The Second Apocalypse
Miscellaneous Chatter => General Misc. => Topic started by: Wilshire on June 26, 2014, 03:20:19 pm
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UPDATE (March 2016):
I found a way to make it. See the results of my labor here: Custom leather bound: The Darkness that Comes Before (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1603.0).
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I dream of one day having made a set of Prince of Nothing books with custom leather bindings, like what Franklin Library used to make. The artwork that is found on the original print covers of PoN, or that is found before the Appendix in each book, would make an incredible cover. There are 3 unique pages, TJE and WLW use the same one as TTT (otherwise I'd want to do all of them).
Unfortunately I don't know if there is anywhere that one might acquire such services.
This site: http://www.bessenberg.com/economy-leather-binding.html , seems like it might be able to, but I haven't bothered contacting them. Regardless, even if they could, I imagine the cost would be astronomical. The unique scroll work/calligraphy and all the "Earwa" text would have to be made as individual stamps, and the detail is pretty high. Even if some of the detail is reduced, its still a lot of custom design and work, so I'll probably never be able to afford it.
But, alas, a man can dream.
For the back cover, at least for TDTCB, I'd probably put Akka's map, not sure about the other two.
If anyone knows of a place that could do something like that, I'd pay handsomely for such a service.
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I dream of something similar: to have each of my favorite series in an imposing bound, omnibus format. The pages would have to be quite large for longer series, of course. I was very excited when I heard that this was being produced: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/01/the-complete-malazan-series but, alas, it's e-book only :(
Surely some custom book binders could do this, but, yes, it would be quite expensive. Book binding as a hobby is certainly someone that is done, which would bring the price to a more manageable level, but it's a tough skill to master.
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You know, I never thought of that. Maybe I'll look into it. I've been looking for a hobby :P
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Hey Wilshire, it just occurred to me that there might be universities who can do this or who can connect you to people that can? Perhaps if TSA could get together a bulk order it wouldn't be so expensive???
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Do universities tend to have publishing capabilities? I've never heard of that.
Certainly a bulk order would be cheaper. The issue is that every stamp would need to be custom made and individually designed. This will make the initial one far more expensive, but if even a few copies were ordered at once, that initial cost could be spread out somewhat (potentially). I still imagine it would be rather expensive. I think the book that I had done, which was leather and had somewhat minimal markings, ran me something like $50 or $75. What I have described would cost many times that (for the initial set).
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I mean the Universities have to have contacts in the binding world! So much custom binding for dissertations and rebound old works and such.
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http://leatherboundbindery.com/
http://www.advantagebookbinding.com/additional-services/custom-leather/
http://booksforalltime.com/custom-leather-books.html
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Preliminary results suggest about 600 to 750 per book, about half is for the labor and half for the materials. Additionally there would be the cost of a graphic designer, which would be another 300-500. I'm still reaching out to people to get quotes, but I happen to know a great graphic designer that could probably do it for me for free, or for like 100.
"Books for All Time" told me they wouldn't be able to do it, but then one I posted earlier, Bessenberg Bindery, gave a positive response, and tentatively quoted me the numbers I wrote above.
I'm waiting for a response, but that 600-750 might actually drop 200 on each end due to "one-time" costs. Meaning, best case, the "cost" is about 500 per book, but I'll likely pay a few hundred more than that for some of the one-time things (dies, molds, graphic designer, etc.)
I wouldn't be able to front that kind of money any time soon, but if anyone else is interested, those are the numbers I've seen so far. Obviously, buying multiple copies at once would possibly allow for a discount. If anyone is ever interested, let me know, even if its 5 years from now.
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Officially logging my interest for a purchase in a few years. Get on the pretty book train y'all!
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It does look like the die cost is one-time, so basically you are looking at $400-$600 for parts and labor, maybe more or less if you go with better or cheaper materials (also, still very rough estimate). You can look at what they have on their site for examples. Maybe I'll call the fellow I've been emailing
Apparently I would be the "owner" of the stamp and artwork, so if you'd like to get a book and not pay the 600+ for the artist and stamp you would have to go through me... Not really sure how that would all work, and that isn't what I expected them to tell me :P, but I suppose thats how they do it.
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Oh, also, it appears that the costs above are for their premium service, which is full leather. They offer an economy option for their books with starting prices 1/5th of the full-leather (for materials). I assume the cost of labor also decreases with this option, and the price might drop in half, to like 200-300 per book (again, ignoring the one-time costs).
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I'll start saving then once the series is finished we can use it as a lever to make Bakker meet us as we present him with one ;)
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That is a great idea. Would love to make him one.
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I'll start saving then once the series is finished we can use it as a lever to make Bakker meet us as we present him with one ;)
GOLD!!!
themerchant has found the way
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Well then any money that is made over the cost of the stamp/designer from people ordering will go towards making a nice set for Bakker.
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Maybe I'll just learn the craft myself and bind them on my own. Anyone know anything about how to start in the leather book binding business?
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I would love a set as well. I'm going to speak to some people I know and try and source any information on either the costs or the process.
I'll also chip in to get Bakker a set as well.
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Maybe I'll just learn the craft myself and bind them on my own. Anyone know anything about how to start in the leather book binding business?
I do custom leather bookbinding (hobby, not business). If you like crafts, then it might be worth it to bind them yourself. Keep in mind that getting started in bookbinding is not cheap at all, but would be less expensive than having them bound professionally, depending on how much you consider your time worth.
Unless you want to have a new copy of the text printed up (which seems to me to be somewhat of a potentially sketchy legal situation), the most direct way to go about this is re-casing existing hardcover copies of the books. Re-casing works best with hardcover books, not paperback because hardcover books are more likely to have sewn text blocks. One way around the custom die expense is to use a wood-burning pen and lightly draw the design on the leather yourself. You could do a combination of custom die + hand-burned/written script on the cover. Or you could avoid the die entirely and tool the leather into the design you want.
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A fan of Bakker who dabbles in bookbinding? What an exciting day. Thanks for making an account here, especially if you did it for my sake, and thank you for the suggestion. As you seem to have some knowledge of the subject, do you mind if I ask you some questions? I feel like I have so many, but its somewhat difficult to find answers.
I would not be reprinting the book, just having a hardcover rebound. Having the whole PoN series bound, in the manner that I would like, is looking like well over $1000 (some binderies want that much per book ....), so doing it myself might really be the only option.
So, as far as rebinding is concerned:
How difficult is it to pull off the old cover without damaging the pages? Are there special tools for that process?
I did buy a hardcover book that was bout the same size of the ones I want bound for the purpose of practicing (it was one of the Dune books written by Frank's son, cost me $1), and while I removed the majority of the cover without much difficulty, there seemed to be plenty of leftover glue, cover paper, etc. How clean should the book be before a new cover is attached?
Once the cover is removed sufficiently, will the text need to be resewn, or can a new cover be attached to the original text?
Like I mentioned before, it looks like about half of the total cost, or even more in some cases, is going to be the dye. From those that I spoke with so far, it didn't seem likely that I was going to be able to get around that expense, but it seems that you might have some ideas on the front. I'd like to explore further the different options that might be available, if you would indulge me.
It's unlikely that I would be able to sketch anything. I'm not artistically inclined, can't even draw a straight line properly and my handwriting is all but illegible. Working with tools is fine sure, but anything that is akin to drawing I'm not inclined to try.
How difficult is it to acquire the leather needed for the actual binding?
If you have any other general advice/suggestions, I would be glad to hear them.
Anyway, if you'd like to connect in some way other than this forum, send me a PM or email and we can work something out. PMing, Email, instant message, skype, etc. Whatever might work best for you.
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I don't mind questions at all!
$1000 per book seems high to me, but several hundred dollars per book is very reasonable. If I was commissioned to do a set of books with custom cover art resembling the original hardcover art I would probably charge about $500 per book as well, because I know how expensive supplies can be and how much time something like that would take. I was going to suggest you find and practice on cheap hardcovers from yard sales or something. You don't need to shell out a ton of money for high-quality supplies for practice books, and it will give you a feel for whether or not you want to do the real thing. I say go for it! It's so satisfying to complete a project like that, and then you have the skills to repair books as well.
If the book is hollow-spine (where the text block is not directly glued to the spine of the book. Most hardcovers are like this, as it's not as hard on the spine), you can just use a craft knife to cut through the paper that attaches the text block to the book boards. If it's a decent quality hardcover, you might also be cutting through a fabric that looks kinda like cheesecloth, which is called the crash. That's all you need to do to liberate your text block, though like you noticed, it might not be neat and tidy. That's the bad thing about re-casing a book, but it's still workable. If the text block was sewn, and not just glued together, you shouldn't have to re-sew it. I would advise against it actually, as there isn't really any reason to re-sew a book whose stitching is in fine condition.
I just go to the leather supply store in town (Tandy) for my leather. A full goatskin is about $50-60, and I can get 2-3 books out of it, depending on the size. Goatskin is probably the cheapest book-quality leather to work with, but unless you get pre-split skin (additional expense), you have to thin the leather yourself so it's thin enough turn in the edges and not look lumpy and ugly. This is my least favorite thing to do. It's messy and tedious.
You can order from an actual bookbinding supplier, which is probably your only option for a lot of materials, unless there's a good art supply store (like Dick Blick) where you live. http://talasonline.com (http://talasonline.com) and http://www.hollanders.com (http://www.hollanders.com) are good suppliers. I order from Talas because I do a lot of antique conservation as well and they have bookbinding and archival supplies.
If you aren't comfortable with your artistic abilities, maybe you could find a local artist? If there's a Tandy or equivalent where you live, I would go talk to them and see if they might have ideas or know local leather artisans you could contact about working with. If you live in a college town, check the art department's catalog and see if they have a book arts course. The university here offers a book arts class, which of course, I didn't know about until after I started bookbinding on my own. Figures.
I can post some pictures from a re-casing project I did a few years ago if you'd like. It's not quite step by step, but it does cover the project at many steps.
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JellybeansGalore, that's wonderful! I am imagining Wilshire's face -> ;D
Can you post pics? Would love to see your work.
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Are there any copyright issues with selling bound books? Does the artistic nature of bookbinding make it a derivative product and thus fair use?
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Meyna, I have never had any professional bookbinder raise that as an issue/objection. I have only had 1 actually made, but I feel like at this point I have contacted every bindery in the country that has a website, and not a single one had an issue with it. Might it be technically illegal? Probably. Worth a lawsuit? Unlikely.
JBG, thanks! I would love to see those pictures. Also, might you be able to direct me to some leather-work that looks similar to what you have described as alternatives to the custom ink?
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JellybeansGalore, where did you disappear too? I'd love to see those photos.
Also, someone has suggested to do an "omnibus" version, binding the whole first trilogy into one collection. IMO that seems like it would be a ridiculously big book. Anyone have an example of such a book so I might better judge?
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Many moons ago, the Lord of the Rings trilogy was published as an omnibus hardcover. I had it (still do? maybe in a box. lots of moves) and it was a big book, but not too unwieldy. Maybe 8x10x3? Just a rough guess. It had all three unabridged books, maps, family trees, histories, etc. Mine was bound in a red hardcover with a rigid slipcover, but I found a different omnibus version on ebay. It doesn't specifically give dimensions, though.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1994-The-LORD-of-the-RINGS-TRILOGY-3-Book-Set-Hardcover-Extras-MINT-/281431366609?pt=US_Fiction_Books&hash=item41869ddbd1 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1994-The-LORD-of-the-RINGS-TRILOGY-3-Book-Set-Hardcover-Extras-MINT-/281431366609?pt=US_Fiction_Books&hash=item41869ddbd1)
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That might be a good size comparison. Says 1133+ pages, so when I get home I'll look up the Page counts.
When all 3 are stacked together it looks way to big, but I guess the hardcovers add a decent amount of space to the spine.
Thanks Somna
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Looks like this has just become me cataloging my journey. Well, if anyone can offer help along the way, please do so :P. I'll probably just keep adding to this post unless something worthwhile happens.
PoN is roughly 40,000 words more than LotR, though I am assuming that doesn't include the appendices in either case, and obviously not the maps.
Used this link: http://loopingworld.com/2009/03/06/wordcount/
Confirmed no indices/appendices.
100k works is roughly 250 pages, so about 100 extra pages in PoN compared to LotR.
Omnibus potentially possible though also (still) potentially ridiculous :P.
I have yet to look at the actual page counts as I keep forgetting.
JellyBeansGalore, do you know much more about making cover art? Once I get the initial capital for supplies, I'm going to try to bind one. I don't think it will be too difficult. However, I'm not even sure what supplies I'll need to get started. What tools are required? Assuming I don't have anything, I imagine it may be expensive.
For the book:
Leather, boards, adhesive. Seems too simple. What did I miss?
Tools:
Bone folder, cutting mat... And what else? I'm going to assume I need something to cut the leather with, but are there special knives, etc, for that? What else would I need (for example, to thin the leather)?
Since I'm only rebinding the cover, I'm not too worried about that. Once the book is bound though, that's when the problems begin. How difficult is something as simple as basic lettering, like the title/author, etc. I can probably do that as well, unless you need some kind of machine.
The specialized artwork is something I know I'll never be able to do myself. Can the leather be stamped with the design post-binding? What is that process like?
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Minor update and answer to some of my question:
The design is stamped onto the cover post-binding, to ensure that its centered correctly.
From what I can tell, a common technique for the cover is 'hot stamping', which basically heats up a block of metal and presses a specific kind of foil designed for this process onto the book.
I have the ability to schedule time on a laser etching machine, so I could potentially get the stamp made myself, however it cannot do metals. I need to figure out the specifics, but the most likely candidate for that machine would be some kind of acrylic, but that might not be able to be heated up enough and/or strong enough to hot stamp the cover. If anyone has knowledge in this area, I'd appreciate some know-how.
Otherwise, it appears that magnesium is the cheapest metal that is typically used. I'm endeavoring to get this made myself to hopefully avoid some middle-man fees, so I'm currently trying to find a place that can machine the intricate design.
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Photo-etching has been suggesting as a cheaper alternative to machining/laser-cutting the design. Anyone have experience with that?
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Officially got a quote to get a die made.
$350 on magnesium.
Charges include a $35 fee for someone to manipulate the electronic file. The rest is some combination of labor and material cost, but I could not get it broken down further. They use Photoetching.
Now I have more things to look up.
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I have sent some emails seeking information from various places in my area that might be able to help. I have potentially unique access to some machines at a local university that might put me in a great position to make dies cheaper than most people could hope for.
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Hmm no good. Seems they have nothing for metal and the laser cutter only cuts, it does not etch (fair enough)
I will carry on then. Still looking for alternatives to metals, and looking for a bindery with the know how to use them.
GJ suggested: http://hot-foil-stamping.com/ . Might be useful.
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Found a fairly local place that might be able to get me some magnesium dies cheap. Might be able to them for more like $100 each, which seems reasonable.
I'm looking at leather at the sites JellyBeansGalore linked above. Anything from $10/sqrft (sqrft = square feet, for you people that use real measurements) to $100+. Minimum is around 4-6 square feet depending on the size of the leather, custom orders are not accepted. I might go with the $10 one, hopefully its the correct dark grey color, and its imported italian calf leather, which sounds fancy, but obviously the price speaks for itself.
Anyone have thoughts? Would using a cheaper leather be noticeable? Would it be worth doubling or tripling the cost for nice leather?
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Next road block, finding someone to stamp the books. It appears that I have taken the entire profit margin out of the process for anyone (which was kind of the point), but I can't do the last step on my own. I have a feeling I'm going to get charged a bunch for someone to spend 5 minutes setting up a machine and flipping a switch. I will have to discuss with my binder the process, so I can figure out if its worth just using her machines and getting dies made specifically to fit the press she owns. I also still need to find foil costs.
But hey, I'm getting close to the end here. Leather found, binder found (and/or teacher), dies found. All that remains is to find another option for the press, and the foil cost. Then I can make a book.
After all this, I'm not sure I'll come in much under the lower, more reasonable quotes of $500, but we shall see. If all goes well, I'll let anyone who is actually following know. Maybe post a picture or something. I think maybe 3 people have suggested they might want one, so we'll see what kind of price I could make you(them) one for, though that will involve asking Rankine what he would want to charge for a reproduction fee for using his artwork. Potentially any savings I would hope to pass one may be absorbed into that charge, but maybe it will be reasonable (I doubt it).
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If anyone has a direct link to Bakker, might I ask a favour?
I have tried before, once specifically with the following request, but have never had any successful correspondence utilizing his contact page via his website.
For the spine of the book, I'd love to put "R Scott Bakker" and "The Darkness that Comes Before" in Sheyic or Kuniuric. In case you are curious, Achamian's map is Sheyic, and the cover art is, to my understanding, supposed to be kuniuric. Either would be acceptable since both will be displayed on my book (cover art on front, akka's map on back). However, in order to do that, it would need to exist, and as far as I know, such words do not. This means I'd need to either have the alphabet and cipher, and/or have Rankine or Bakker directly scratch it down on a piece of paper and scan it to me. I know someone who does calligraphy who would likely be able to make it look decent, but I need the words. In addition, I'll eventually need the titles to the rest of PoN, since the final goal is to make each of them
I'll sending in another email via the website sometime soon, and will probably continue to do so periodically, forever, until a response is received. Since the hot-foil stamping is done post-binding, It can be done whenever (assuming the spine stays flat), so its not rush, but help would be welcomed is such help could be given ;).
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SilentRoamer suggested a fading from black to white between the books.
http://www.hollanders.com/index.php/samples-cow-leather.html
Hollanders actually have 4 shades of grey, and pure black or white, so that is actually possible.
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The fading idea is fantastic. Distinguishes individual pieces while still feeling cohesive within each series. I feel like TDTCB should be nearly black, and (whenever it comes out) TUC being white.
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I'd almost consider the opposite, depending on how TUC ends. TDTCB, white for pure and ignorant, TUC, black for disillusionment and chaos.
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No, no, no!
The Darkness must be dark, the AE must be white!
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Only if kellhus is the winner and/or correct. Otherwise, the story is about his descent into darkness, and his corruption of the world, and in turn the world's failure to stop him.
I'd make a yang set for your yin.
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Hehe I like it Wilshire. Of course you would come from the point of view Kellhus is deluded and/or self serving. I on the other hand am not a dirty blasphemer like you and know that his Holy is going to die for Men.
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I am firmly a kellian-agnostic. I simply am suggesting that you may be wrong, but certainly not declaring it so one way or the other.
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What is a suggestion if not an expressed intent? Or at least the idea that the expressed intent could be?
Blasphemer still!
I do however love your idea of using Sheyic and Kuinuric.
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I do however love your idea of using Sheyic and Kuinuric.
I feel like anything else along the spine would ruin the whole thing, but such text does not exist.
As a last resort I might just take a row from each cover and make it the spine, but I'd consider this a failure.
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http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=61327
I was recommended this forum, so I signed up and made a post. If something comes of it, I'll let you know.
It seems Talas is again highly recommended. I will probably take another look at their site and see if I find something that catches my eye.
Much information has been exchanged via PM, so that link might not provide much of use
Ah, some active members. How nice. I might post the PMs later, to archive the information here just in case.
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Harmatan Leather seems to have some very high quality goatskin leather. I think I'm going to have to get the good stuff for this project, or I'll probably just be disappointed with the results....
I am considering buy some cheap and relatively low cost leather or some kind and do a practice run on someone less precious. Maybe Dune or Hyperion or something, so if I mess it up I won't be out much, but if it turns out alright it will still be worth having.
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I was encouraged at home to purchase the leather. I decided I'd not worry too much about the cost of the leather, so I got some very nice dark grey leather. Also decided that since I have 3 HC TDTCB that I am willing to bind, that I'll pick the middle quality one and go with it.
It is officially being processed, and I should have it in about a week.
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An update worth making a new post about I think.
I talked to the binder, found out that there are some issues with TDTCB 2nd printings that makes them perhaps less than ideal to bind, so I will be binding my 1st edition 1st printing. This will probably happen in a month or two.
On that note, if anyone is interested, I've got 3 copies of TDTCB 1st edition 2nd printing laying around that I'd like to sell. Check out this thread (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1528.0) if you are interested. The flaws shown are printing errors, common to pretty much all the Overlook printings... But hey the cover is nice and the books are in great condition otherwise, probably unread.
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You going to change the thread title to "(a reality)" when it finally happens ;)?
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I'll make a new thread :P
Condense the information, post pictures, etc.
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You can write a great Quora-post. Also, holy shit, you should go sign up for Quora (http://www.quora.com/) and ask your questions there. Perhaps, you'll luck out and receive a great Quora-post.
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The binding of TDTCB will being on March 7th 2015.
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Does this count as the first step? Its the first thing I've actually done...
So the binding will take a bit longer than I initially exacted, probably some 10 hours of work, which means I'll probably end up spending about the same amount of money binding it this way than I would have if I just bought the thing. Oh well, part of the fun.
I took my 1st/1st TDTCB to the bindery, cut off the cover, removed end pages, made and lined new boards, removed all the old (and surprise surprise, sub-par quality) adhesive, re-glued the spine using much higher quality PVA (poly-vinyl acetate), and added some black and white headbands to the spine (the bit of cloth usually at the top and bottom of most hardcover books).
This work took about 3.5 hours, and basically required a knife and some 2 different types of glue. The boards and spine were left to dry over night.
Next time I'll be meeting with a fellow refereed to only as "Tex" (he's from Texas...), who is apparently some kind of embossing/foil-stamping wizard, who will help guide down the correct path to take for making the foil dies for the front and back cover.
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Did not meed with the illusive "Tex" person but we did still have a long discussion on what to do about the design.
Unfortunately, the Rankine art is too complex to stamp by hand and have a good chance at success. It could potentially take many, many tries, and with each stamp you lose the leather (which you already bound to the book) and have to start over. What is typically done for something this complex is a very large machine is set up that both embosses and stamps the cover, and its set up once to stamp several thousand books.
So, the alternative is to create a label. Basically I'm going to stamp the design into a seprate pice of leather until it looks right, cut that out, and adhere it to the book in a space I've left for it. I will do this for the cover (rankine's art) and the back (Akka's map). I haven't yet decided what color to do the label leather in, since it won't be exactly the same I figure I'll make it a different color altogether so as to avoid it just looking like a mistake. Potential options from Talas (http://apps.bnt.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=66601)
Anyone have thoughts or suggestions? I was thinking just going with black. Recall that the main binding is going to be done with Charcoal #905 (http://apps.bnt.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=20907).
For the second sessions, which didnt take quite as long. First we built up the spine a bit more (more glue, binding cloth, even more glue, something called a 'hollow tube' which amounted to paper folded over itself various times). I interspersed sanding down the edges of the new boards while waiting for glue to dry (this is going to take a long time. Homework). And finally we cut out the end pages and glued them to a hinge made of some odd cloth-like material (this will make the book open more nicely than it otherwise would.
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Starting to come together.
Boards finished, text block finished, spin finished.
Leather for label ordered (went with black, btw), hot-foil dies ordered.
Next week I will probably prep the leather and depending on how long that takes, put the leather on the book. After that, another day, I will be stamping the labels, cutting them out and putting them on the book. I might be done in a month two.
Or, rather, "done". The final piece will be the spine design, which is as of yet unfinished. I will probably wait as long as it takes for Bakker to acknowledge that he has seen my request for the title translation. Maybe I'll go Shawshank Redemption and write a letter a week... Once I get the final design I will commission one of the binders to hand paint it on (or something, I'm still vague on the details), no idea how much that will cost or how long it will take.
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I love how this is coming along. Please post lots of pictures of the final product!
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No worries, I'll post pictures of the whole process and final product, I've been taking several before/after each step. Will have to make a new topic since its not just a dream ;).
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Leather is on the book, still missing labels. I had to leave it at the binder to dry so I dont have it yet and no pictures, but its almost done now.
The dies came out really well, but its still very intricate and small so it may take some time to get it to come out correctly on the label. Once thats done, we put the label on the book, let it dry, and its done.
Where is a good place to upload the dozen-ish pictures I have o the process? Deviant art or something? Never really done that before. This way I can embed pictures in the new post I make rather than just have them as tiny attachments.
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Where is a good place to upload the dozen-ish pictures I have o the process? Deviant art or something? Never really done that before. This way I can embed pictures in the new post I make rather than just have them as tiny attachments.
I'd use imgur.com, uploading is easy and they give you all the kinds of links you could need.
Can't wait to see how it looks!
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Yeah imgur works pretty well. Could also do Facebook.
I need the pics!
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Thanks for the suggestion, I will do so.
Check out my project here when its finished:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1603.0
Still need to post pictures of the bound book and I have one step left to complete, but that will be where I post it.