Quote from: Cüréthañ on July 25, 2017, 02:52:29 am

Something to start things off that no one else seems to have realized;

Kosoter was very likely the other decapitant. 

Lol, some readers here have certainly argued that Kosoter might have been a Decipitant at least since Ciphrang-Malowebi's creation in TGO, if not before, as far as I remember.

Mimara would settle the question for me, if we knew she saw Ciphrang under the Eye as differing from just Damned people.

For instance, merchant quoted the portion of TUC where Mimara sees Serwa trying to save them and Mimara labels her a Ciphrang and this differs from her "demon" description regarding Kosoter and the Skin Eaters (where demon might just be a descriptive word). Which, by that argument, would make Serwa a Decapitant (personally I'll err on Mimara being unable to distinguish actual Ciphrang-Characters, or then authorial error should she, say, later recognize a Ciphrang-Character as a Ciphrang head on a body with the Eye).

I think, based on some of FB's comments regarding the Atrocity Tales, the cipher of the Decapitants is that Kellhus has possibly created a number of Ciphrang-Characters, up to but not limited to Himself and Malowebi.

So I threw out the possibility that Kellhus hid a decapitant in the OUtside, but what if he jumped to Kosoter's head instead?!  And who the shit knows what needs to be done to reanimate him?  maybe as a Wathi(misspelled?) doll?  Lol then Achamian can replace his old one AND tell Kellhus what to do.  Ninety-nine birds, one hundred stones.

My money is on Kayutas being the Field General of the Second Apocalypse.  A shadow of what his father was, but with Serwa at his side, a shadow is more than enough to follow when the end of the world has come.

Quote from: Madness on July 31, 2017, 12:39:09 pm

My bet is only. I think the secret to the Decapitants Glossary entry is that Ajokli convinced Kellhus to try and pull the stunt at Mengedda but that Topos was insufficient.

That was my initial thought too, but it is also plausible that he was not inhabited by Ajokli just yet.  Could could have been testing how a topos would effect him switching (which he might need to do in the case something went wrong).

What if the Heqad on a Pole is actually another Decapitant that Kellhus hid somewhere in the Outside?  That whole Head on a Pole thing gets me wrapped around the axle every time I try to tear it apart for some bit of substantive information.  The only thing I think I see, now that you posted this and got my brain moving, is that at one point one of the Demons tries to take him, but Kellhus said he can't.  Because of the Head of a Pole Behind him.  He uses it somehow to transport himself to a place WHERE HE IS ALWAYS HIDDEN, but always watched.  Hidden, perhaps, from Ajokli?

Tbh I'm not buying it. Too much of a "gotcha", too much colored string and dots being connected behind the scenes for a pretty lukewarm "twist": that it was Shae all along.

But not just Shae...Shae AND the Dunyain.  Not saying I am 100% on board with this theory either, but it would be pretty cool.

Quote from: CondYoke on July 28, 2017, 08:25:41 pm

Dunk, that's interesting, but seems complex- kind of like the multiverse theory- if every time the gods mess with time, another version of the outside pops into existence there would be a multitude of forces on the reality of Earwa. That being said, I can see that these splits in time don't happen often- 2x was the white luck stymied. Dunno, I just think it is overly complex.

Yeah, I would like to simplify this theory a little:
So events in Earwa changes the gods. These new gods can and already have changed the past. So when (or maybe if) the world closes, presumably this too will change the gods and these gods will think the world has always been closed. But these gods can not change the past since the world is closed to them, which is why we don't hear from them.

Pretty sure Kellhus himself, when talking to Achamian, said that the Gods couldn't see the No-God because he existed after their end, and therefore out of their sight.  I took that to mean that should they(the Consult) succeed in closing off the world, the Gods would die, or end, or whatever.  So not really a paradox, or multiple realities, just the mind-bending fact that the Consult lies outside of the Gods' knowing.  Also, the Gods have to pick and choose when and where to intervene, because Kellhus said they must ration themselves throughout all of time, lest they be hollowed out(or something close to that).  That's also why they failed to kill him, because to step into his time would have wasted their God-hood, basically.

OH! Just had another thought on this!  In the Watchmen, the crazy powerful blue guy talked about seeing all of time like looking at a gem.  You have all of it in your hands at once, but you can only see the side you are looking directly at, and you CAN'T see anything else.  So you look at something else(time from another angle) and now you can't see what you were looking at before.  There was once or twice in that movie where he knew something, and then, like a minute later, he didn't know it anymore.  Maybe the Gods are like that?  And then, when the Unseen Hand(the No-God) manipulates some event,  or simply acts, it changes what they THOUGHT they saw.  I dunno.  I think I'm twisting my own brain, here.

There was a part in the end of TUC where Kellhus was saying that some of the Gods inferred the presence of the Consult based on an absence surrounding certain actions, but that was it.  Somewhere else it mentions that during the First Apocalypse people prayed to the Gods for deliverance, and when the Gods looked they saw nothing, and this angered them.  It's also why some of them were waging war on Kellhus, because he was the only thing they could attribute all the commotion to. 

So, first time posting, so bare with me and any potential blunders.

Thoughts upon completion:
  1.  Kellhus is far too clever to be gone.  Serwa said once that he too is over-matched (or overpowered...don't remember), but unlike everyone else, he simply takes the battle deeper.  I think this is significant.  "I'm Damned?  Got it.  I'll just master the Daimos, and go to the place everyone seems to fear so much.  Get a lay of the land.  Talk to the Gods directly.  Sure, they can't SEE the No-God, but a few of them seem to understand there is SOMETHING they can't see.  Aha!  Ajokli want to talk deals?  Well, he's a tricky bastard, so he's gonna screw me over in the end, and I'm going up against at least ONE Dunyain, so I have to figure out SOMETHING..."  What did he come up with?  Dunno, really, but when we find out it's gonna be awesome, I think.  I remember reading somewhere that Bakker would ponder over a single conversation involving Kellhus for weeks sometimes, then finally hit on the cleverest thing possible, and cackle to himsilf, "Oh, that clever BASTARD!"  And he has had DECADES to figure out this one.  We will be seeing Kellhus again, is some way, shape or form.  That leads right into
  2.  Cnair becoming, or at least being possessed by the Prince of Hate was pretty sweet, though it will complicate Kellhus' master plan, perhaps even ruin it.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but Cnair is the only person thus far in the series to surprise Kellhus, right?  So if Ajokli took him, or he ascended to become Ajokli, there is a confrontation coming that old K-man maybe ain't ready for.

Survivors of the Ordeal
  1.  Achamian, Esmenet, Mimara, and baby.  Achamian, after receiving a mouthful of dead person ash, just hauls ass and doesn't look back.
  2.  Kayutas and Serwa.  Either with Achamian(I don't think so, but possible), the Mandate Grand Master, or (my crazy theory) they hide in Golgotterath while she regains her strength for the Meta-Gnostic.  Hiding where no one could possibly be?  Sounds pretty fuckin Dunyain to me.

Predictions for the No-God
  1.  The Carapace having no Chorae will be the eventual end of the No-God.  Having thousands upon thousands of Chorae inside the Whirlwind is pretty intimidating, but no protection on the Carapace itself is a big mistake.  I get it, though.  Kellhus was supposed to be the No-God, so they had to go, but they need to fix it now.  Or it is a future plot point, which is MY point.  Hehe...see what I did there?
  2.  Mimara's Chorae inversion thing will come up again, maybe as she stalks the halls of Golgotterath itself to cleanse it for good.  That last part is wishful thinking, but the first part is a certainty.  Or maybe she rediscovers the Aporos.  That would be cool.  My original thought was that only the Aporos had any hope of stopping Kellhus when he eventually turned on everyone, but that went a bit pear-shaped.
  3.  Some combination of the survivors of the Ordeal I listed above (maybe all?) will serve as the leaders of what's left of civilization in its undoubtedly pathetic attempt to stave of the Second Apocalypse.  Esmenet has forces mustered in some random city (I don't remember where) which will be wiped out in the second major defeat at the hands of the No-God, forcing them to seek shelter in the unforgiving arms of High Holy Zeum.  But to get there, they're gonna have to trespass on the ground owned by Moenghus and his Scylvendi.  That should be fun.  Moenghus and Serwa are going to have a Coming-to-Kellhus moment.  Probably not gonna be sweet.

Hopes for the No-God.  (as in probably not, but here's hoping!)
  1.  The Nonmen are not done.  They still have a trick or two yet to play.
  2.  Crab hand ends up with Achamian and/or Serwa, and they teach him the Gnosis.  He's Dunyain, but not really.  I mean, he has only the most basic of his training, but all that potential.  A mold-able piece of clay with the ability to still be human (feelings and such), but also capable of the Meta-Gnostic bad-assery that is grandfather wielded.  This is a leftover hope that I had held onto from a rehabilitated Kelmomas, and what he could have been.  Can you imagine a Dunyain with TWO minds, assisting each other in Meta-Gnostic Cants?  Kellhus times 2?  It makes me giggle with terror.
  3.  Meppa assisting the survivors.  Assuming he is still alive, which it seemed like he was, who knows what Kellhus said/did to him, so he would be an ultra wild card.  Finding out more about the Water and why the Consult wanted it wiped out so badly would be awfully nice, too.
  4.  Kellhus' talk with Seswatha in the Thousand Fold Thought FINALLY comes to light.  I want to know what they talked about SOOO BAD, and if that is what lead to the changes in Achamian's Dreams.  And, since I am here, wishing upon the Nail of Heaven, how about we see Seswatha awaken fully within Achamian.  The Skin-spy said Chigra burned bright in him, after all.  Maybe it was Seswatha's plan all along...a break glass in case of Second Apocalypse situation.  He would be both Achamian, but also Seswatha.
  5.  AND, since I mentioned the Nail of Heaven, how about we find out what's up with that thing, huh?!  A piece of the Arc?  An enemy of the Arc, responsible for the Arc plummeting to Earwa?  R Scott Bakker's imperial visage itself, scowling down upon all of Earwa?

And finally, a question:  Anybody care to explain the haloes about Kellhus' hands and head?

Whew!  Thanks in advance for reading and (maybe) answering, and even (POSSIBLY) arguing.