[H]

I guess I am just cold to the idea that the Consult wouldn't know what the Consult is really doing.  It just seems so counter-productive.  Not to mention the fact that such a shadowy behind-the-scenes move hardly seems like a move for an Erratic like Mek.  He is driven by his desire to remember, not a desire to manipulate from the shadows.

A Mekeritrig-Seswatha connection is possible though, since we are totally in the dark how Seswatha escapes the Wall of the Dead, with a Agonic Collar on him, and Mekeritrig seeming intent on making him reveal where the Heron Spear is.

[MSJ]

Wel, one thing pointed out that doesn't kill the thought of Seswatha behind them, but certainly renders them useless. Is Kellhus would've sensed the Mark on them if they knew magic. Unless, as Nerdanel said, he just doesn't reveal that to the reader. I never thought of that before, and is a great point.

[Wilshire]

I would guess that if he saw the mark it would have been mentioned tangentially, like it was when he was fighting Mek. But I think the true masterminds, if they were at Ishual, would have had to have been completely sequestered from Kellhus. Mark or not, I think he would have suspected, or have potentially suspected, that the truth was being obfuscated.

[H]

I want to kind of revise my theory, I think all the Dunyain are actually in the dark about the whole plan, necessarily.

What we're not privy to is who decided to send Moe out into the world, but there is no chance, in my mind, that it was just an accident.  Either they were somehow informed to do it, or somehow the circumstances were supremely contrived.

Thinking about it, if Moe was completely compromised after the first trip, how would sending him back out help?  They stated that they had him go out in the first place to make sure they were not compromised.  Why not have him "retreat" to the TTH like the "compromised" Pragma?  The story does not add up, as we're (really, Kellhus) told it.

[Wilshire]

Yup. That whole back story read like nonsense upon reflection, and/or after a second read.

[MSJ]

I agree, it changes nothing. Either they were isolated from Kellhus as Wilshire says, or someone outside the Dûnyain manipulating them.

[Wilshire]

I prefer to think that someone within the Dunyain are in the know, and that we have some historical tie-ins with Seswatah/Nil-Giccas/someone else from history.

[H]

I prefer to think that someone within the Dunyain are in the know, and that we have some historical tie-ins with Seswatah/Nil-Giccas/someone else from history.

I think there must be some kind of trip in the TTH that told Seswatha when He-Who-Would-Become-The-Harbinger was finally ready.  When that happened, Seswatha either appeared to certain Pragma (a la, Foundation Hari Selden), or Seswatha manipulated the Sranc to appear at Ishual and so the Pragma to send out Moe.

This is part of why I feel like someone in the Consult running this whole thing feel highly improbable, because in order to set this all in motion, it requires too much of Shae working against his own constituents.  If Shae spun all this, he would be putting A&A in the path of a huge amount of danger, and by extension, himself.  If something were to go wrong, he'd be almost all there is left.

[Bolivar]

I could definitely see Mekeritrig being one of the principals behind the Dunyain. I wrote this in the good or evil thread but I'm guessing Seswatha disclosed to him the location and significance of Ishual at Dagliash. I could see him and Shae being in on it together, since Shae considered him a friend before Aurang became his lover.

There's also little hints about the similarities between what Erratics say and the Dunyain principles. Not to mention "the Darkness that comes before" being personified by the goddess Onkhis, who Shae seems to worship, through his internal monolog in The False Sun.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

[MSJ]

This from Anaturinbor over on Westeros:

I should have said 'if someone has to go into the carapace' as I'm not completely on-board with that idea. But on a reread it seemed to me that Bakker has been prepping Achamian to become the NG from the very beginning. Could be part of Seswatha's grand plan even.

We was discussing who if anyone would placed in the carapace of the No-God. Thought it could be relevant to this discussion. Though I'm not of the opinion its true, I won't discount it. Thought its was interesting and something I haven't heard suggested before.

[profgrape]

"Poor" Akka just can't catch a break.

I wanted to ask (but chickened out) for Ant to elaborate on what clues he'd found during his reread. It's an interesting theory for sure.

[Wilshire]

Yeah I don't know about a person actually being inside the carapace. I always considered it to contain some kind of ethereal being.

"Poor" Akka just can't catch a break.

I wanted to ask (but chickened out) for Ant to elaborate on what clues he'd found during his reread. It's an interesting theory for sure.

Yes, hard to discuss the finer points without... well without the finer points!

[MSJ]

So, I'm almost at the end of TDTCB, the scene where Cnaüir is going over everything that has taken place. He's trying to figure out Moe and Kellhus's intentions. And he asks himself, "Is Kellhus still in contact with Meöenghus?". One can only assume he's thinking via dreams, and it got me thinking

If we go from Kellhus's story, the Pragma's received dreams, correct? And I know there is the whole deal that the sender has to know where the receiver is. Yet, the only instances we see this its via two Sorceror's. In TWP, isn't one stationed with Cnaüir? He explains the whole bit, right? Well if anyone can recieve the dreams than why need a sorceror as the receiver? What I'm getting at is it basically proves that someone either knew sorcery at Ishual, or it is rock solid proof that the story is a blatant lie.  Its not like we have any instances of a sorceror communicating with a non-sorceror. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't recall any, at all.

[H]

I think all the times we see that, it is via the Anagogis, or the Gnosis.  It stands to reason that the Psûkhe could work differently.

I still don't believe that the Pragma could be sorcerers.  Kellhus would see the Mark on them, which would compromise the whole point of the exercise. 

[Wilshire]

Maybe not a full blown  sorcerer, but its probably extremely likely that nearly everyone within Ishual can see the Onta, or at least a much great proportion of them than in the greater world. Bakker mentions somewhere in an interview that the traits the dunyain have been selecting fore over the years inadvertently select for the Few as well.

So, maybe not sorcerers, but at least magically inclined.

Maybe this is the pollution that required death? Receiving the dreams visibly changed their Onta to the other Dunyain, and it was far to much of a distraction.