[What Came Before]

Mmm, I doubt it Trisk.

"And without your eyes, your ability to discern what comes before is much reduced.  The snakes are but pinholes."

[What Came Before]

You may be right, but that quote sort of contradicts Kellhus suggesting that Moe was able to identify the skin spies by hearing subtle clues...someone no non-Dunyain had accomplished.

[What Came Before]

I've often wondered if Kellhus assertions about Moenghus' identifications don't turn out to be a retcon. I figure Bakker's pretty good for avoiding them but I can't simply rule it out.

However, I also advocate that Kellhus was out and out wrong in his narrative regarding Moenghus' journey - there are too many discrepancies between Mallahet's reputation and Kellhus' assumptions about his father, among other things.

[What Came Before]

Before the First Apocalypse the Dunyain were a heretical community of Kuniuric ascetics (originally based in Sauglish) who sought enlightenment (the Absolute) through the study and practice of reason (the Logos). They were a young movement, but they had already suffered sporadic persecution for some time. But since the Kunniat faith practiced by the High Norsirai was not hierarchical, no concerted effort was made to punish their atheism.

[What Came Before]

To add to my Ishual is the City in the Republic and the Anasurimbor are simply the Guardians. Straight from the lecture slides - I'm not going to comment on the merits of the professor... simply a fitting analogy:

"Everything is to be held in common - no private property, men and woman, education (based on merit, requiring of censorship & philosophy, Noble Lie), eugenics - reproduction is done through a fixed lottery run by the philosopher kings to produce super-soldiers - one family."

[Wilshire]

Reviving a whole thread to ask a question about a quote that isn't really even related to the topic. Oh well.

Madness had this in a post earlier in this thread.

"'What are they, Pragma?'

'Exemplary defectives... Specimens. We retain them for purposes of eduction.' The Pragma simulated a smile. 'For students such as you, Kellhus.'

My bold.

What makes them Exemplary? Why use that word at all? I don't see how that descriptor was helpful. The Pragma would have simply said "Defectives".

Perhaps the reason they are exemplary was because they possessed all the desirable traits of the Dunyain, maybe even made it through the Thousand Thousand halls, but the Dunyain simply didn't have enough room in the ranks. After all, population must have been strictly controlled. The controlling word here is defective, rather than exemplary. These were exemplary students, whose only 'defect' was being alive at the wrong time.

So many atrocities...

[Cüréthañ]

ex·em·pla·ry  (g-zmpl-r)
adj.
1. Worthy of imitation; commendable: exemplary behavior.
2. Serving as a model.
3. Serving as an illustration; typical.
4. Serving as a warning; admonitory.

I think the later definitions are pertinent, Wilshire.  The first is also suitable when you consider each defective presents a specific displayed emotion.

[Triskele]

Yeah, exemplary is a word sort of like "exciting" in that it tends to invoke positive connotations even though it must not necessarily be positive. 

Still a very interesting find.  I don't recall pondering the usage of that word in that place.

Man, still so interested in what we will or will not see @ Ishual.

Is Scott going to give us the rest of that chapter, or must we arrange a plying?

[Wilshire]

ex·em·pla·ry  (g-zmpl-r)
adj.
1. Worthy of imitation; commendable: exemplary behavior.
2. Serving as a model.
3. Serving as an illustration; typical.
4. Serving as a warning; admonitory.

I think the later definitions are pertinent, Wilshire.  The first is also suitable when you consider each defective presents a specific displayed emotion.

Wow, I had no idea. Exemplary means serving as an example. Well I'm a bit embarrassed.

Yeah, exemplary is a word sort of like "exciting" in that it tends to invoke positive connotations even though it must not
Man, still so interested in what we will or will not see @ Ishual.

Is Scott going to give us the rest of that chapter, or must we arrange a plying?

Why did he have to end every POV as a cliff hanger ending? He's merciless.

The original Chapter 1 post did seem to suggest that there was going to be another half at some point. I bet his publisher got word and told him he couldn't do it.

[Somnambulist]

What makes them Exemplary? Why use that word at all? I don't see how that descriptor was helpful. The Pragma would have simply said "Defectives".

It may be that they still have births in Ishual that don't have 'balance.'  Exemplary defectives may be dunyain-born, but are like Inrilatas and 'show' more emotion than the dunyain can themselves express.  They may be 'exemplary' in that they are able to display all emotions, and thus are indispensable in the teaching of face reading.  How could a dispassionate society learn about emotions unless they had ready access to those who could display them?  That's my bs theory.

[Madness]

What makes them Exemplary? Why use that word at all? I don't see how that descriptor was helpful. The Pragma would have simply said "Defectives".

It may be that they still have births in Ishual that don't have 'balance.'  Exemplary defectives may be dunyain-born, but are like Inrilatas and 'show' more emotion than the dunyain can themselves express.  They may be 'exemplary' in that they are able to display all emotions, and thus are indispensable in the teaching of face reading.  How could a dispassionate society learn about emotions unless they had ready access to those who could display them?  That's my bs theory.

It's nice. But it could also just be a fictionalized autism or something: "this one can't stop smiling, get it to the unmasking room and work some neuropuncture."

EDIT:

Is Scott going to give us the rest of that chapter, or must we arrange a plying?

You should probably get your plying tools out.

Wow, I had no idea. Exemplary means serving as an example. Well I'm a bit embarrassed.

Learning a new word everyday improves cognition and lowers risk of brain-diseases like Alzheimer's or Parkinson's.

The original Chapter 1 post did seem to suggest that there was going to be another half at some point. I bet his publisher got word and told him he couldn't do it.

I have faith that Pat will have an excerpt before TUC...

How quickly do you rewrite, Bakker?!

[Ishammael]

Just to reinforce the "Exemplary" portion..
In a past life, I was a claims adjuster for a large insurance company.  I handled a lot of product related claims.  As part of our investigation, we would obtain an "exemplar" to test on and see what happens.  For example, if a washing machine caught fire to a house, we would get a stock issue washing machine of the same type to test and try to replicate the conditions and events that triggered the loss.
I hadn't thought of it in this context until reading these recent posts, but this seems to be what the intent would be here.
Consider the dead horse beaten...

[Madness]

Lol - sounds like an awesome cross between Mythbusters and Never Ever Do This At Home.

[mrganondorf]

All the talk about neuropuncture and exemplary defectives has got me wondering if Ishual is topoi because of thousands of years of suffering, like the nonman mansion in TJE.  I think that whatever Ishual is, it is something Seswatha cooked up way back when.  He needed multiple strategies to defeat the Consult in the fullness of time so he created the Dunyain and the Mandate (and other groups?) to eventually get it done.  Akka and Mimy find the Heron Spear deep in the Thouthou halls, been there all along, since the scylvendi only got their hands on a decoy.  0.o

[mrganondorf]

Blah, forgot to say--what if the dunyain are in Atrithau and have been for a long long time?  There is so much silence about Atrithau I'm suspecting something.