[Cnaiür vs Karsa vs Drogo]

Maybe this has something to do with the Ekkinu, which glossary says are first mentioned in 4122, one year later. The glossary also says it might relate some kind of language, and indeed, kelmomas notices them "wax bright for no explicable reason," and immediately after sees the decapitants seemingly talking to each other. Wtf.

Also the white-luck-sorweel describes them "bearing an endless descent of writhing text that only he and the Demon (Kelhus) can read.

Maybe some kind of message board from the Outside?

[Madness]

So... I realize that few people have read the Atrocity Tales but I'll put forth an interesting theory that profgrape and FB have inspired in me:

(click to show/hide)

After reading The Carathayan but before having read TUC - thus confirming the role played by the Decapitants - FB made an apt comment to me regarding Kellhus "collecting Ciphrang like pokemon."

Now there is an interesting narrative collapse if we adopt FB's perspective, implying that the "two" Decapitants hanging on Kellhus' girdle are a rotating cast of illusory heads. Malowebi reminisces, in his WLW POVs when considering Kellhus, that Ciphrang do periodically possess people and wreak havoc in the World. The Nonman embassy, Nin'sarricas, suggests that such substitutions have happened as well - brilliant move, Bakker, playing the reader that the Nonmen hand-shake would alert the Nin'sarricas to any foul play by Outside agencies.

Now I've maintained in-thread that fitting The Carathayan in Earwa's context might yield many world nuggets but...

Just strictly going off FB conjecture and Bakker's comment that Uster Scraul, the leading man of that Atrocity Tale, would make a good character vehicle for future such tales, we could surmise that Scraul - who it's hinted at in story has a predestined death augured by one of his sisters - is Kellhus' Headsman, roaming around the Three-Seas post-Unification Wars in 4121 (randomly right after Kellhus learns the Diamos as noted above in thread) collecting all these aforementioned "naturally-occuring" Ciphrang possessed individuals so Kellhus can put them to use.

And that's hopefully my only nerdanel for today. Gall, I feel like I should have thrown some all caps in there because that's worthy of FB and MG's crazy .

[solipsisticurge]

On finding the significance of these deaths ten years or more later in TNG, might Achamian's new status as Prophet of the Past factor in? It hasn't served much purpose since finding Ishual, but who's to say how it might continue to evolve?

Seswatha might also have made contingencies in the nature of the Dreams. Perhaps all Gnostic sorcerers will find them deeply changed with the No-God as a walking reality instead of a pervasive threat.

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[Madness]

On finding the significance of these deaths ten years or more later in TNG, might Achamian's new status as Prophet of the Past factor in? It hasn't served much purpose since finding Ishual, but who's to say how it might continue to evolve?

That'd be really interesting should Achamian's Dreaming different souls be totally unrelated to or even simply just made possible by but not a direct result of the Grasping.

Seswatha might also have made contingencies in the nature of the Dreams. Perhaps all Gnostic sorcerers will find them deeply changed with the No-God as a walking reality instead of a pervasive threat.

That's an interesting thought indeed.

Also, welcome to the Second Apocalypse, solipsisticurge. I remember liking your username immediately when I approved you .

[Mondoënghus]

So... I realize that few people have read the Atrocity Tales but I'll put forth an interesting theory that profgrape and FB have inspired in me:

(click to show/hide)

After reading The Carathayan but before having read TUC - thus confirming the role played by the Decapitants - FB made an apt comment to me regarding Kellhus "collecting Ciphrang like pokemon."

Now there is an interesting narrative collapse if we adopt FB's perspective, implying that the "two" Decapitants hanging on Kellhus' girdle are a rotating cast of illusory heads. Malowebi reminisces, in his WLW POVs when considering Kellhus, that Ciphrang do periodically possess people and wreak havoc in the World. The Nonman embassy, Nin'sarricas, suggests that such substitutions have happened as well - brilliant move, Bakker, playing the reader that the Nonmen hand-shake would alert the Nin'sarricas to any foul play by Outside agencies.

Now I've maintained in-thread that fitting The Carathayan in Earwa's context might yield many world nuggets but...

Just strictly going off FB conjecture and Bakker's comment that Uster Scraul, the leading man of that Atrocity Tale, would make a good character vehicle for future such tales, we could surmise that Scraul - who it's hinted at in story has a predestined death augured by one of his sisters - is Kellhus' Headsman, roaming around the Three-Seas post-Unification Wars in 4121 (randomly right after Kellhus learns the Diamos as noted above in thread) collecting all these aforementioned "naturally-occuring" Ciphrang possessed individuals so Kellhus can put them to use.

And that's hopefully my only nerdanel for today. Gall, I feel like I should have thrown some all caps in there because that's worthy of FB and MG's crazy .

That's really good stuff, Madness. It makes everything I found somewhat confusing about THE CARATHAYAN pop right into place. And I can see how it might possibly tie into the 4121 murders as well.

As an aside, I must say I really enjoyed THE CARATHAYAN and think it is by far Bakker's funniest work. If Bakker has a weakness, IMO, it's his occasional use of humor. Doesn't work for me most of the time. But I think Scraul is pretty hilarious and likable character. (For a complete murdering psychopath, that is!)

[H]

On finding the significance of these deaths ten years or more later in TNG, might Achamian's new status as Prophet of the Past factor in? It hasn't served much purpose since finding Ishual, but who's to say how it might continue to evolve?

Seswatha might also have made contingencies in the nature of the Dreams. Perhaps all Gnostic sorcerers will find them deeply changed with the No-God as a walking reality instead of a pervasive threat.

I don't know, I think it is plausible that Akka's dreams were compromised from the point at which Kellhus removed the imperative to not share the Gnosis.

Also, I like your avatar, 

[Madness]

That's really good stuff, Madness. It makes everything I found somewhat confusing about THE CARATHAYAN pop right into place. And I can see how it might possibly tie into the 4121 murders as well.

High praise, Mondoënghus. Thanks. FB's comment was the impetus for my interpretative lens, however.

As an aside, I must say I really enjoyed THE CARATHAYAN and think it is by far Bakker's funniest work. If Bakker has a weakness, IMO, it's his occasional use of humor. Doesn't work for me most of the time. But I think Scraul is pretty hilarious and likable character. (For a complete murdering psychopath, that is!)

Lol, I liked it. I really wish more minds were tackling the aforementioned thread for The Carathayan. I do think there are a number of world nuggets that might fall out of that story with a more encompassing perspective.

[MSJ]

MSJ theory time!

Ekkinû—Sorcerous arras behind Kellhus’s bench in the Eleven-Pole Chamber. Sorcerous artifact of unknown provenance or function, first reported in the possession of Anasûrimbor Kellhus in 4122 (thus earning a place among the Orthodox “Articles of Damnation”).Several theories regarding its origins and uses have circulated through various literate entrepots around the Three Seas, among them the suggestion that the undulating displays constitute some kind of language, but consensus considers them decorative merely.

The mysterious deaths of 4121, hmmm. So, was checking out the EG and came across this entry, that Madness seems fond of. Here's my theory, the mysterious deaths of 4121 were a result of creating the Ekkinû. My bold, what if these undulating displays in fact constitute the souls that so mysteriously disappeared and is the work of the diamos. Or, rather, a means to use the diamos more effectively? Also, the Ekkinû surfaced just after 4121 and the deaths. Just some thoughts. Anyone have any other ideas?

[Cnaiür vs Karsa vs Drogo]

MSJ theory time!

Ekkinû—Sorcerous arras behind Kellhus’s bench in the Eleven-Pole Chamber. Sorcerous artifact of unknown provenance or function, first reported in the possession of Anasûrimbor Kellhus in 4122 (thus earning a place among the Orthodox “Articles of Damnation”).Several theories regarding its origins and uses have circulated through various literate entrepots around the Three Seas, among them the suggestion that the undulating displays constitute some kind of language, but consensus considers them decorative merely.

The mysterious deaths of 4121, hmmm. So, was checking out the EG and came across this entry, that Madness seems fond of. Here's my theory, the mysterious deaths of 4121 were a result of creating the Ekkinû. My bold, what if these undulating displays in fact constitute the souls that so mysteriously disappeared and is the work of the diamos. Or, rather, a means to use the diamos more effectively? Also, the Ekkinû surfaced just after 4121 and the deaths. Just some thoughts. Anyone have any other ideas?

The weirdest part is that sorweel sees scrolling text on them and notes that only he and demons can see it.

[MSJ]

The weirdest part is that sorweel sees scrolling text on them and notes that only he and demons can see it.

Yea, i dont recall that. But that would suggest the Outside is involved. Also, it aligns with these mysterious deaths perfectly.

[Madness]

So, was checking out the EG and came across this entry, that Madness seems fond of.

Lol, well, I'm obsessed with the tapestry depicting Mimara as she sees herself through the Eye in the Mop but... I am also very curious about what the fuck is up with the Ekkinu.

And I haven't really read the Glossary yet so I don't know much about individual entries.

[Madness]

Well, I finished the Glossary today - fucking finally! While I'm still convinced that the deaths of 4121 involve Kellhus' then recent Daimotic sabbatical, I've also become convinced that some of them - given other entries mentioning religious Excision - must have something to do with the Excision of Byantas (Glossary entry Byantas).

[Moosehunter]

Well, I finished the Glossary today - fucking finally! While I'm still convinced that the deaths of 4121 involve Kellhus' then recent Daimotic sabbatical, I've also become convinced that some of them - given other entries mentioning religious Excision - must have something to do with the Excision of Byantas (Glossary entry Byantas).

So basically Byantas and his disciples/main followers were all deemed apostates and killed?

Not something i had considered before. Personally i had assumed it to be early experimentation with Decapitant replacement and control. Range, recall, familiarity with the subject being important early on. Has he learned to create Ciphrang from fervent followers maybe?

It was interesting that Bakker killed the conversation dead when asked about it in his reddit AMA.  Bakker has stated in the past that the glossaries are to be no more trusted than real world accounts by biased historians recording events both during and long before their time (at least how i interpreted it). Meaning you are probably correct. He has given us as much as he intends to on this subject and it has no further bearing on the series. Just another morsel for us to pick to death.

[Madness]

Just another morsel for us to pick to death.

And we will .

I think it's both as you highlighted. FB has me convinced, as per The Carathayan, that Kellhus has more than two Decapitants in play. But I do think that Byantas' entry is interesting in and of itself as it seemingly has to do with questioning cultural manipulation.

[Sausuna]

Well, I finished the Glossary today - fucking finally! While I'm still convinced that the deaths of 4121 involve Kellhus' then recent Daimotic sabbatical, I've also become convinced that some of them - given other entries mentioning religious Excision - must have something to do with the Excision of Byantas (Glossary entry Byantas).

So basically Byantas and his disciples/main followers were all deemed apostates and killed?

Not something i had considered before. Personally i had assumed it to be early experimentation with Decapitant replacement and control. Range, recall, familiarity with the subject being important early on. Has he learned to create Ciphrang from fervent followers maybe?

It was interesting that Bakker killed the conversation dead when asked about it in his reddit AMA.  Bakker has stated in the past that the glossaries are to be no more trusted than real world accounts by biased historians recording events both during and long before their time (at least how i interpreted it). Meaning you are probably correct. He has given us as much as he intends to on this subject and it has no further bearing on the series. Just another morsel for us to pick to death.

For the record, Byantas lived some 2,000 years prior to Kellhus. While his excision might be related to the deaths, he has been dead a long time.