If sorcerers are damned, why did any of them war against the Consult the first time? Why don't the Mandati, upon touching the heart, seek out the Consult instead of fighting it?
I'm still having trouble with this idea that people know they are damned but are just totally chill about it.
Why does anyone join the Few at all?
Well, sciborg, you seem a pretty humble person. I compare the decision to "become" one of the Few to those boys who exercise their powers in Chronicle. It's not one.
Limitless power at the whim of abstraction?
Also:Quote from: sciborg2why did any of them war against the Consult the first time? Why don't the Mandati, upon touching the heart, seek out the Consult instead of fighting it?
I don't think that Seswatha, the Mandate, or any living sorcerer at all, knows of the Inverse Fire. Plus the Gnostic Schools of the Ancient North repudiated the Mangaecca. Fighting them during the First Apocalypse was just finishing the job, in my opinion.
Chronicle?
There just seems to be casually air to damnation among the Schools. I understand not all of them really think themselves damned, but it seems a good number of them do.
Because they all are made of the same morally charged soul-stuff as regular people. Meaning they still empathize and care about things beyond their own future.
The inverse fire will burn that out, but otherwise you need to be born with a 'deficiency' ala Conphas or be bat-shit insane like Cnaiur in order to escape the moral repugnance of what the consult are trying to achieve.
They are seeking escape from judgement - not some correction of the cosmic morality.
Before Kellhus, many among the schools were highly secular. That is, there was little belief in damnation, or they had the capacity to rationalize it away. Plus, the Consult is hidden and most don't believe in it (there's probably also like a 99% chance they rape and kill you on the spot, just because they were feeling frisky).
After Kellhus, damnation of those stained with the Mark is revoked by the Aspect-Emperor. Now, Mimara reveals to us that this is fact not the case...
Lastly, they (and much less we) don't know how real damnation is until they die. Nothing revealed by Seswatha's heart shows damnation. All they see is how screwed up shit got when the No-God came back. Some probably hold to the hope that death is just death, others may hope that ancestor-spirits or some God or another will save them from Ciphrang. Others may think it will not be that bad.
As readers, all we know about damnation is the following:
1. Sorcery and sin leave a stain (the stain is not always the same).
2. The Outside is real, and souls do stand to be judged.
That's it. Poor Shaeonanra thinks its pretty much THE WORST THING EVER, but I don't trust any 'revelation' given by the Inchoroi.
Even if we assume it's a Biblical analogue, there's probably as much debate in their world as there is in ours about the nature of hell.
Quote from: Jorgethey had the capacity to rationalize it away.
This, methinks.
We also don't know the nature of Achamian's damnation, Jorge, which is paramount to this "Sorcerers are damned/undamned."
Also, as much as I was mistaken to the nature of the interview, I really believe that the Inchoroi also added the Sorcerers are damned and Nonmen are false. The Inchoroi added the Nonmen to the Tusk for the same reasons they'd add sorcery. It's something novel and they feared it.
But Bakker has only admitted the Nonmen. It might explain why Titirga can have an Inward Mark.
Also, sciborg, Chronicle is a movie.
The one thing I'd tend to trust from the Inchoroi are their views on damnation; if only because it's the only explanation for their actions so far. They behave consistently with said explanation, so I think they at least truly believe they are damned.
Seswatha's heart also gives you moral certainty to a degree similar to the inverse fire. You're not just watching atrocities, you're feeling them. I imagine it would be difficult to feel anything but loathing for the Consult with a little Seswatha in your head reminding you of the horrors he's seen.
Quote from: JorgeLastly, they (and much less we) don't know how real damnation is until they die. Nothing revealed by Seswatha's heart shows damnation. All they see is how screwed up shit got when the No-God came back.
To see how screwed up shit became with the arrival of the No-God might just be good enough to never want to have anything to do with them at, all no matter how real damnation might be.
Then again, since Mandati forfit their souls to gain the world, they all know that they're damned one way or another. That's a core part of their order.Quote from: JorgeThat's it. Poor Shaeonanra thinks its pretty much THE WORST THING EVER, but I don't trust any 'revelation' given by the Inchoroi.
Shaeonanra already knows all about damnation, etc. doesn't he? He's able to rationalize it all away. It's just that the Inverse Fire apparently tells him it's real. And rather unpleasant.
@ Tony and Sharmat
The Inverse Fire only convinces them, allegedly, that they are damned. Not what they are damned for.
Also, we now know of two things in the World that contend to judge absolutely. The Judging Eye and the Inverse Fire. Neither of which has actually shown us that sorcery is a cause for damnation.
What happens when Mimara brings her Tear of God and gazes upon the Inverse Fire with her Judging Eye...
I think that's some important shit.
Quote from: Tony P
Then again, since Mandati forfit their souls to gain the world, they all know that they're damned one way or another. That's a core part of their order.
I totally agree with that. Also I think you must be a special kind of evil to be willing to kill thousands if not millions of people just to save your own soul.
And most of the sorcerers probably don't know about the save-your-soul-by-sealing-off-hell thing.
Can't resist adding how stupidly pointless damnation is - unless the soul is coming back, what is the point of torturing it? Nothing! Nothing at all! It's pure, horrific aesthetic!
I'm not knocking the setting in saying that - it's a reflection of the god thingies the setting has, and just how bloody minded they are.
Quote from: AceI totally agree with that. Also I think you must be a special kind of evil to be willing to kill thousands if not millions of people just to save your own soul.Evil for wanting to avoid hideous torture for a thousand years? Really? Wait, not a thousand years, no. Forever!
Animals backed into a corner, snarling? I agree. Evil for wanting to avoid a massive evil? Not so sure.
Not to mention what is it when people don't die, but go on as some sort of spirity things. How much is that killing? Is it just being really nasty instead, kind of like grevous assault and then forced exile upon a person?
Quote from: Callan S.Can't resist adding how stupidly pointless damnation is - unless the soul is coming back, what is the point of torturing it? Nothing! Nothing at all! It's pure, horrific aesthetic!
I'm not knocking the setting in saying that - it's a reflection of the god thingies the setting has, and just how bloody minded they are.
Well, there has to be a consequence in the afterlife, if there is an afterlife. Most blatantly a deterrent and/or balance for reward for good behaviour. But if you look at the principle clinically, it's a bit of cardboard cut-out.
Apparently multiquoting is not possible, or I don't know how just yet, but you're awefully tolerant of the Consult. Murdering millions to save their souls is akin to animals driven into a corner? I could understand killing someone to save your own life (him or me, right now), but to kill several people? Or even hundreds, thousands, millions? How is that anything but evil, especially since the only reason they do it is purely selfish?QuoteNot to mention what is it when people don't die, but go on as some sort of spirity things. How much is that killing? Is it just being really nasty instead, kind of like grevous assault and then forced exile upon a person?
It's not quite killing because the souls live on? I'm not sure this is very comforting...
Quote from: Callan S.Evil for wanting to avoid hideous torture for a thousand years? Really? Wait, not a thousand years, no. Forever!
Even if they are damned and an eternity of pain awaits them, thats no excuse. Its their own fault. They choose to be sorcerers and knew that damnation is the price for that power. And we don't talk about shooting down an attacker but of complete genocide, so one guy does not have to go to hell. So yeah, really really evil.
And even if those people are all going to heaven, they will be raped to pieces by Sranc first.
As far as the initial question goes, I think that kind of evil is just to much for the normal sorcerers. Some would probably sacrifice three maidens to save their souls, but not destroy humanity.
If *I* were Achamian, then it would be very simple really:
The Inchoroi are an unspeakable abomination.
The only way I would switch to their side is if the Inchoroi showed me, the way they showed Shaeonanra, just how bad Damnation is.
QuoteWell, there has to be a consequence in the afterlife, if there is an afterlife. Most blatantly a deterrent and/or balance for reward for good behaviour.If you were to describe having some sort of signs that float in front of people informing them about all this continuously, I might have some amount of common ground with you.
Otherwise no, this is as pointless as hell (literally!). WHO is ceasing to do bad things?
And why ETERNITY? Maybe a hundred years of torture or something (and even that's pretty vindictive), but how the heck does eternity work out in your mind? To put it into more graspable terms, if I steal $100 from you, I should pay $1 a day to you in the afterlife...for eternity? In such a case I'd say the system and your part in it is the criminal! An eternity of torture for a period of torture? WTF?Quoteor I don't know how just yet, but you're awefully tolerant of the Consult.So's the legal system for various criminals - when someone found raped and dead, they don't just hang the first person who seems the perpetrator. They go to trial. Seems awfully tollerant, but there you go. And even then innocent people go to jail...or the gas chamber.QuoteIt's not quite killing because the souls live on? I'm not sure this is very comforting...Define for me the afterlife. If it's like this one, but you spend more time on floaty clouds and having awesome parties, perhaps you should find that comforting. Certainly alot of people in this world PRAY for an after life, possibly even one like I describe.
Forced exiling people? I grant that's pretty offensive.
But what if people do have eternal souls...and someone finds a way to kill their soul. Are you going to treat a normal Vs eternal soul killing as the same? Both are as bad? If your not going to treat them as the same, then to the degree you don't, why are you questioning the distinction I draw?
Ace,QuoteEven if they are damned and an eternity of pain awaits them, thats no excuse. Its their own fault.Sorry bud, let's draw a line of responsibility - let's say you are an enforcer of the damnation system. It's not purely their own fault - their damnation only happens because you give it the go ahead. Once we include you in the picture, rather than just looking at them as if the only person involved is them, what then? It's their fault that you're torturing them? You just can't control your own body or something?QuoteAnd even if those people are all going to heaven, they will be raped to pieces by Sranc first.Yeah, weird how heaven works that way. Just letting that shit happen.
Also weird is how what someone is responsible for and isn't responsible for is designated. So apparently heaven is NOT responsible for policing the sranc rape, yet at the same time they are allowed to enact the damnation torture because they are totally responsible.
It just seems a fucking cop out of responsibility.
Where's the line where heaven has no responsibility? It seems they like to damn people from a world they put no effort into making a better place. Ie, no responsibility taken towards the world, but certainly responsibility when it comes to the self righteous damnation designations of the worlds peoples. It's like someone who can't be bothered helping to parent someone elses children, but wants to enact parental punishment on them when it suits them. Someone who doesn't want to help make the bread, but is all to happy to eat it (and complain about it if it does not suit their aesthetic).
Seriously, it reminds me of mmorpgs, where people complain about gankers ganking them.
There's this human sort of short sightedness, triggered by focusing only on anyone who seems the assailant. They don't blame the developers for writing code that enables gankers to gank, no, they just blame the gankers. The puppet master developers are simply invisible, unaccountable, due to this blindness. Here it's the same - the consult is all people can see. The developers and their damnation code they enact are invisible.
I've wondered before and I wonder again just how much I could hide in this crawlspace and fuck with lives, if I were so evil to do so. Like I send some guy with a vest of explosives (he knows I can trigger) to kill you, you kill the dude instead and...just wander off, the threats gone? I'd just be so out of the picture? Absolutely occluded in the scheme of things? I hope not - the thought terrorfies me.
I don't like the consult. They are fucked. But I wouldn't put an explosive vest on them then pretend all their actions are their own.
Quote from: sciborg2If sorcerers are damned, why did any of them war against the Consult the first time? Why don't the Mandati, upon touching the heart, seek out the Consult instead of fighting it?
Well, your question answers itself doesn't it? Sewastha's Heart automatically inoculates a sorcerer against the Consult. Non-Mandate sorcerers didn't believe in the Consult (or damnation) before TTT, so why would they join something that didn't exist?
Quote from: CoyoteWell, your question answers itself doesn't it? Sewastha's Heart automatically inoculates a sorcerer against the Consult. Non-Mandate sorcerers didn't believe in the Consult (or damnation) before TTT, so why would they join something that didn't exist?Wow, that really makes sense! Sewastha would likely stick in something like that (heck, if you can make the dreams happen...).
To be fair, I'm sure that most of the Schools would be almost entirely seduced by the Inverse Fire - excepting the Mandate, Swayal, and individual defections either way.
Stuff from "The False Sun". Do not open if you haven't read it or don't plan to.(click to show/hide)
Just to add that I'd be surprised if any of the old Anagogic schools have yet considered the Consult as an option. They knew they were damned; they have also only recently learnt that the Consult are still active. In addition it's likely that all the apparati of the Saik and the Scarlet Spires are Kellhus' creatures; he's got them all by the balls, both by the promise of the Gnosis (which was only granted to the Swayal via the Mandate), and the revocation of their damnation.
Quote from: CoyoteWell, your question answers itself doesn't it? Sewastha's Heart automatically inoculates a sorcerer against the Consult. Non-Mandate sorcerers didn't believe in the Consult (or damnation) before TTT, so why would they join something that didn't exist?
One thing that will be a big question is if Seswatha saw the Inverse Fire and came to a different conclusion.
There may be other Nonmen who aren't so convinced...after all, Ses' had to have had help getting the Heron Spear no?
Bakker is all about trauma being the memories that stick. The First Apocalypse dominates the Dreams of the Mandate, excepting Achamian, and easily stand as the most traumatic experiences of Seswatha's life. I'm sure if Seswatha experienced the Inverse Fire that would be Dream Numero 1, neh?
Unless the dreams are subject to editing or censorship through some mechanism.
I wonder if Seswatha has avoided damnation by sort of maintaining his soul among the Mandati.
Given how Kellhus got the gnosis, you might well be onto something.
If the notion of ancestor worship is based in fact, Seswatha may well be kind of a big deal in the outside. No-one ever mention how he died.
Quote from: The SharmatI wonder if Seswatha has avoided damnation by sort of maintaining his soul among the Mandati.I believe Seswatha's heart is the Bakker-equivalent of a Horcrux. We have seen before (Wathi dolls, animata) that souls can be bound to objects, so this is not far-fetched at all.
Of course, this being Bakker, the most important difference from the standard Potter-universe Horcrux would probably be that rape would have been involved in it's creation in addition to murder (in what order is unclear).
Easy question that I'll answer with a question. Why don't more atheists today convert to something?
Converting to a religion has got to be easier than joining the consult. Lol, right?
I mean just look at TDTCB, even AFTER Maithanet came there was plenty of apathy, disbelief, among the people. No one's ever truly worried about their soul.
How do I know this? Well, are we worried? As Bakker has said in the books, everyone to some degree or another thinks they're special, thinks they're God, thinks they've undamnable. Those that know to know better, they're the few who go to the consult. I mean, Moenghus obviously heard about hell, but he didn't REALLY know. That's why Kellhus says that once you get to really know about your damnation you can't help but blame God for "God's" injustice, you literally won't be able to help but go consult.
Lol, thanks Madness.
I think you may be onto something when you say that the Inchoroi probably added the sorcery part. I mean, they were damned wo ever getting into sorcery, and they probably hated Seswatha and his ilk.
I don't think I can imagine them putting together a holy book for humans and NOT saying that. Maybe in the end sorcery is like all action in Bakkers world as I'm starting to suspect: if its not consciously for God, its a sin. Sorcery as sin is just a quicker accumulator than most, because you're not only interacting with creation, you're also fundamentally changing creation in some way.
Well, I was figuring that the Nonmen would have conditioned the Inchoroi to hate/fear sorcery long before humans because of the initial Cuno-Inchoroi wars where the Inchoroi relied solely on their weapons of light and Nonmen allies. Then they seduced the Aporetic Nonmen, then grafted the ability to see the onta themselves, then much, much later Aurang and Aurax would have encountered Human sorcery.
I didn't mean man had conditioned the Inchoroi to fear it, just that they feared it and so would include a ban on it when writing human scripture.
I think we're agreed there. If you mean the Inchoroi feared sorcery and probably included Sorcery is Damned on the Tusk. Cause I don't get why the Holiest of the Five Tribes were apparently Shamans - which Kellhus is pretending? to be - yet sorcery was ultimately prohibited by Man's original beliefs. Of course, its also been argued that Man's Gods are just the Inchoroi anyways - depending on how much you think Bakker's interview answer answers.
So many questions.
I think he said they made only one adition, which was 'thou shalt smiteth the non-men'.
Really don't need encouragement to hate sorcerers. All they do is fry people and blow shit up.
I believe sciborg corrected me when I wrongly asserted that Bakker had said both Nonmen and Sorcery were added to the Tusk. You are correct, Curethan. Transcendiot and I are speculating of further omissions on Bakker's part.
They're usually inducted into whatever school at a very young age... and the family probably receives some form of compensation; a peasant family isn't going to really care (they can have another one, right?).
No one really knows what sort of changes the Mangaecca have gone through in the intervening centuries. They are undoubtedly immortal, but I'm willing to bet they are also much more physically acquainted with inchoroi technology/other genetic manipulation. If a sorcerer isn't turned off by that (just look at how well it turned out for the Nonmen), or much less by the abhorrence of what the consult stands for, then the challenge of getting up North without dying would be enough to deter him (it was enough of a challenge for Achamian and an expedition that was prepared for him by Kellhus just to get to Sauglish).
Supposing one did the impossible and made it all the way North, there is in addition no guarantee he wouldn't be killed, enslaved, experimented upon, raped to death, etc.
Yeah, they don't seem to be actively proselytizing.
Quote from: The SharmatYeah, they don't seem to be actively proselytizing.
They should talk to the born again Christians at my University. They could certainly teach them a thing or two about shouting on street corners.
'undamnable'
There must be some special node of the brain that converts mobster style beatings into the very pinacle of evaluation. 'Everybody thinks they are undanable' - who's 'undamnable'?
I always figured the Consult doesn't recruit people because they rely so utterly on secrecy and deceit. They kill and replace people, they don't recruit them. Skinspies live longer, are harder to kill, more trustworthy and so on. They don't need more sorcerers right now, no matter how powerful they are. The only useful sorcerers in the world are the Mandate and they haven't even fought them in centuries or thereabouts.
I think the breeding of Ursranc is very telling. If they're bred to be more stable and controlling sranc that can use more complicated gear and use actual tactics, they're probably bred with humans in some suitably unpleasant way or just genetically altered to be useful as warriors or assistants. There must be some humans working with the Consult that aren't sorcerers and they've got to be fucking something. If they're Few, great, they can be taught some magic but I don't think they actively breed just for that. They rely on constructs and few of them seem magical. They rely on weapon races. They rely on sneaking and people not even realising they exist.
...
I just don't believe the Consult have anything but some Nonmen (who will have plenty of sorcerers) ... I think the Consult's forces will just be a few very old names of unspeakable power and a lot of chaff. I don't see any need in their recent history (couple of centuries, hell even couple of decades) that suggests they'd ever want/need lots of sorcerers in the first place.
I think the breeding of Ursranc is very telling. If they're bred to be more stable and controlling sranc that can use more complicated gear and use actual tactics, they're probably bred with humans in some suitably unpleasant way or just genetically altered to be useful as warriors or assistants. There must be some humans working with the Consult that aren't sorcerers and they've got to be fucking something. If they're Few, great, they can be taught some magic but I don't think they actively breed just for that.