternity works in the Outside. Further, Bakker's answer on the topic, was far too vague.

Quote
1. Why did Kellhus say to Proyas that the Inchoroi must win? Was he arguing from the perspective of the Consult?
1) Is that what he says?
I feel like there has to be some understanding of the text I'm not able to grasp. Either that his comments are somehow more in regards to specifically the Gods in relation to The Ark. I've even vaguely considered what he says may have been influenced by Ajokli at that point or some differing metaphysical understanding, given that he didn't even know the No-God was necessary before the Golden Room. Or perhaps that The Ark may lay outside Eternity in some other manner. I'm not sure. Given that Ajokli literally stood in The Ark, it seems weird to consider him still blind to it. As well that he seemed capable of perceiving the Skin Spies.

Anyway, on the specific thought of contingency - maybe. But I don't think Kellhus thought the entire endeavor would fail specifically. He makes note that the eventuality of human extinction may take place ages in the future. Even had Kellhus managed to slay The Consult, the possibility of others taking up their work would remain unless he could utterly destroy The Ark. And given the only thing we've seen damage it is a lazer weapon he didn't know about, that seems a nearly impossible prospect.


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« Reply #136 on: October 13, 2017, 04:55:06 pm »
I think there's the possibility of a pact between Kellhus and Ajokli, I'm just not one who truly thinks there was. I brought this up because I profgrape thinks there isn't a pact, why would the Ordeal be used to get Ajokli to the GR?

For me, it's more a question of what particular writing cues make the "deal/pact" interpretation seemingly generally-accepted.

On profgrape's line - as we're something of amicable foils on these subjects - I think he's referring to the fact that Ajokli does apparently share the similarity to the other Gods in that they have the advantage/disadvantage of their perspective of time. He looks across time and he maybe sees only one human that makes it to the place where the connection comes online.

I do think that the God in Celmomas' Dream is actually Gilgaol but MG's interpretation of it being Ajokli seems equally valid by the text and Bakker's extratextual comments.

Here's what I think and it goes back to "the living shall not haunt the dead". They (Gods) "pondered" Kellhus and he evidently talked to them about the NG via the Diamos. No deal need be struck. But, Ajokli could have seen Kellhus's power and used it as a vehicle to create a "hell on Earth". I'm spitballing here, so I'll have to think on it some more.

Right, so go further on with that thought - Ajokli is the missing piece regarding all of Kellhus' conditioned ground from Ishual to Golgotterath since he can look for the best pawn across all of time (or you can go MG with it all the way and suggest that Ajokli is responsible for the Dunyain at all ;)). Kellhus would seem to be Ajokli's one chance at gaining access to Earwa and accomplishing his "goal," whatever the noosphere here is digesting that to be.

Perhaps, he is actually depending on his Daughter and the Ordeal to gain the Upright Horn and assist him.
This just doesn't work for me. If he needed their help, he shouldn't have gone into the Golden Room alone. He had every opportunity not to do so.

Damn, you all have been hashing this out. It's great :).

That's true - perhaps, as others have suggested, Ajokli compromised his restraint, though I don't like that.

To be honest, as far is my reading goes, I think besting Aurang convinced Kellhus that he would meet Dunyain ("Fear not, Iswazi, we walk conditioned ground" (bp)). Kellhus thought he was going to be able take the Mutilated. Their combat comes down to the pure-Dunyain argument, regarding, as noted by profgrape and H, the (second) use of Cause in the novels and Kellhus thought he was going to convince them.

Thereafter though, as some readers have noted that they haven't liked Kellhus' almost inappropriate expression humour/mischievousness at crucial moments in TAE, but TGO/TUC especially, I think Ajokli starts owning more and more of Kellhus' actions/words (if not all ;)) and Ajokli truly knows he can toy with the Mutilated in the Golden Room.

It depends, for example, on who we attribute the line about striking deals with the Pit to. While I do think it's interesting to ponder Ajokli saying that (I didn't think that at all until you mentioned it), ultimately it seems far less likely to me than Kellhus making a pact with Ajokli to use a divine agency against the Consult as a countermeasure for Tekne and in general the unknowns of the Ark.

Maybe. It's worth teasing out for me - as I've said, I seem to rely on the evidence that Ajokli is different than the others gods, sometimes companion or foil, manifests differently, etc. Actually, I finished reading the Glossary recently and was reminded that Ajokli is Gierra's "faithless" husband (prostitute Goddess ;)).

The plan very much seemed to be going ahead of schedule.

+1

(I can't really buy that some couple of miles make the difference)

There has to be some manifest line? I personally think it must be the point Kakaliol is able to take Iyokus and when Kellhus crosses through the Threshold, that fancy Sorcerous-Tekne door.

[EDIT] Another important thing that comes to mind is Kellhus using sorcery before his head gets engulfed in flames, but not during that time. Do we think that a God, even possessing a mortal, would be able to use sorcery? At the moment of entering the Golden Room the possession would need to be almost complete, so there is basically no Kellhus left, it's Ajokli uttering Metagnostic Cants.

We similarly asked this question after TGO regarding Ciphrang-Malowebi. For my part, I was curious as to whether or not Ciphrang-Malowebi would be limited to Malowebi's skill with the Iswazi (is that right?) or basically unlock Ciphrang-level Sorcerous understanding? (Also, holy fuck, it's mentioned in the Glossary that the Mbimayu have like a 120-something fetishes on them at all times in their sorcery-appropriate fashion wear?!)

I'm not sure where you are getting the assumptions that he was close enough previously. If anything, I would say we're shown and told that him getting close is precisely an important thing.
- We're told a couple times by Bakker in his Q&A that Kellhus' possession was 1. a gradual process and 2. got worse the closer he got to the Ark.
- Think on Kakaliol, the ciphrang we see a couple point of view entries on. It isn't until he's literally right next to the massive torpos of the Ark that he can slip his bindings to escape. He was right next to it, trapped. And only once nearly touching it.
So it certainly makes sense to me that Ajokli likely couldn't manifest as he did until they were in the golden room a bit.

+1

I have no desire to dispute this, because it simply works. But the moment of possession is clearly outlined in the narrative by Kellhus's head bursting into flames (just like the moment Kalakiol gets freedom is outlined).

This is muddied by the fact that once Malowebi starts looking through the Soggomant reflection at the happening of happenings, he periodically comments on the obfuscation of Kellhus' reflection and doesn't tie it to the other Decapitant for the reader until he looks at it - which is moments still before Kellhus' head goes full Ghost Rider.

I don't see the issue, but you're acting as though the whole 'getting more possessed as he got closer' thing is an entirely arbitrary measure. Again, certainly, we don't know a lot about daemonic possession or the Daimos overall. But I don't see literally being inside the most severe torpos as a weird qualified for a god manifesting. I don't think the Kakaliol is exactly the same situation, but I think we can use it to extrapolate that being a foot away from or inside the Ark is what makes the difference.

Also, Yatwer manifests physically in WLW only where a "great Lord died" (bp) and Bakker's since confirmed things like individuals accruing Damnation in life to become Ciphrang in death and the various sized shards of the God (fucking extratextually jacking Sanderson ;)).


 I admittedly forgot they used sorcery at that point. Though, it doesn't really note how many possess it or to what degree.

Well, I think it's safe to say they didn't think they could take Kellhus with sorcery given that they had all those Skin-Spies on hand with Chorae tied to their palms ;).

Since Kellhus was able to develop Metagnosis almost instantly, assuming at least that level of proficiency seems reasonable.

Sure but Kellhus also head twenty years - a number of those ahead of the Mutilated.

I feel that in this regard the Ordeal is both a contingency and a convenience. The former is fairly obvious. In the case of the latter, let's say Kellhus deals with the Consult without the Ordeal. There is still the Ark that needs to be scrutinized (Kellhus can't be in many places at once), hosts that need to be exterminated, Erratics that need to be cleared out of the Ark, a dragon that needs to learn to respect women, and so on. Not to mention Kellhus needs to sleep, eat, and isn't a stranger to comfort.

Also, basically moving his base of operations (i.e. the Great Ordeal) closer and closer to Golgotterath allowed Kellhus to preserve his strength instead of exerting himself with continuous Translocations. He wasn't in his top form when he came for Esmenet at the end of TGO.

Lol, +1.

If Kellhus really wasn't aware of Ajokli's presence in him, what else made him think he was walking into Conditioned Ground? In a place he had never been?

It mirrors his journey in PON, except this time he doesn't have a phone call from the Mutilated (Moenghus the Elder) ahead of time - but as Kellhus and the Mutilated discuss, Kellhus suspected the possibility and the use of the Nuke started exposing their agency.

I use that name because I really don't understand why it has to be a binary split between the two. I don't believe there even is a line where Kellhus ends and Ajokli begins.

It's possible that the Amiolas serves as a cipher. What does Oiranal say to Sorweel? Possession is best served by the unaware donning soul (bp).

edit - To elaborate a little more while my thoughts are still on this, it seems especially clear with the conversation at the IF. Kellhus was already prepared to gaze into it, because he already mastered his damnation as hunger (i.e. before the full "possession"). The afterlife is a circumstance he has already become the dominator of. That's obviously what he got out of the relationship, whereas Ajokli's presence/vision into the World was his gain from the pact.

That much seemed implicit to me, but it's also interesting to hear from another POV where it's not.

I find it interesting to consider that Ajokli isn't necessarily master in the Hells.

But I wonder how people reconcile Kellhus' knowledge of the "darkness" without knowledge of Ajokli. He trained for thirty years to know and conquer the darkness within, but (talking to Proyas, IIRC) he just sort of accepts it as being there, and doesn't seem concerned about his lack of mastery of it? Why? I'd argue that it's because he's already accepted it as Ajokli.

Well, if we want to reconcile Bakker's extratextual comments with the text, Kellhus is unaware.

But as I mentioned upthread to profgrape, the dude is busy. If Kellhus had had the time to sit down and make it his Study, I'm sure he could have figured it out, though this would make him undesirable to Ajokli in the first place - hell, maybe Kellhus even did figure it out by the reading of the "contingencies" camp. But in text, especially with his extratextual comments, Bakker almost paints a naive picture of Kellhus. An earnest Kellhus who was just doing his darnedest, utilitarian effort to "save the World," as he saw it.

I've been afraid to pollute this killer conversation

Lol, stahhppp. Just dive in and engage. Express yourself ;).

Cleric was aware of his own possession as well.

Was he? It doesn't seem like he ever made any comment on what happened to him in Cil-Aujas.

I do think Bakker expects too much of us to have understood all of that on our own, so the conversation/debate going on here is valid.

+1

Why would he make a pact w/the pit. He is the pit. The lord of hate does not make a pact w/his servants. I do not make a pact w/an ant that crosses my kitchen.

Wb, Rots. Thought we'd lost you ;).

We just don't know that Ajokli being master of Hell is the case, though.

who cares what Kayu thinks (hes basically a worthless character, imo).

Aw. I liked Kayutas. Some of my favorite moments in the series are the early martial exploits by Kellhus and Cnaiur. Kayutas got a small moment like that when he takes out Grimmel (I think?) in the Council of the Believer-Kings in TUC but that's not enough. I'd like to see him take on a Skin-Spy in full Cartilage-Octopus mode.

Its still TBD who tricked whom in the Kellhus vs Ajokli contest. We have no way of knowing until TNG appears in a few years. And as for Ajokli needing to be w/in X distance of the GR/topos to manifest that doesnt explain how he can then manifest as Cnauir, unless TNG is a whirlwind of topos, which i dont buy.

Or Cnaiur is within the same arbitrary gradient threshold. The Horde parts for him a good deal as they previously did for Sibuwal.

Is the power that Ajokli can possess anyone he wants if they close in near/to a Topos?

Well, it seems to me that it's either a sufficiently Damned/Holy/Redeemed individual or Topoi or both ;)?

If we're to believe Ajokli was speaking to Kellhus as far back as The Holy War, it might be his use of an Inversion made him more susceptible to the possession in the first place. Not that I'm claiming there wasn't some sort of deal, as I noted above. Just that possession isn't confirmation of a deal.

+1

Whispering and whispering.

Oh, this reminds me of something I need to quote to the Ajokli's Motivation thread - Kellhus recalls a moment with the Vision/Voice in TGO where (assumptively) Ajokli, appearing as Kellhus (with no haloes), tells him that he wars with the God and that "burning the fields" is how to awaken him. Crucial, as this both makes Ajokli an enemy of the Gods (who feed on the granary) and of the God itself, for whatever inscrutable Ajokli reasons ;).

Well, I don't think we can discount that Kellhus might have known of his own demise.

He even intimates to Proyas: "The thing—the most horrific thing to understand, Proyas, is that at some point the Inchoroi must win."

So, I don't think it is all together implausible to think that Kellhus prepared himself for some eventuality of failure, even if he was unaware of what that failure would be.  I do think that Kellhus was purposely allowing Ajokli to work through him, plausibly he might have thought he could exercise some control, or perhaps not.  I don't think that is the point though, the point was to deliver Ajokli to the Golden Room.

Bakker tells us that the Thousandfold Thought failed though.  This is because it was predicated to win.  But Kellhus already knew, as per the quote above, that the whole endeavor was doomed to fail.  The question, of course, is not what Kellhus had planned (because the Golden Room was a singularity, a place which, past it, the rules are different and nothing can be inferred) but rather, what contingencies were he prepared for.  His own death certainly seems like something he, at least, should have considered.

As such, it doesn't surprise me that Bakker would tell us that Kellhus is dead, but is not done.

See, profgrape, H and others are writing your thread for you ;).

I really hate the 'Inchoroi must win' line. Maybe it just has to do with the idea of how eternity works in the Outside. Further, Bakker's answer on the topic, was far too vague.

Quote
1. Why did Kellhus say to Proyas that the Inchoroi must win? Was he arguing from the perspective of the Consult?
1) Is that what he says?


I feel like there has to be some understanding of the text I'm not able to grasp. Either that his comments are somehow more in regards to specifically the Gods in relation to The Ark. I've even vaguely considered what he says may have been influenced by Ajokli at that point or some differing metaphysical understanding, given that he didn't even know the No-God was necessary before the Golden Room. Or perhaps that The Ark may lay outside Eternity in some other manner. I'm not sure. Given that Ajokli literally stood in The Ark, it seems weird to consider him still blind to it. As well that he seemed capable of perceiving the Skin Spies.

+1

I can even somewhat get the Gods looking-backwards across the Block-Universe vantage but I don't get how the agency and events of that Block-Universe can then change the very shape and perspective of those Gods looking-backwards across the Block-Universe. Bakker did say in the Q&A here that even he gets headaches thinking this shit through ;).
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 05:01:09 pm by Madness »
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Yellow

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« Reply #137 on: October 13, 2017, 05:43:25 pm »
I really hate the 'Inchoroi must win' line. Maybe it just has to do with the idea of how eternity works in the Outside. Further, Bakker's answer on the topic, was far too vague.

Quote
1. Why did Kellhus say to Proyas that the Inchoroi must win? Was he arguing from the perspective of the Consult?
1) Is that what he says?
I feel like there has to be some understanding of the text I'm not able to grasp. Either that his comments are somehow more in regards to specifically the Gods in relation to The Ark. I've even vaguely considered what he says may have been influenced by Ajokli at that point or some differing metaphysical understanding, given that he didn't even know the No-God was necessary before the Golden Room. Or perhaps that The Ark may lay outside Eternity in some other manner. I'm not sure. Given that Ajokli literally stood in The Ark, it seems weird to consider him still blind to it. As well that he seemed capable of perceiving the Skin Spies.

Anyway, on the specific thought of contingency - maybe. But I don't think Kellhus thought the entire endeavor would fail specifically. He makes note that the eventuality of human extinction may take place ages in the future. Even had Kellhus managed to slay The Consult, the possibility of others taking up their work would remain unless he could utterly destroy The Ark. And given the only thing we've seen damage it is a lazer weapon he didn't know about, that seems a nearly impossible prospect.

I'm nearing the end of my re-read and will post some thoughts on a few days, but this section is one of the points I wanted people's opinion on. I read this conversation numerous times, but there seems to be a logical gap in what Kellhus is saying to Proyas. Bakker's answer is typically unhelpful. YES he said that to Proyas. What does it mean, mate?

Anyway, I'll go into more detail once I've gathered my thoughts.

But on  the comment that he didn't know the NG was necessary - there's a chapter heading quote in TWLW that mentions the 144k, so SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE must have been aware of what the Inchoroi were trying to do. By extension, Kellhus (Lore Master extraordinaire) will also have been aware.
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« Reply #138 on: October 13, 2017, 05:53:58 pm »
I really hate the 'Inchoroi must win' line. Maybe it just has to do with the idea of how eternity works in the Outside. Further, Bakker's answer on the topic, was far too vague.

Quote
1. Why did Kellhus say to Proyas that the Inchoroi must win? Was he arguing from the perspective of the Consult?
1) Is that what he says?
I feel like there has to be some understanding of the text I'm not able to grasp. Either that his comments are somehow more in regards to specifically the Gods in relation to The Ark. I've even vaguely considered what he says may have been influenced by Ajokli at that point or some differing metaphysical understanding, given that he didn't even know the No-God was necessary before the Golden Room. Or perhaps that The Ark may lay outside Eternity in some other manner. I'm not sure. Given that Ajokli literally stood in The Ark, it seems weird to consider him still blind to it. As well that he seemed capable of perceiving the Skin Spies.

Anyway, on the specific thought of contingency - maybe. But I don't think Kellhus thought the entire endeavor would fail specifically. He makes note that the eventuality of human extinction may take place ages in the future. Even had Kellhus managed to slay The Consult, the possibility of others taking up their work would remain unless he could utterly destroy The Ark. And given the only thing we've seen damage it is a lazer weapon he didn't know about, that seems a nearly impossible prospect.

I'm nearing the end of my re-read and will post some thoughts on a few days, but this section is one of the points I wanted people's opinion on. I read this conversation numerous times, but there seems to be a logical gap in what Kellhus is saying to Proyas. Bakker's answer is typically unhelpful. YES he said that to Proyas. What does it mean, mate?

Anyway, I'll go into more detail once I've gathered my thoughts.

But on  the comment that he didn't know the NG was necessary - there's a chapter heading quote in TWLW that mentions the 144k, so SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE must have been aware of what the Inchoroi were trying to do. By extension, Kellhus (Lore Master extraordinaire) will also have been aware.
I think the number was in relation to a prophecy about the end of the world. That said, Kellhus knows they are trying to wipe out humanity to Shut the World - he makes that clear both talking to Proyas and The Mutilated. However, he just makes it clear he wasn't aware they needed The No-God.

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« Reply #139 on: October 13, 2017, 06:34:20 pm »
The number definitely comes from the Inchoroi... I'm fairly sure Wutteat referred to the number. Since coincidence is unlikely, the prophecy must have been derived from there. Kellhus would know of  the prophecy, and from there it's completely reasonable to think he could have devised its origins. There is very little about the Consult that surprised him in the Golden Room.

Anyway, he would definitely have worked out that the NG was needed, because otherwise why would they bother? He just didn't know *why* the NG was needed.
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« Reply #140 on: October 13, 2017, 06:45:39 pm »
The number definitely comes from the Inchoroi... I'm fairly sure Wutteat referred to the number. Since coincidence is unlikely, the prophecy must have been derived from there. Kellhus would know of  the prophecy, and from there it's completely reasonable to think he could have devised its origins. There is very little about the Consult that surprised him in the Golden Room.

Anyway, he would definitely have worked out that the NG was needed, because otherwise why would they bother? He just didn't know *why* the NG was needed.
Why should we have any reason to believe he worked out The No-God was needed? He says, in a way, 'why not just use nukes'. He's presenting alternatives, why use The No-God at all. If he's unsure why use it at all, intuitively the line of thought is that he thought it unnecessary.

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« Reply #141 on: October 13, 2017, 06:54:51 pm »
Come on, this is Kellhus. You don't think he wondered *why* sometime in the past 20 years of studying the Apocalypse, mastering metaphysics, and interrogating Skin Spies? And if we on the forum can get close to guessing from a couple of quotes, he's going to be stumped?

I mean, even Cnaiur found out about the IF as soon as TTT (even if he didn't know what it was). Are people still underestimating Kellhus?
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« Reply #142 on: October 13, 2017, 07:03:46 pm »
Come on, this is Kellhus. You don't think he wondered *why* sometime in the past 20 years of studying the Apocalypse, mastering metaphysics, and interrogating Skin Spies? And if we on the forum can get close to guessing from a couple of quotes, he's going to be stumped?

I mean, even Cnaiur found out about the IF as soon as TTT (even if he didn't know what it was). Are people still underestimating Kellhus?
I'm sure he wondered. But other alternatives exist. The first, and a likely one, being that The No-God is an extremely effective tool. Seeing as it allows the coordinated control of Scranc/Bashrag/Wracu, brings forth a massive whirlwind, and prevents the birth of more humans.

I'm not underestimating Kellhus. I'm drawing directly from his conversation where he asks why The Consult bothers to go to all the trouble to restart The No-God if they had nukes. And that nowhere else in the text does Kellhus imply he was aware The No-God was necessary.

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« Reply #143 on: October 13, 2017, 07:27:33 pm »
Are people still underestimating Kellhus?
More like the other way around if you ask me. The point of the Golden Room sequence is that Kellhus, despite his miraculous powers, is still every bit as vulnerable to the atemporal control of a Divine agency.

Also, great to see the "the Inchoroi must win" thing brought up again :D. It's been bothering for so long. I think Bakker was getting tired when he answered my question. His first couple of answers seem way more detailed, and then it just got more vague and cryptic as time passed :D.

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« Reply #144 on: October 13, 2017, 09:36:16 pm »
To be honest, as far is my reading goes, I think besting Aurang convinced Kellhus that he would meet Dunyain ("Fear not, Iswazi, we walk conditioned ground" (bp)). Kellhus thought he was going to be able take the Mutilated. Their combat comes down to the pure-Dunyain argument, regarding, as noted by profgrape and H, the (second) use of Cause in the novels and Kellhus thought he was going to convince them.
He didn't even try to convince them, the way I read it. He was completely taken by his own purpose, whatever that was. We know that it stems from the Gnosis, though, because he specifically cites it as his main influence, as opposed to Tekne in the case of the Mutilated.

But the fact that Kellhus was so confident going in makes me think he expected to use divine powers as his trump card.

Maybe. It's worth teasing out for me - as I've said, I seem to rely on the evidence that Ajokli is different than the others gods, sometimes companion or foil, manifests differently, etc.
I feel here we simply don't have enough information to determine the truth. Right now, it can easily go a variety of ways.

We similarly asked this question after TGO regarding Ciphrang-Malowebi. For my part, I was curious as to whether or not Ciphrang-Malowebi would be limited to Malowebi's skill with the Iswazi (is that right?) or basically unlock Ciphrang-level Sorcerous understanding? (Also, holy fuck, it's mentioned in the Glossary that the Mbimayu have like a 120-something fetishes on them at all times in their sorcery-appropriate fashion wear?!)
I'm completely unsure about how Ciphrang-Malowebi would work.

This is muddied by the fact that once Malowebi starts looking through the Soggomant reflection at the happening of happenings, he periodically comments on the obfuscation of Kellhus' reflection and doesn't tie it to the other Decapitant for the reader until he looks at it - which is moments still before Kellhus' head goes full Ghost Rider.
On the contrary, I feel it only brings clarity. Kellhus is channeling divine power even before he gets possessed, as is evidenced by him causing an earthquake. This is what the distortion Malowebi sees indicates. But at this point it's still Kellhus, though obviously using the divine. I consider this being part of his plan.

Then Kellhus's head bursts into flames, which indicates the moment when Kellhus stops being Kellhus and becomes Ajokli. That was not part of the plan, as confirmed by Bakker.

Sure but Kellhus also head twenty years - a number of those ahead of the Mutilated.
He was also very busy creating an empire and fighting a civil war. I don't think we can safely assume that he was able to put more effort into mastering sorcery that the Dunsult.

I can even somewhat get the Gods looking-backwards across the Block-Universe vantage but I don't get how the agency and events of that Block-Universe can then change the very shape and perspective of those Gods looking-backwards across the Block-Universe. Bakker did say in the Q&A here that even he gets headaches thinking this shit through ;).
I love this "temporal-atemporal" aspect of the series! It's very fresh and completely not for show, being acutely plot-relevant. This is what I read fantasy for.

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« Reply #145 on: October 22, 2017, 05:41:05 pm »
But on  the comment that he didn't know the NG was necessary - there's a chapter heading quote in TWLW that mentions the 144k, so SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE must have been aware of what the Inchoroi were trying to do. By extension, Kellhus (Lore Master extraordinaire) will also have been aware.

Ganus the Blind. Most curious.

I mean, even Cnaiur found out about the IF as soon as TTT (even if he didn't know what it was). Are people still underestimating Kellhus?

Overestimating, underestimating. I've heard it both ways ;).

I'm not underestimating Kellhus. I'm drawing directly from his conversation where he asks why The Consult bothers to go to all the trouble to restart The No-God if they had nukes.

Don't the Mutilated suggest that the Tekne-Nukes do too much damage to the World for their use - even if they had more? Safeguarding the World itself implies some interesting possibilities.

Also, great to see the "the Inchoroi must win" thing brought up again :D. It's been bothering for so long. I think Bakker was getting tired when he answered my question. His first couple of answers seem way more detailed, and then it just got more vague and cryptic as time passed :D.

profgrape has been privately after me about that line for time now.

And nah, tleilaxu, our entire Q&A thread was almost ruined by Bakker's "losing three hours worth of answering posts," which he then rewrote over the course of a few days before the AMA. Nothing on you. I'm sure he was just subsequently frustrated.

He didn't even try to convince them, the way I read it. He was completely taken by his own purpose, whatever that was. We know that it stems from the Gnosis, though, because he specifically cites it as his main influence, as opposed to Tekne in the case of the Mutilated.

But the fact that Kellhus was so confident going in makes me think he expected to use divine powers as his trump card.

Right - in fact, doesn't he reference the Gnosis and the Daimos? I'd have to check.

I don't think Kellhus was depending on Ajokli - I still think that was a true suckering.

I feel here we simply don't have enough information to determine the truth. Right now, it can easily go a variety of ways.

Indeed :).

On the contrary, I feel it only brings clarity. Kellhus is channeling divine power even before he gets possessed, as is evidenced by him causing an earthquake. This is what the distortion Malowebi sees indicates. But at this point it's still Kellhus, though obviously using the divine. I consider this being part of his plan.

Then Kellhus's head bursts into flames, which indicates the moment when Kellhus stops being Kellhus and becomes Ajokli. That was not part of the plan, as confirmed by Bakker.

You have that wrong, friend. Kellhus causes an "earthquake" cutting down the Canted Horn. Ajokli stomps after Kellhus' head goes full Ghost Rider God-Mode, as far as I recall.

He was also very busy creating an empire and fighting a civil war. I don't think we can safely assume that he was able to put more effort into mastering sorcery that the Dunsult.

Kellhus definitely has a head-start on the Mutilated, either way.

I love this "temporal-atemporal" aspect of the series! It's very fresh and completely not for show, being acutely plot-relevant. This is what I read fantasy for.

Haha, well met, SmilerLoki. Other fantasy fans are not as pleased with Bakker's narrative it seems ;).
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 05:43:39 pm by Madness »
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #146 on: October 22, 2017, 09:11:24 pm »
Don't the Mutilated suggest that the Tekne-Nukes do too much damage to the World for their use - even if they had more? Safeguarding the World itself implies some interesting possibilities.
This is where they bring up "the Art of human extinction, not the fact" matter. I should note that I didn't interpret it as them being ecologically conscious.

Right - in fact, doesn't he reference the Gnosis and the Daimos? I'd have to check.
He indeed does:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter 18, "The Golden Room"
“Where you immersed yourself in the Tekne, took up the generational toil of recovering what the Inchoroi have lost, I mastered the Daimos, plundered the Houses of the Dead.”

You have that wrong, friend. Kellhus causes an "earthquake" cutting down the Canted Horn. Ajokli stomps after Kellhus' head goes full Ghost Rider God-Mode, as far as I recall.
I attribute the stomp to Kellhus, but being already on the verge of full possession and falling into it shortly after. Here is how it looked like:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter 18, "The Golden Room"
“And yet you forget,” Anasûrimbor Kellhus replied, grinning.
His reflection raised a knee, stamped a sandalled heel down ...
A cataclysmic thump, mazing the obsidian polish with concentric fractures, resounding through the mountainous bones of the structure, where it reverberated and returned to rock them all ...
Without uttering a word of sorcery.
Following that he talks about the Gnosis and the Daimos (the quote before this one) and only after that goes full Ghost Rider.

Haha, well met, SmilerLoki. Other fantasy fans are not as pleased with Bakker's narrative it seems ;).
This is really unfortunate and probably explains a suspicious lack of innovation in the genre.

MSJ

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« Reply #147 on: October 23, 2017, 02:07:40 am »
I will your respect your opinion, but in my estimation, Kellhus is u doubtedly the greatest sorcerer and mind that ever graced Earwa, point blank. Even without the GR, he dispatched Aurang like he was nothing, fed him to Scranc.

I think that's the whole purpose of Kellhus. This great mind who plans out every contingency and in the end, missed one and it cost him. The Great Gandalf that does. It sucks, but, I thought it was did in a satisfying way and leaves room for more to come.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #148 on: October 23, 2017, 11:02:50 am »
I prefer to see Kellhus's intellect as preternatural, not supernatural. In this sense, I feel there is a fairly significant amount of things he didn't see (many of those because he wasn't looking in their direction at all) and didn't plan for. Though it's undeniable that he saw farther than most.

It's like this:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker
To ask Mimara's question of Achamian, why assume Kellhus is in control of everything? The text is littered with indications that he wasn't.

MSJ

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« Reply #149 on: October 23, 2017, 01:59:05 pm »
That doesn't mean he still wasn't the greatest intellect to walk Earwa, it just means he makes mistakes like anyone else.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,