It's a friday night and I'm posting about everyone's favorite union of genre fantasy and mature philosophical themes, with just a dash of alien dick for piquance. ... I need a life.
You're all pretty intelligent, articulate people here, so I was interested hearing in your own words why you like this series so much. Is it the characters? The plot? Bakker's prose? I bet it's a little bit of everything. There's a lot not to like about the series (why does everyone cry at the drop of a hat? Oh wait, this is Earwa) but it still manages to be fantastic anyways. This is also one of the few fantasy series with a cult following that doesn't seem to have its fair share of wackos, guys who think they really are Kellhus notwithstanding. Though that would definitely change if it ever goes mainstream, god willing. Bring on your Esmi x Aurang slash fiction, weirdos, I want Bakker to get a movie deal.
As for why I love The Second Apocalypse:
1. Akka. Who can't love this guy? I don't care if some readers think he's whiny or self-obsessed. Let's be honest here, guys. If Akka was real, he'd be reading this series. He's easily slighted, can't move on from The One That Got Away, Earwa's frat boys think he's weak, etc. He's pretty much every guy at the bottom of the high school social ladder with godlike powers. Akka has serious issues, and it is his imperfections that save him from the dreaded Mary Sue label. To see such an insecure character who in fact can keep a lid on his powers is refreshing. It takes real skill to essentially make Akira-the-sorceror and not have the series devolve into a creepy power fantasy. Kudos, Bakker.
2. The Consult. I think a series is defined by its villains, and the Consult deliver in spades. A meditation on the human condition is incomplete without its dark side, and the Inchoroi/Consult take the universal desire for gratification and control to its revolting extreme. This is real, horrific evil. The kind that raises the stakes of the story and makes you care about the characters in turn. The kind that makes you almost wince out of reflex every time Aurang or Golgotterath are mentioned. Bakker's got some issues with his therapist he needs to talk about, but first he needs to thank his dealer. He was smoking some goooood shit when he thought up skin-spies and sranc. The guy has a twisted imagination and I can't help but marvel at it.
3. Sorcery. Finally, a magic system that feels real. Wait until the whackos come out of the wood work, I'm surprised I haven't read about some guy practicing his Odaini Concussion Cant on his tree in the backyard yet. Like everything else in Bakker's world, it feels authentic, real. A magic system derived from ideal meanings and the pure force of passion. As simple as that. It's too good to improve on.
4. The names. I don't know what it is about Bakker's names, but they went from being needlessly exotic-sounding to capturing the style and flavor you would expect the names of some alternate Earth to have. The guttural language of the Inchoroi's creations, the Galeoth tongue, the lyricism of the Nonmen languages. It's incredible. Each city name is perfect: Momemn, Invishi, even Golgotterath. Bakker's got a knack for invoking everything we need to know about a place in a name.
That about does it. There's more but any more knob polishing and Bakker's gonna have to start payin me for this. What about you guys?
The world-building. That's really my primary interest in the series. It's probably my favorite fantasy world, to be honest. I just love the strange combination of the fantasy setting with technologically advanced aliens and the concept of gods and real afterlives. I like the exotic names and the influence of middle/near eastern culture as opposed to the more typical medieval Europe. I also appreciate the way Bakker weaves philosophy into the worldbuilding, even if I don't think he always executes it very well. And I just love the entire concept of the Dunyain. Same with the Nonmen and the Consult, to a lesser extent. Such an awesome idea for a group of characters (especially because their function to the plot is still rather mysterious). From the standpoint of the actual writing, characterization, and plotting of the series, I don't like it as much as say, A Song of Ice and Fire, but the world blows it away by a long shot. It's funny because I have a huge interest in discussing Earwa and the mechanics of the various metaphysics, so on and so forth, but I still haven't even read WWL (I'm doing a re-read of the series now, which will lead into my first reading of WWL). I almost had to force myself through TJE up until Cil-Aujas, where it really grabbed me. So I have kind of a strange relationship with the series. The only characters' perspectives that I can say I've genuinely enjoyed reading are Kellhus, Conphas, Cnaiur, and sometimes Akka, though the latter case is more just because so many important parts of the series are told from his POV. And it's weird because I do appreciate what Bakker is trying to do with Akka as a character (all of the traits you mentioned), but I simply don't find him all that engaging to read. I feel like this is more about Bakker's writing style than any particular deficiency with the character itself though.
Agreed on the names as well. I didn't like them at first, but they really grew on me. Like I just love the word "ciphrang" for some reason.
Everyone losing, or at least not everyone winning.
I can't tell you how much it irked me that harry potter didn't die a horrible painful death. An author that is afraid to mangle, scar, or kill off their own characters pisses me off. It makes everything more real when anyone and everyone has issues.
I'm left arguing.
And so many other things compound the argument, complicate it to a painful extent. Indeed, even down to names. Friggin' nuances curdle argument.
Sounds like a love/hate relationship, actually...oops!
Bakker managed to successfully create a universe I could only dream about when I was younger. Now it's my measuring stick for everything else.
(Yeah, I said it)
Oh, and the Inchoroi/Consult are my favorite 'baddies'
you dreamed of rape aliens when you were younger? your mother must have been concerned.
Quote from: Wilshireyou dreamed of rape aliens when you were younger? your mother must have been concerned.
What mother doesn't know can't hurt her
How dare you come into my sophisticated thread and fill it with your... your inanity. Jizz aliens are serious business
It is refreshing to have the luxury of derailing one thread out of many without sidetracking an entire noosphere of speculation ;).Quote from: WilshireI can't tell you how much it irked me that harry potter didn't die a horrible painful death.
Second. It also doubly irks me that it is a plot inconsistency that Harry -- can fucking live and Voldemort can die...(click to show/hide)
GOD ROWLING!!! WHY'D YOU FUCK UP A GOOD THING!?
Inanity aside, I will absolutely give a more full relevant account of why I love TSA at a later date. For sophistication, class, and such and such...
Quote from: MadnessIt is refreshing to have the luxury of derailing one thread out of many without sidetracking an entire noosphere of speculation ;).Quote from: WilshireI can't tell you how much it irked me that harry potter didn't die a horrible painful death.
Second. It also doubly irks me that it is a plot inconsistency that Harry -- can fucking live and Voldemort can die...(click to show/hide)
GOD ROWLING!!! WHY'D YOU FUCK UP A GOOD THING!?
Inanity aside, I will absolutely give a more full relevant account of why I love TSA at a later date. For sophistication, class, and such and such...(click to show/hide)
Thank you for that marvelous analysis of Harry Potter. I feel better for not going past Book 3.
Quote from: AjokliThank you for that marvelous analysis of Harry Potter. I feel better for not going past Book 3.you sir, are probably the first person not to get upset about that. ive found a kindred spirit it would seem.
Among many things, I'd have to say that my favourite aspect of TSA is Bakker's spectacular grasp on when and how to reveal certain information. I absolutely love that subsequent books force a reevaluation of previous ones, as well as the fact that his revelations are so controlled that we can sit here and endlessly speculate on the meaning and importance of past details and wildly guess at the metaphysics and possible futures. I think I would be disappointed if I could make full sense of Earwa before he had finished writing
Quote from: WilshireQuote from: AjokliThank you for that marvelous analysis of Harry Potter. I feel better for not going past Book 3.you sir, are probably the first person not to get upset about that. ive found a kindred spirit it would seem.
Don't mention it. That was a dark time for me.
1. Bakker's prose. I used to think Martin was good. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA (Martin is still better than 95% of the hacks out there, but Bakker is in another fucking class altogether)
2. The philosophy. If the Second Apocalypse ever achieves posterity, it will probably be on the strength of the way it merged complex philosophical speculation with a narrative rich in spectacle and pathos.
3. The yarn! It's just a good plot! The overt reference to scripture are something that (to my knowledge) has never been done in a dark fantasy work. (He probably did this to juxtapose the Truest of the True with the Falsest of the False for fantasy readers that still see scripture as a revelation)
1. The plot. It is simply a fascinating and well thought story with many layers. A great combination of The Lord of the Rings and Dune with the addition of Bakker's perverse imagination of course!! Five books in and still most of the mysteries are unsolved allowing us to develop many interesting theories.
2.The characters. Sure not all of them are interesting but i think Kellhus and Cnaiur are among the most fascinating characters in the genre. Achamian, Conphas , Mimara and Cleric are some of my favourites
3. The world. Earwa is my favourite fantasy world hands down. Only Middle Earth compares with it but i find the history and the darker tone of Bakker's world more compelling.
4. The prose. Just wonderful , with vivid descriptions, and it gets better with each new book.
World building comes first for me. Bakker's world is incredibly complex, its long history is very wel conceived, it feels truly lived in and, well, real.
Secondly, language. His languages are not just poorly masked English or meaningless gibberish, like in most of fantasy. They are obviously foreign, but also logical and consistent. In this regard Bakker is second only to Tolkien in the whole genre.
Thirdly, philosophy. Like it or not, most genre still remains shallow entertainment. Bakker not only doesn't avoid deeper concerns, but puts them in the very center of his story which makes him unique, at least in the epic fantasy subgenre.
I might be alone in this as I never really see it talked about but the tragedy of Akka and Esme throughout PoN is probably the most heart-breaking relationship I've ever read in fantasy. Every single time I read the scene of Akka coming back from the dead I get sort of depressed in RL. Maybe I just need some therapy, LoL.
The way these books reward rereading. I have read PoN at least 5-6 times and each time I gain a little more insight into what the fuck you smarty-pants people are yammering about all the time on these boards. I mean, was I the only one with no background in philosophy whatsoever prior to TSA? I made it through high school and two years of college without really even getting the opportunity to take a class on philosophy. Granted, I am from the south and there is only one book to most people down here.
The mystery. Mr Bakker is truly an expert at the slow reveal. I have so many freaking questions about his universe, yet I still feel like I understand enough that it is an almost perfect metaphor for our own. The difference is that that Canadian bastard has the answers to all my questions and I only have to wait a few years and they will be adequately answered, I hope.
I guess my final favorite thing about TSA is that it is the only SFF I've ever read that has made me feel like I've walked away with a different perspective. I have learned while reading this series, which is something that I consider as a real reward. Do I love Martin? Sure, who doesn't, but do I learn from Martin? Not really, I am only entertained by his work. Bakker teaches me. He Conditions.
Quote from: ConditionedI gain a little more insight into what the fuck you smarty-pants people are yammering about all the time on these boards. I mean, was I the only one with no background in philosophy whatsoever prior to TSA?
Haha I used to feel exactly this way, especially over on TBP before this site was up. Its best to just jump in and comment, submit your own opinions and feelings and defend them. Its how ideas are fleshed out and how theories are developed. Being forced to defend your own ideas and opinions is what takes a basic formula and turns it into a complex theory. Most of the stuff here has grown organically this way.
If no one took the time to argue around here, it would get rather boring. I gotta be honest, when lockesnow didnt comment for a week or two I got rather bored. Who else was I supposed to argue with?
I'm pretty committed, emotionally. I've cried over many books and many times over Bakker's books. Achamian and Esmenet's relationship resonates with many guys, I think, simply because being betrayed by a hot woman is a pretty common experience. Get them to admit it...
Achamian stumbling around the Holy War, yelling for Esmenet, always gets me :(...
Considering, also, the commentary of readings as experiences in Bakker's perspectives, it would make sense to think that those of us who spend time exploring our internal existence and emotional standings more often are those of us who will feel ideas presented anywhere more viscerally.
Books are full-sensory information packets, Bluray for the mind, and you... this... depends on quality of box. 1080p Emotions, Conditioned ;)?
Quote from: ConditionedDo I love Martin? Sure, who doesn't, but do I learn from Martin? Not really, I am only entertained by his work.
I learned that teenagers are the best commanders and that trying to get laid brings too much trouble.
Quote from: AjokliIt stands to reason, then, that to lead a successful life, strive to be a celibate teenager forever. Peter Pan anyone?Quote from: ConditionedDo I love Martin? Sure, who doesn't, but do I learn from Martin? Not really, I am only entertained by his work.
I learned that teenagers are the best commanders and that trying to get laid brings too much trouble.
Ajokli, I'd agree to anything with that avatar. Who the hell is that expressive wonder?
Quote from: MadnessAjokli, I'd agree to anything with that avatar. Who the hell is that expressive wonder?
That would be John Phillip Law in his memorable role as the antagonist Elijah Kalgan in the action film Space Mutiny. One of the best performances I've ever seen.
I shall watch this Space Mutiny and attempt to be as pleased as that great man is in all my life's endeavours.
works for me because it's very plainly a secondary creation spec fic written by someone trained in literary theory, linguistics, philosophy of language. RSB may have repudiated his prior academic training, but it's all on display in the narrative. as it happens, that shit's my background, too, so it feels as though it's written for people like me, whereas tolkien is written for gloomy catholics, martin is written for cynical liberals, and so on.
Quote from: sologdinRSB may have repudiated his prior academic training
How so? He's still working towards his Ph.D in philosophy. That doesn't sound so repudiated.
was thinking of the commentary regarding how he was once resident on the branch derridean compound, and other remakrs about his contempt for continental philosophy.
oh ok. he does seem fairly disillusioned by the whole system, but I don't think hes given it up as a whole.
Actually, I think he did, Wilshire. I'm not sure he's still in his Ph.D period anymore...
Quote from: MadnessActually, I think he did, Wilshire. I'm not sure he's still in his Ph.D period anymore...As of last thursday he was. ;)
Crazy... is he still technically on sabbatical from Vanderbilt, do you know?
Lol, I'm surprised that that specific thing never came up in our conversations - though the university/college system has a number of times.
Uh not sure about the technicalities of it all, but he works on TUC every morning 7 days a week, and his Ph.D in the afternoon.
could be that he's pursuing the philosophy phd along lines of inquiry suggested by neuroscience and evopsych, rather than the issues raised by continental philosophy, linguistics, culture theory, and whatnot?
again I know very little about the subject as a whole, but he did mention that he shifted his study away from what it was originally, something about Euorpean philosophy, to something more (like you said solo) towards neuroscience and such.
Like many of you have mentioned, when I think of the SFF series that resonate most with me, I think of GRRM's ASOIAF and RSB's SA. When I was much younger I read RJ's WoT.
When I found ASOIAF, what immediately struck me was the dynamic between the characters. Reading deeper into the series I have always appreciated how GRRM is able to give insight into the inner-workings of any character, which has almost uniformly translated into me investing in that character: I want these characters, all of them, to succeed, despite the fact that in many cases their conflict is a zero-sum game. For me, this is the crux of GRRM's talent, the passion that I, the reader, have in his characters.
For RSB's series, it has been a different experience. The first time I picked up TDTCB it was a labor. So many of the characters were completely unlikeable for me, which was tough. I'm a total fucking sap, and I love to love my characters. RSB has not allowed me such a luxury. While I do in fact love Akka---his constant self-doubt, self-loathing, his fear and his bravery in the face of such fear, his passion for learning; I don't know if I necessarily enjoy another character.
What I have enjoyed immensely, though, is RSB's prose. It is rich and sometimes a little dense. I think in 10-15 years he will be like a post-Blood Meridian McCarthy; that is, his descriptions will stop exactly when he has painted the picture---that is, he will be more economical with his words. However, even now, I love RSB's prose.
Speaking of McCarthy, when I started reading TJE and the slog of slogs, something clicked in my brain. I stopped looking for characters to love, and I started to just enjoy the tale, started to taste the cold sweat of fear that is the slog of slogs, and I started to love how RSB had woven such a great tale of horrible despair. I think this was when I put on my Cormac McCarthy goggles and started to see Blood Meridian come to life in the fantastical setting of Earwa. But whereas McCarthy's Judge was the devil incarnate, or the blood-lusting war machine made manifest, the Nonman Erratic was a mystery even unto himself, some incomprehensible amnesiac wanderer philosopher-king dispensing the narcotic eucharist to his murderous votaries. The crazy lines of his poetry...
And finally, I'll shut up soon... what totally won me over was the battle between Wutteat and Akka and Nil'giccas. I thought Bakker at this point had totally hit his stride, starting instressing the inscape... And really, it is in scenes like this where RSB's almost purply prose---I said almost---does him a service. Fact is, I think a writer has to almost overdo with words a battle between a Dragon and an Immortal being. And RSB was spot on---he was fucking magic.
In short, I love RSB's prose and also, I think I love the mad despair.
And I can't wait to do a re-read. When the semester is over, I will be doing just that.
A fine post #2 .
/I've come to hate all of GRRMs characters.
Lets face it, I read fantasy because, well, I'm not exactly what you would call a 'bookie' (like a foodie but with books?). I don't do philosophy, I like fantasy because it has big explosions and its shiny and its easier to do than my homework.
So then I picked up a book by RSB and started reading. Probably for the first time.
The thing is, you can skip over the names and places, ignore all the deeper meaning and the philosophies and the sub plots and the secrets, forget about the majority of the history and past, you can do all that, and still scrape out a magnificent experience unlike anything else. Or at least I did on my first read. It was over my head, way over, and I only just got through the first book.
By the time I got through the series I was forced to expand my mental horizons. You can't read these books passively. I learned something, not exactly sure what but it was certainly something, and that something changed me. My brain works in different ways that would have never been possible without these books. I'm still no philosopher, fuck poetry, and I still don't like the classics (whatever those are), but I am different.
No other book or series of books has changed me as profoundly as TSA.
So then I read the series again, and damn I missed a whole lot. The complexities really exploded, but at the same time, they collapsed. I could focus on the minutia since I already knew what was happening in the rest of the world, and everything came into focus in such a spectacular way. Really it was an incredible experience, as it continues to be.
Quote from: Wilshire
So then I read the series again, and damn I missed a whole lot. The complexities really exploded, but at the same time, they collapsed. I could focus on the minutia since I already knew what was happening in the rest of the world, and everything came into focus in such a spectacular way. Really it was an incredible experience, as it continues to be.
I'm starting a re-read now, and I'm tracking through this forum's re-read message board. I'm only barely into the first book, and in no hurry, what with the end of the semester rearing its ugly head, but the second read has been phenomenal.
Really, this forum has been instrumental in really re-stoking my interest in RSB. I had initially been looking for information on TUC, and then started reading all you crazies had written. It's been an awesome experience.
Wilshire, your chronicle covers my own experience in many aspects.
Lol, GTM, cheers. There's nothing quite like engaged Bakker readers.
Quote from: 4AGdTmCall_Moenghusand then started reading all you crazies had written.
Careful, thats how it starts. Suddenly six months from now your going to have read through nearly all of the 3000+ posts that are currently up and you'll find yourself checking this more than facebook and inserting yourself into every new conversation and discussion. Oh wait, nvm thats me.
Ah well, I pride myself on being one of those crazies :) .
Quote from: WilshireSuddenly six months from now your going to have read through nearly all of the 3000+ posts that are currently up...
I think I'm well on my way. This shit is like chanv.
Quote from: 4AGdTmCall_MoenghusI think I'm well on my way. This shit is like chanv.
Well when you're done, go outside, your family is worried about you.
Quote from: 4AGdTmCall_MoenghusLike many of you have mentioned, when I think of the SFF series that resonate most with me, I think of GRRM's ASOIAF and RSB's SA. When I was much younger I read RJ's WoT.
When I found ASOIAF, what immediately struck me was the dynamic between the characters. Reading deeper into the series I have always appreciated how GRRM is able to give insight into the inner-workings of any character, which has almost uniformly translated into me investing in that character: I want these characters, all of them, to succeed, despite the fact that in many cases their conflict is a zero-sum game. For me, this is the crux of GRRM's talent, the passion that I, the reader, have in his characters.
For RSB's series, it has been a different experience. The first time I picked up TDTCB it was a labor. So many of the characters were completely unlikeable for me, which was tough. I'm a total fucking sap, and I love to love my characters. RSB has not allowed me such a luxury. While I do in fact love Akka---his constant self-doubt, self-loathing, his fear and his bravery in the face of such fear, his passion for learning; I don't know if I necessarily enjoy another character.
What I have enjoyed immensely, though, is RSB's prose. It is rich and sometimes a little dense. I think in 10-15 years he will be like a post-Blood Meridian McCarthy; that is, his descriptions will stop exactly when he has painted the picture---that is, he will be more economical with his words. However, even now, I love RSB's prose.
Speaking of McCarthy, when I started reading TJE and the slog of slogs, something clicked in my brain. I stopped looking for characters to love, and I started to just enjoy the tale, started to taste the cold sweat of fear that is the slog of slogs, and I started to love how RSB had woven such a great tale of horrible despair. I think this was when I put on my Cormac McCarthy goggles and started to see Blood Meridian come to life in the fantastical setting of Earwa. But whereas McCarthy's Judge was the devil incarnate, or the blood-lusting war machine made manifest, the Nonman Erratic was a mystery even unto himself, some incomprehensible amnesiac wanderer philosopher-king dispensing the narcotic eucharist to his murderous votaries. The crazy lines of his poetry...
And finally, I'll shut up soon... what totally won me over was the battle between Wutteat and Akka and Nil'giccas. I thought Bakker at this point had totally hit his stride, starting instressing the inscape... And really, it is in scenes like this where RSB's almost purply prose---I said almost---does him a service. Fact is, I think a writer has to almost overdo with words a battle between a Dragon and an Immortal being. And RSB was spot on---he was fucking magic.
In short, I love RSB's prose and also, I think I love the mad despair.
And I can't wait to do a re-read. When the semester is over, I will be doing just that.
I've been making my way through WLW and I couldn't agree more. Someone on the Something Awful forums said this isn't the series for you if you thought ASOIAF was too dark, because TSA is pitch black and sticky. Yet, I think it's what defines TSA. There's something to be said for taking so much horror, death, and violation and elevating it into, dare I say, art.
Sometimes I get flabbergasted about how goddamn far Bakker goes to make his world grim (soft earth deeply ploughed? all of esmi's kids being either batshit insane, batshit evil, incestuous, or devoid of human emotion? come on bro) and then I remember I'm reading this like I would a normal work of fiction, and not through the lens of the scripture Bakker is trying to imitate. It stops reading like any random story and more like the epic saga he's aiming for.
"Soft earth deeply plowed" is one of my favorite quotes.
Why isn't that on a t-shirt?
Quote from: bbaztekIt's a friday night and I'm posting about everyone's favorite union of genre fantasy and mature philosophical themes, with just a dash of alien dick for piquance. ... I need a life.
You're all pretty intelligent, articulate people here, so I was interested hearing in your own words why you like this series so much. Is it the characters? The plot? Bakker's prose? I bet it's a little bit of everything. There's a lot not to like about the series (why does everyone cry at the drop of a hat? Oh wait, this is Earwa) but it still manages to be fantastic anyways. This is also one of the few fantasy series with a cult following that doesn't seem to have its fair share of wackos, guys who think they really are Kellhus notwithstanding. Though that would definitely change if it ever goes mainstream, god willing. Bring on your Esmi x Aurang slash fiction, weirdos, I want Bakker to get a movie deal.
As for why I love The Second Apocalypse:
1. Akka. Who can't love this guy? I don't care if some readers think he's whiny or self-obsessed. Let's be honest here, guys. If Akka was real, he'd be reading this series. He's easily slighted, can't move on from The One That Got Away, Earwa's frat boys think he's weak, etc. He's pretty much every guy at the bottom of the high school social ladder with godlike powers. Akka has serious issues, and it is his imperfections that save him from the dreaded Mary Sue label. To see such an insecure character who in fact can keep a lid on his powers is refreshing. It takes real skill to essentially make Akira-the-sorceror and not have the series devolve into a creepy power fantasy. Kudos, Bakker.
2. The Consult. I think a series is defined by its villains, and the Consult deliver in spades. A meditation on the human condition is incomplete without its dark side, and the Inchoroi/Consult take the universal desire for gratification and control to its revolting extreme. This is real, horrific evil. The kind that raises the stakes of the story and makes you care about the characters in turn. The kind that makes you almost wince out of reflex every time Aurang or Golgotterath are mentioned. Bakker's got some issues with his therapist he needs to talk about, but first he needs to thank his dealer. He was smoking some goooood shit when he thought up skin-spies and sranc. The guy has a twisted imagination and I can't help but marvel at it.
3. Sorcery. Finally, a magic system that feels real. Wait until the whackos come out of the wood work, I'm surprised I haven't read about some guy practicing his Odaini Concussion Cant on his tree in the backyard yet. Like everything else in Bakker's world, it feels authentic, real. A magic system derived from ideal meanings and the pure force of passion. As simple as that. It's too good to improve on.
4. The names. I don't know what it is about Bakker's names, but they went from being needlessly exotic-sounding to capturing the style and flavor you would expect the names of some alternate Earth to have. The guttural language of the Inchoroi's creations, the Galeoth tongue, the lyricism of the Nonmen languages. It's incredible. Each city name is perfect: Momemn, Invishi, even Golgotterath. Bakker's got a knack for invoking everything we need to know about a place in a name.
That about does it. There's more but any more knob polishing and Bakker's gonna have to start payin me for this. What about you guys?
Very well and elegantly stated bbaztek.
The names - I caught myself repeating them in the head after reading and collapsing at 4.am to sleep. Incu-Holoinas the Ark of the sky - what a secret, what an evil. No-God. Yalgrotta the Sranchammer,Inchoroi. And songs the warsongs! It made me reflect and think but also feel .From what darkness did those feelings and attachments came from? It is as if something awaken them. This was amazing throught the whole series. Amazing. Nothing like that happend to me not even after Silmarillion, which came for me as the last Tolkien novels. Never. Did I live on Earwa before and its just played those strings. But, but how? I am rational. I am Dunyain.
The Consult, The Inchoroi, Sheonara - what an unspeakable Evil it represents. How its written, How it is revealed. This makes you like & side with the heroes which you would'nt. How high the stakes rise. I agree fully - those are THE villians of the fantasy literature. They reak of Auschwitz, of Stutthof. Only here, on my soil such an evil existed.
Kellhus - D&D IQ 25 guy. But such a person cannot be described. But RSB, RSB makes all the difference.
The cast - Akka & Esmenet & Inrau & Xinemus & Meketrig & Kellhus & Cnaiur! & Conphas! & Maithanet & Elezares & .... my god all, all - Athejari, Yalgrotta all are great.
The world - already defined by names but still so much different from other settings and races and history and sorcery made so, so TRUE.
The secrets - aha big behind names as well so much to imagine, so much to speculate. Seswatha dreams as an example. No-God is another it captivated my interest in 1st 2 books, what a foe - WHAT DO YOU SEE?
The WAR! - great epic battles not between nations but between civilizations. Very well written. The only better or on par battle description I have found in Sapkowski's books.
The Ending of the first trilogy - after knowing what is at stake and who is Kellhus and all. Akka comes and just is on top, steals the show.
Damnation & Gods - the axis of all the evility, ppl are damned here REALLY. I mean Poland is a catholic country but if you ask if ppl believe - yes, but in Hell - no. Its a kids story. Even if they do, Mr Devil is a 1800's smart ass dress in Prussian Noble Clothes who in fairy tales always looses against village wise women (MILF :-)). If ppl would immagine what really damnation is, like what Mangaecca did to get close to damnation 'feel' (in False Sun). I mean imagine every day - how it would change your actions & perceptions of the world. My God! Its Medieval Times squared. It touches everybody in Earwa. So this is a worldbuilding part not present in other books I have read.
And from damnation - the terror, the cruelty, the evil beyond other books. But due to damnation - fitting.
RSB - this guy, he is complete package. How? How can you write like that?
Quote from: Wilshire"Soft earth deeply plowed" is one of my favorite quotes.
I once described my ex like that.
It's a great plot, with great characters, as several of you have sufficiently enunciated. It's the philosophy that really reaches out to me, though. Or, rather, the aspects of humanity that the books challenge me to think about.
It is a world of such great uncertainty, much like ours. Where even the manifestation of pure evil has existential meltdowns (WHAT DO YOU SEE?). Where the wisest of the wise have indecipherable recurring nightmares featuring their mentor from thousands of years ago. A world that sees strife where there is misrepresentation of cultural difference. A world of illogic.
It speaks to us. We relate to it (soft earth deeply plowed, aside) and wish there were a way to see through the darkness. Then we are presented with the enlightened; and we cannot relate to them. It reminds me of a bit of speculation by astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson:QuoteIf you look at the closest genetic relative to human beings- the chimpanzees- we share like 98+% identical DNA, we are smarter than a chimpanzee. Let’s invent a measure of intelligence that make humans unique. Let’s say intelligence is your ability to compose poetry, symphonies, do art, math and science, let’s say. Let’s make that as the arbitrary definition of intelligence for the moment. Chimps can’t do any of that. Yet we share 98/99% identical DNA. The most brilliant chimp there ever was, maybe can do sign language. Well, our toddlers can do that. Toddlers. So, here’s what concerns me deeply. Deeply.
Everything that we are, that distinguishes us from chimps, emerges from that 1% difference in DNA. It has to because that’s the difference. The Hubble telescope, the grand… that’s in that 1%. Maybe, everything that we are that is not the chimp is not as smart compared to the chimp as we tell ourselves it is. Maybe the difference between constructing and launching a Hubble telescope and a chimp combining two finger motions as sign language- maybe that difference is not all that great. We tell ourselves it is. Just the same way we label our books optical illusions. We tell ourselves it’s a lot. Maybe it’s almost nothing.
How would we decide that? Imagine another life form. That’s 1% different from us. In the direction that we are different from the chimp. Think about that. We have 1% difference and we are building the Hubble telescope. Go another 1%. What are we to they? We would be drooling, blithering idiots in their presence. That’s what we would be.
They would take Stephen Hawking and roll him in front of their primate researchers and say well this one is like the most brilliant among them ’cause he can sorta do astrophysics in his head. Aw. Isn’t that cute. Little Johnny can do that too. Well that’s so cute. In fact, Johnny just did that… let me just get it… it’s on the refrigerator door. Here it is. He did it in his elementary school class. Think about how smart they would be. Quantum mechanics would be intuitive to their toddlers. Whole symphonies would be written by their children. And like I said, just put up on the refrigerator door- the way our pasta collages are on our refrigerator doors.
So, the notion that we’re gonna find some intelligent life and have a conversation with it? When was the last time you stopped to have a conversation with a worm? Or a bird? Well, you might have had a conversation but I don’t think you expected an answer, alright. So, we don’t have conversations with any other species on earth with whom we have DNA in common. To believe that some intelligent other species is gonna be interested in us, enough to have a conversation, they’ll look at our Hubble telescope and say, “isn’t that quaint… look at what they’re doing.”
So, I lay awake at nights wondering whether we as a species are simply too stupid to figure out the universe that we’re investigating. And maybe we need some other species 1% smarter than we are for, which string theory would be intuitive, for which all the greatest mysteries of the universe… from dark matter, dark energy, the origins of life, and all the frontiers of our thought would be something that they would just self intuit.
Well, there they are: the Dunyain. As one of those blathering idiots, I want to have a conversation with them. And so I keep reading in the hopes that I'll learn how.
Quote from: AjokliQuote from: Wilshire"Soft earth deeply plowed" is one of my favorite quotes.
I once described my ex like that.
lmao, pre or post X status? hope it got back to her :P
Quote from: WilshireQuote from: AjokliQuote from: Wilshire"Soft earth deeply plowed" is one of my favorite quotes.
I once described my ex like that.
lmao, pre or post X status? hope it got back to her
Pre and post. Oh, I'm sure it did.
QuoteWell, there they are: the Dunyain. As one of those blathering idiots, I want to have a conversation with them. And so I keep reading in the hopes that I'll learn how.
Splendid example. +1 Meyna.
I enjoy Bakker's prose. In a word: exciting. I don't feel such things anymore, but in the first couple of years of Bakker I would get a continuous buzz in the center of my head that felt exactly like a pre-orgasmic muscular contraction. His battle scenes have been superlative. I must love him merely for his descriptions, and one description above all - I'm sure everyone can recall, "ink of armpits" and "honey of unwashed anuses". For the latter alone, I forewent showering for a day, just so I could reach down there and... That's powerful (double entendre). Certainly, realistic. I can still picture the filthy horde. I can taste it. (Though don't get me wrong here, I didn't... I washed my hands.)
The characters: PoN for me has slightly subverted Bakker's notion of a "Subjunctive Self" while reading. As I am now, I certainly can not "relate" to any characters in any book I have read or can recall reading. In fact, I don't think I experienced this even pre-Bakker. Mostly, I would participate as a Gary-Stu type who would bend the circumstances and sarcastically advise the protagonists. It's probably a more narcissistic conceit. Post-Bakker, I feel simply as a detached spectator - I merely watch events unfold, and either they're interesting to me or not. In that way, I think Character becomes subsumed into Plot itself. Or something like that, maybe.
To elaborate: it's like I'm watching a movie instead of reading a book. I'm reading the book as a movie. Now, I don't much like movies any longer for the same reason that so much literature now seems dull post-Bakker. When I do watch a movie, though, what I mostly do is analyze the actors' faces and voices, and to an extent their words. I don't really care too much about their personalities or their hopes, their dreams, their troubles, their circumstances, their "flaws"... perhaps reading characters has become something akin to this.
Bottom line: I feel not one way or the other emotionally, with respect to Bakker's characters. Nothing they do "upsets" or "alienates" me or whatever. They are however, unlike most others to me now, interesting to hear about and observe. There's probably more that I could say about it, but I'm not competent to articulate these things.
...
They have the richest intonations and most expressive faces?
They sing with the God's voice!
Whoaa time out did you really not clean your cornhole so you could sniff it dude
Standard "method reading" practices.
I liek Bakker becus of the raep, teh black sperm, teh big alien dicks n kool stuff
Quote from: bbaztekWhoaa time out did you really not clean your cornhole so you could sniff it dude
I wonder how Bakker came up with that.
Quote from: Bakker UserQuote from: bbaztekWhoaa time out did you really not clean your cornhole so you could sniff it dude
I wonder how Bakker came up with that.
It's just science bbaztek.
More to the point, did it smell like honey?
Perhaps you could try alternate diets. :twisted:
Quote from: CurethanGenerally one eats with ones mouth.Quote from: Bakker UserQuote from: bbaztekWhoaa time out did you really not clean your cornhole so you could sniff it dude
I wonder how Bakker came up with that.
It's just science bbaztek.
More to the point, did it smell like honey?
Perhaps you could try alternate diets. :twisted:
The others laughed. Only Soma was unimpressed.
Wow. +1 for Laughs.
Meyna... I want to make a joke so bad but anything I think of is either wildly inappropriate (read trades humour) or lacks wit. +1 Method Reading. Just died.
Quote from: Callan S.Generally one eats with ones mouth.
"The foolish speak from the stomach, the clever from the tongue, the wise from the rectum, for they alone know where their shit comes from." - RSB (TPB)
Now that I think about it, there's quite a lot of abdominal/fecal imagery in Bakker's writing. Explain that!
Its generally omitted from public discourse, media, as "over the line?"
5. Layers of revelation - I have never read something where a re-read was so rewarding and actually gave me more than the initial read. The first times I read PoN I thought it merely about Kellhus dominating the three seas, a re-read was so different.
5. Layers of revelation - I have never read something where a re-read was so rewarding and actually gave me more than the initial read. The first times I read PoN I thought it merely about Kellhus dominating the three seas, a re-read was so different.
It feels like reading a different book the 2nd go around. I can never recommend highly enough doing a re-read of this series.