[What Came Before]

Can't resist adding how stupidly pointless damnation is - unless the soul is coming back, what is the point of torturing it? Nothing! Nothing at all! It's pure, horrific aesthetic!

I'm not knocking the setting in saying that - it's a reflection of the god thingies the setting has, and just how bloody minded they are.

Well, there has to be a consequence in the afterlife, if there is an afterlife. Most blatantly a deterrent and/or balance for reward for good behaviour. But if you look at the principle clinically, it's a bit of cardboard cut-out.

Apparently multiquoting is not possible, or I don't know how just yet, but you're awefully tolerant of the Consult. Murdering millions to save their souls is akin to animals driven into a corner? I could understand killing someone to save your own life (him or me, right now), but to kill several people? Or even hundreds, thousands, millions? How is that anything but evil, especially since the only reason they do it is purely selfish?

Not to mention what is it when people don't die, but go on as some sort of spirity things. How much is that killing? Is it just being really nasty instead, kind of like grevous assault and then forced exile upon a person?

It's not quite killing because the souls live on? I'm not sure this is very comforting...

[What Came Before]

Evil for wanting to avoid hideous torture for a thousand years? Really? Wait, not a thousand years, no. Forever!

Even if they are damned and an eternity of pain awaits them, thats no excuse. Its their own fault. They choose to be sorcerers and knew that damnation is the price for that power. And we don't talk about shooting down an attacker but of complete genocide, so one guy does not have to go to hell. So yeah, really really evil.

And even if those people are all going to heaven, they will be raped to pieces by Sranc first.

As far as the initial question goes, I think that kind of evil is just to much for the normal sorcerers. Some would probably sacrifice three maidens to save their souls, but not destroy humanity.

[What Came Before]

If *I* were Achamian, then it would be very simple really:

The Inchoroi are an unspeakable abomination.

The only way I would switch to their side is if the Inchoroi showed me, the way they showed Shaeonanra, just how bad Damnation is.

[What Came Before]

Well, there has to be a consequence in the afterlife, if there is an afterlife. Most blatantly a deterrent and/or balance for reward for good behaviour.

If you were to describe having some sort of signs that float in front of people informing them about all this continuously, I might have some amount of common ground with you.

Otherwise no, this is as pointless as hell (literally!). WHO is ceasing to do bad things?

And why ETERNITY? Maybe a hundred years of torture or something (and even that's pretty vindictive), but how the heck does eternity work out in your mind? To put it into more graspable terms, if I steal $100 from you, I should pay $1 a day to you in the afterlife...for eternity? In such a case I'd say the system and your part in it is the criminal! An eternity of torture for a period of torture? WTF?

or I don't know how just yet, but you're awefully tolerant of the Consult.

So's the legal system for various criminals - when someone found raped and dead, they don't just hang the first person who seems the perpetrator. They go to trial. Seems awfully tollerant, but there you go. And even then innocent people go to jail...or the gas chamber.

It's not quite killing because the souls live on? I'm not sure this is very comforting...

Define for me the afterlife. If it's like this one, but you spend more time on floaty clouds and having awesome parties, perhaps you should find that comforting. Certainly alot of people in this world PRAY for an after life, possibly even one like I describe.

Forced exiling people? I grant that's pretty offensive.

But what if people do have eternal souls...and someone finds a way to kill their soul. Are you going to treat a normal Vs eternal soul killing as the same? Both are as bad? If your not going to treat them as the same, then to the degree you don't, why are you questioning the distinction I draw?


Ace,

Even if they are damned and an eternity of pain awaits them, thats no excuse. Its their own fault.

Sorry bud, let's draw a line of responsibility - let's say you are an enforcer of the damnation system. It's not purely their own fault - their damnation only happens because you give it the go ahead. Once we include you in the picture, rather than just looking at them as if the only person involved is them, what then? It's their fault that you're torturing them? You just can't control your own body or something?

And even if those people are all going to heaven, they will be raped to pieces by Sranc first.

Yeah, weird how heaven works that way. Just letting that shit happen.

Also weird is how what someone is responsible for and isn't responsible for is designated. So apparently heaven is NOT responsible for policing the sranc rape, yet at the same time they are allowed to enact the damnation torture because they are totally responsible.

It just seems a fucking cop out of responsibility.

Where's the line where heaven has no responsibility? It seems they like to damn people from a world they put no effort into making a better place. Ie, no responsibility taken towards the world, but certainly responsibility when it comes to the self righteous damnation designations of the worlds peoples. It's like someone who can't be bothered helping to parent someone elses children, but wants to enact parental punishment on them when it suits them. Someone who doesn't want to help make the bread, but is all to happy to eat it (and complain about it if it does not suit their aesthetic).

Seriously, it reminds me of mmorpgs, where people complain about gankers ganking them.

There's this human sort of short sightedness, triggered by focusing only on anyone who seems the assailant. They don't blame the developers for writing code that enables gankers to gank, no, they just blame the gankers. The puppet master developers are simply invisible, unaccountable, due to this blindness. Here it's the same - the consult is all people can see. The developers and their damnation code they enact are invisible.

I've wondered before and I wonder again just how much I could hide in this crawlspace and fuck with lives, if I were so evil to do so. Like I send some guy with a vest of explosives (he knows I can trigger) to kill you, you kill the dude instead and...just wander off, the threats gone? I'd just be so out of the picture? Absolutely occluded in the scheme of things? I hope not - the thought terrorfies me.

I don't like the consult. They are fucked. But I wouldn't put an explosive vest on them then pretend all their actions are their own.

[What Came Before]

If sorcerers are damned, why did any of them war against the Consult the first time? Why don't the Mandati, upon touching the heart, seek out the Consult instead of fighting it?

Well, your question answers itself doesn't it? Sewastha's Heart automatically inoculates a sorcerer against the Consult. Non-Mandate sorcerers didn't believe in the Consult (or damnation) before TTT, so why would they join something that didn't exist?

[What Came Before]

Well, your question answers itself doesn't it? Sewastha's Heart automatically inoculates a sorcerer against the Consult. Non-Mandate sorcerers didn't believe in the Consult (or damnation) before TTT, so why would they join something that didn't exist?

Wow, that really makes sense! Sewastha would likely stick in something like that (heck, if you can make the dreams happen...).

[What Came Before]

To be fair, I'm sure that most of the Schools would be almost entirely seduced by the Inverse Fire - excepting the Mandate, Swayal, and individual defections either way.

[What Came Before]

Stuff from "The False Sun". Do not open if you haven't read it or don't plan to.

(click to show/hide)

"The False Sun" explained this a lot as it made clear that in Titirga's day, they believed they could avoid damnation by worshipping the spaces between the gods, like the Nonmen. So, a well-behaved Sorcerer didn't need to side with the Consult to avoid damnation. There might still be a problem if you were going to be damned anyway for other reasons, though, which might explain Shae's motivation for seeking other ways of salvation.

However, It certainly seems this idea either has been forgotten or disproved since then. So the question is still open why they don't side with the Consult today. Probably, the average Sorcerer outside of the Mandate wouldn't know the motive of the Consult or what damnation actually implies.  So he/she can live on by happily rationalizing this abstract idea and/or embrace atheism.

But Aurang continued his shining scrutiny of Titirga. A transgression that Shaeönanra found unnerving.

“Do you not fear damnation?“

A careful look from the Hero-Mage.

“The Nonmen…” he said evenly. “They have taught us how to hide our Voices. How to bypass the Outside, find Oblivion.”

Eyes like bladders of ink, each reflecting the tripods across their shining curve. The fluting of gill-tissues along the neck. “You worship the spaces between the Gods…”

“Yes.”

A rasp like the screams of faraway children tangled in the wind. Inchoroi laughter. “You are already damned. All of you are already damned.“

“So say you.”

A deep chested rumble. Popping mucous. “So says the Inverse Fire.”

[What Came Before]

Just to add that I'd be surprised if any of the old Anagogic schools have yet considered the Consult as an option.  They knew they were damned; they have also only recently learnt that the Consult are still active.  In addition it's likely that all the apparati of the Saik and the Scarlet Spires are Kellhus' creatures; he's got them all by the balls, both by the promise of the Gnosis (which was only granted to the Swayal via the Mandate), and the revocation of their damnation.

[What Came Before]

Well, your question answers itself doesn't it? Sewastha's Heart automatically inoculates a sorcerer against the Consult. Non-Mandate sorcerers didn't believe in the Consult (or damnation) before TTT, so why would they join something that didn't exist?

One thing that will be a big question is if Seswatha saw the Inverse Fire and came to a different conclusion.

There may be other Nonmen who aren't so convinced...after all, Ses' had to have had help getting the Heron Spear no?

[What Came Before]

Bakker is all about trauma being the memories that stick. The First Apocalypse dominates the Dreams of the Mandate, excepting Achamian, and easily stand as the most traumatic experiences of Seswatha's life. I'm sure if Seswatha experienced the Inverse Fire that would be Dream Numero 1, neh?

[What Came Before]

Unless the dreams are subject to editing or censorship through some mechanism.

I wonder if Seswatha has avoided damnation by sort of maintaining his soul among the Mandati.

[What Came Before]

Given how Kellhus got the gnosis, you might well be onto something.

If the notion of ancestor worship is based in fact, Seswatha may well be kind of a big deal in the outside.  No-one ever mention how he died.

[What Came Before]

I wonder if Seswatha has avoided damnation by sort of maintaining his soul among the Mandati.

I believe Seswatha's heart is the Bakker-equivalent of a Horcrux. We have seen before (Wathi dolls, animata) that souls can be bound to objects, so this is not far-fetched at all.

Of course, this being Bakker, the most important difference from the standard Potter-universe Horcrux would probably be that rape would have been involved in it's creation in addition to murder (in what order is unclear).

[What Came Before]

Easy question that I'll answer with a question. Why don't more atheists today convert to something?

Converting to a religion has got to be easier than joining the consult. Lol, right?

I mean just look at TDTCB, even AFTER Maithanet came there was plenty of apathy, disbelief, among the people. No one's ever truly worried about their soul.

How do I know this? Well, are we worried? As Bakker has said in the books, everyone to some degree or another thinks they're special, thinks they're God, thinks they've undamnable. Those that know to know better, they're the few who go to the consult. I mean, Moenghus obviously heard about hell, but he didn't REALLY know. That's why Kellhus says that once you get to really know about your damnation you can't help but blame God for "God's" injustice, you literally won't be able to help but go consult.