The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 12:40:39 am
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So I was wondering if anyone had any theories about Wutteat being alive at the end of WLW even though his neck was broken by Ciogli during the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars.
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Well he wasn't, was he? He's described as undead in the text, with rotting flesh. For some reason he is not allowed to die until the connection with the gods is cut. The dragon is a victim himself.
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Something about the dragon physiology seems to result in a Topos within the dragon itself. I suspect Wutteat, likely the only dragon with a soul, is the only Wracu that could become undead. (I strongly suspect Wutteat's possession of a soul relates to why the Black Heaven cannot command him.)
It's interesting to note that wracu cries are like children screaming from far away, something similar to how Inchies laugh. The wracu are interesting because they don't seem to possess the insatiable lusts of the skin spies and Sranc, likely because they're based on Wutteat's Bios.
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I say that Wutteat is a cybertronic organism.
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The Inchoroi hit Cybertron before the Civil War in this Universe ;).
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Imagine the crossover potential! Second Apocalypse as done by Michael Bay. At least the Gnosis would be pretty to look at. :P
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Imagine the crossover potential! Second Apocalypse as done by Michael Bay.
I've been a good boy, please don't punish me.
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*Cue evil executive laughter*
It's okay. Scott himself has said TV execs flee whenever they hear about the Consult. Which I say is shit. Let HBO tackle it.
Anyway, back on subject. About the Wracu and lust, isn't Wutteat's scales turning red mentioned as a lust (somewhat) during the ASE saga and in Four Revelations of Cinial'jin? Not say it's concrete proof, but there had to be a reason they brought him with them. Maybe Inchoroi made him that way? They do like tweaking and sculpting. Who the hell knows what they originally looked like before the billions upon billions of Grafts.
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Even HBO has it's limits. Besides, don't you feel for the poor casting director who has to explain why the mo-cap guy has to have a blue screen wired to his phallus?
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Perhaps they could convert it to the saturday morning cartoon format, kinda like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDHHrt6l4w) ;)
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I quite honestly believe that the best way to translate this series to screen is through animation. A shame animation is basically dead in the west outside of comedy series and kids stuff.
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That may be a little unfair. While it seems that way, if the animators behind Avatar or Korra got hold of it, it'd be some mad stylized work. Or perhaps HBO doing an animated series once more, Spawn style? Spawn was brutal, dark, utterly adult. Hell, it'd honestly be the only way you may be able to get away with some of the material on the books and have it on screen.
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Even HBO has it's limits. Besides, don't you feel for the poor casting director who has to explain why the mo-cap guy has to have a blue screen wired to his phallus?
"We've captured 1500 dongs and VFX'd 99,000 more for the Sranc charge at Mangedda. Only 30 seconds of screen time, but it's...rather mesmerizing."
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Another big question is why dragons can't wear chorae.
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Maybe if you give a dragon one they bury it in a horde somewhere rather than risk losing it in combat.
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We don't really know how dragons were controlled by the Inchoroi or the No-God, but that process could be a sorcerous one.
If so, by giving a dragon a chorae you wouldn't be able to control it. And that would mean that it most probably would take off to do more rewarding stuff than whatever you wanted it to.
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I've been giving it some thought, because frankly it does seem to be a giant "I win button" to give a chorae to a Wracu. While that hasn't been revealed yet I do have two pet theories.
1) As previously mentioned, if the method of influencing/controlling Wracu is sorcerous then you cannot give them a chorae
2) If any of their abilities are sorcerously derived, then you can't give them chorae without crippling/killing them. I tend to lean this way, given that the Father of All Dragons does appear to have a connection to the Outside and little things like flying and firebreath become much more plausible if you have sorcery fueling them, but there's so little evidence about Wracu and how the Tekne works that this remains just a theory.
and, of course:
3) The real reason is much more disturbing and awesome than 1 or 2.
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If Wutteat was something along the lines of a mini Wight-of-the-Mountain then a chorae would be ineffective.
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If Wutteat was something along the lines of a mini Wight-of-the-Mountain then a chorae would be ineffective.
That's not necessarily true, even if that is correct. Chorae killed Ciphrang (or at least the forms they wore in the World) just fine. Was the Wight immune to chorae? I never saw that definitively stated. And if he is, is that because he's in the World because of the topos allowing the Outside to leak into the World without sorcery? We also don't know how Wutteat's connection to the Outside matches up against that of other dragons. He is the first and he has experiences the others don't. We know chorae interfere with magical artifacts. If the Wracu are essentially biological sorcerous artifacts then having chorae imbedded into their hide isn't going to be healthy for them.
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It is definitively stated that the Chorae should have had no effect on the Wight from Akka's POV. That's why Mimara's banishing it was remarkable.
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It is definitively stated that the Chorae should have had no effect on the Wight from Akka's POV. That's why Mimara's banishing it was remarkable.
Yes and there's the problem with that statement. Akka's certainly a reliable source, but he's not an omniscient one. Even if he's correct (which is likely), it is far from established that Wracu and Wights are identical in that particular respect.
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I think you may be missing the point of why the chorae shouldn't work on the wight. Its because he was still in the outside; he effectively rendered his surroundings as a separate dimension. The ciphrang, OTOH are bound within their bodies. I doubt there is any similarity here between Wracu and the wight, there is no indication that Wracu drag inter-dimensional seals around with them.
I think Wracu work quite differently from other races, weapon or other. They are not perversions like sranc, bashrag and other synthese.
Wutteat is the father of dragons, a title reserved for the inchies amongst the synthese.
I tend to think he made them and the inchies either grafted him a soul or removed them from his 'children'.
Whatever the case, they seem unable to reproduce - whether this is because Wutteat is broken or lost knowledge of the tekne is required, wracu are likely not biologically viable and soul-less.
There simply is no obvious reason why they can't be equipped with chorae apart from the narrative fact that sorcery is the only thing that can counter them and therefore the inchies would have won long since.
So I'll go with some spurious rationalization and choose to believe that dragons have the same 'magnetic' charge as the metal that chorae are made from. (After all, giant flying money hoarding mecha-lizards are just as self-contradictory as chorae, surely?) So chorae just repel away from them.
Easy peazy lemon squeezy.
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Yeah, chorae + dragons is something Bakker is going to have to explain. I trust in him to have an explanation, or at minimum to retcon one in that makes sense. ;-)
I think the key is something to do with the ability to spew molten metal. There's nothing we've seen that can justify this in a biological creature, so it's possible that dragons "apprehend the onta" in a different way from sorcerers.
Something inside them allows for this, and I think it has to relate to some break in reality. Which is why the chorae interfere with their ability, but since the actual lava spew is non-magical chorae don't protect you from the blast.
In WLW, I have to check but is Wutteat breathing actual fire?
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Even if he's correct (which is likely), it is far from established that Wracu and Wights are identical in that particular respect.
Not in general, no. But Wutteat specifically. I got the impression he was a 'living' topos, much like the Wight of the Mountain.
Also in regards to fire breathing and biological implausibility: Just because Wutteat was probably the wild-type Wracu from which the Inchoroi derived the weaponized version doesn't mean they didn't go back and mess with his biology too.
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I think you may be missing the point of why the chorae shouldn't work on the wight. Its because he was still in the outside; he effectively rendered his surroundings as a separate dimension. The ciphrang, OTOH are bound within their bodies. I doubt there is any similarity here between Wracu and the wight, there is no indication that Wracu drag inter-dimensional seals around with them.
You mistake me. I fully understand that. I am simply unwilling to say that chorae, which function based on negation of an ability directly tied to a connection to the Outside, have no effect on things of the Outside based on how little knowledge of the Outside we possess. Scott's hording secrets and I am unwilling to state certainties when I know myself to be on unsafe ground.
I'm not at all convinced Wracu are soulless. Seswetha actually talks with Skraffa, which he wouldn't do with Sranc. Now they could be merely as intelligent as Skin Spies, but in the Judging Eye it indicates that dragons "know", not being merely slaves to violent instinct. A few hundred dragons with souls aren't going to screw up the Inchoroi's genocidal math so it isn't necessary for them to be soulless.
Nor do they need to be sorcerers to be sorcerous. We've seen animate Wrathi dolls, magical armour, and magic weapons as well as young priest use the Gnosis to physically augment himself. If anyone is going to produce a race of magically enhanced reptilian death machines, it is the Inchoroi with their access to the Gnosis and the Tekne.
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I don't actually have much of an opinion on the Wracu. However, a couple thoughts that have occurred to me - none of can I really commit to.
- Wracu have never struck me as soulless.
- I believe, their fire is described as sorcerous. Certainly, Skafra's fire breaks across Seswatha's (Nautzera's dream) wards as if it is sorcerous in TWP.
- Wutteat might be another species from which the Inchoroi derived the Wracu.
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I wonder what sorcery the Inchies use? Because when Aurang comes for Esmi he says:
"Walking between Wards is easy," a voice hummed, "when their author practises other arcana."
I'm assuming she was protected by the Gnosis, so I'm assuming Aurang uses the Aporos.
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I wonder what sorcery the Inchies use? Because when Aurang comes for Esmi he says:
"Walking between Wards is easy," a voice hummed, "when their author practises other arcana."
I'm assuming she was protected by the Gnosis, so I'm assuming Aurang uses the Aporos.
That's not what I got from that. Rather I got that the "author" referred to the "author of the wards" and Aurang simply meant that subverting wards is easier when their creator is distracted with other sorcery.
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- I believe, their fire is described as sorcerous. Certainly, Skafra's fire breaks across Seswatha's (Nautzera's dream) wards as if it is sorcerous in TWP.
So do conventional arrows. Wards aren't purely anti-sorcery.
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My point as to why the wight could not be affected by chorae comes from the fact that he has no sorcerous connection to Earwa, his seal is a gate to the outside - a hole in objective reality rather than a conjured manifestion of the outside injected into the onta. The aporos negates sorcery, undoes the mark and what remains is unbound from its original form (e.g. sorcerers become salt).
It seems Mimara instead managed to open her own conduit to the outside via the chorae's mechanism and thereby close the wight's gate/seal.
I don't see any way to relate this to dragons.
My assumption of Wracu as souless comes from the fact that the no-god could dominate them as he did with the other weapon races. The inchies created them (according to TTT glossary) and were able to control them before the no-god, but the consult don't seem to be able to do so.
Wutteat's status as father of dragons implies they are created from him, but they are more like clones and allies than the other weapon races (which are twisted and bred with inchie limbic control mechanisms installed).
Maybe they do have souls, but they don't seem concerned about damnation and they don't weild sorcery (as we know it). As products of the tekne I think it unlikely.
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I wonder what sorcery the Inchies use? Because when Aurang comes for Esmi he says:
"Walking between Wards is easy," a voice hummed, "when their author practises other arcana."
I'm assuming she was protected by the Gnosis, so I'm assuming Aurang uses the Aporos.
I thinks CC's comments are correct with respect to this snippet. As far as we know the Mangaecca (which founded the Consult) was and is a Gnostic school.
Are there aporetic sorcerors in the Consult? Probably, if 1000's of years of decay has preserved a few of those Nonmen sorcerors that practised the Aporos. We've yet to hear of any human aporetic sorcerors; maybe Mimara will be one.
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My point as to why the wight could not be affected by chorae comes from the fact that he has no sorcerous connection to Earwa, his seal is a gate to the outside - a hole in objective reality rather than a conjured manifestion of the outside injected into the onta. The aporos negates sorcery, undoes the mark and what remains is unbound from its original form (e.g. sorcerers become salt).
It seems Mimara instead managed to open her own conduit to the outside via the chorae's mechanism and thereby close the wight's gate/seal.
I don't see any way to relate this to dragons.
And I agree, if what we know about the Outside and chorae is correct. I expect revelations on this subject by Bakker that will invalidate at least one of my assumptions. Chorae interfering with Wracu is more likely to be if they are invested with magic as are Mimara's mail, the magic knife, Wrathi Dolls, and so forth. This would explain the fire spitting and the flying despite their huge mass and size and so forth, but we know so little about Wracu, the Tekne, and how investing sorcery in an object works.
My assumption of Wracu as souless comes from the fact that the no-god could dominate them as he did with the other weapon races.
This is not true. We saw no dragons shriek the No-God's questions. Skafra retained his personality and engaged in conversation where he justified his submission to Mog-Pharu. The No-God may control the Wracu, but their relationship to it isn't the same as that of the Sranc or the Bashrag. The Wracu may be soulless, but if they are closer to Skin Spies in intelligence and self control.
The inchies created them (according to TTT glossary) and were able to control them before the no-god, but the consult don't seem to be able to do so.
Wutteat's status as father of dragons implies they are created from him, but they are more like clones and allies than the other weapon races (which are twisted and bred with inchie limbic control mechanisms installed).
Maybe they do have souls, but they don't seem concerned about damnation and they don't weild sorcery (as we know it). As products of the tekne I think it unlikely.
Wutteat was concerned about damnation and the conversation regarding dragon bones indicates that they don't possess the same reactions as Sranc or Bashrag, which makes sense. The other races are cannon fodder, created to fight and die in vast numbers. Wracu are capable of personally challenging a sorcerer in single combat and are as precious as the Few. A weapon of such power and rarity is best wielded with intelligence so as to maximize it's effect and minimize foolish losses. There are also substantial biological differences between Wracu and and the mammalian bipeds that make up the rest of the Weapon Races. That's going to mean that the same techniques won't work and the Inchoroi's skill at the Tekne has limits.
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Wracu are also among the oldest of the Tekne's creations, which because of the Inchoroi's Regression of Memory, the Tekne creations with the longest pedigree would be most their advanced. That is, of course, until new innovations on the Tekne.
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Somewhat related:
If Wutteat is the father of dragons, presumably not created by the Inchoroi , who is he referring to when he says:
"Such things that I remember, Cunuroi! Twisting in the void for sailing ages! Watching my makers descend as locusts upon world after world, reducing each to one hundred and forty-four thousand -- and wailing to find themselves still damned!" -WLW 558
Sounds to me from that passage that the is referring to the inchoroi as his "makers", unless of course its some other race of beings destroying worlds in such a manner.
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Good points, Cat.
And that quote is interesting to me, thanks Wilshire.
The wracu certainly do differ from the other weapon races, addistionally they seem to lack the built in 'carnal' control mechanisms the inchies employed in sranc and skin spies (and probably bashrag but II don't really even want to think about that, hehe) .
The fact remains they are not allied with the consult in their pursuit of escaping damnation, which is interesting if they do possess souls.
CC, you mention their different physiology. I think that is very important and a good point to consider regarding their abilities and immunity to chorae. Being a weapon race of extraterrestial origin in Bakkerverse allows them the potential for non-sorcery and non-tekne related powers if we assume that they came from somewhere other than inchie-world.
The ablity to fly and spew lava simply can't be sorcerous, given that the inchies did not encounter sorcery before they met the non-men. And the fact that the inchies did not graft these abilities onto themselves (instead using the Wracu as mounts) suggests a level of incompatability with the Tekne.
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The Wracu physiology and imperviousness to sorcery is very similar to Golgotterath itself... Which was hinted at being one giant womb/space-faring living being...
Perhaps there is a connection between the physical characteristics of the Wracu and the Ark of the Inchoroi...
I WAS THE FIRST TO STEP FROM OUR HALLOWED ARK
Note that Wutteat uses the self possessive, "our," ark... Not the other's possessive, "their," ark...
And also:
MURDER! MURDER IS OUR SALVATION!
Again with the, "our," salvation... Implying that his goal, too, is avoiding damnation, and that he had/has a soul, or something like it.
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The wracu certainly do differ from the other weapon races, addistionally they seem to lack the built in 'carnal' control mechanisms the inchies employed in sranc and skin spies (and probably bashrag but II don't really even want to think about that, hehe) .
Flashbacks show the Bashrag clearly enjoying Seswetha's pain.
The fact remains they are not allied with the consult in their pursuit of escaping damnation, which is interesting if they do possess souls.
They seem to be very independent minded. Submitting even to the No-God is questionable. Remember there is a long time, potentially many generations, between the defeat of the Inchoroi and the rise of the Consult. It's possible most of the dragons of the Consult's time have no direct memory of Inchoroi.
CC, you mention their different physiology. I think that is very important and a good point to consider regarding their abilities and immunity to chorae. Being a weapon race of extraterrestial origin in Bakkerverse allows them the potential for non-sorcery and non-tekne related powers if we assume that they came from somewhere other than inchie-world.
The ablity to fly and spew lava simply can't be sorcerous, given that the inchies did not encounter sorcery before they met the non-men. And the fact that the inchies did not graft these abilities onto themselves (instead using the Wracu as mounts) suggests a level of incompatability with the Tekne.
Perhaps, perhaps not. There's so little known about the Inchoroi arts that ruling out their ability to interact with the Outside is not something I believe is supportable. Despite not knowing sorcery, somehow the Inchoroi know they are damned and what they have to do to seal off the Outside. That's without touching the No-God, which somehow can command all the Weapon Races and prevent new souls from being born.
As for grafting those abilities onto themselves, there appears to be substantial biological differences between the Inchoroi and the Wracu as well as size differences. Breathing fire might simply not be compatible with their physiology (or that useful at their size and given the costs/tradeoffs), although they did manage to graft wings. Didn't grafting the ability to perceive the Onta kill/drive mad most of the Inchoroi who received the graft?
Lastly, there's the puzzling issue of the survival of Atrithau. The city is apparently located on unarcane ground where sorcery does not work and this is credited with allowing it to survive the Apocalypse. This only makes sense if unarcane ground is also inhospitable to dragons, because trying to hold off a flight of dragons without sorcery is not something I would want to try.
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My take on this is.
Wracu are biological machines, as are the Skin Spies. And Sranc, come to that.
Soulless creatures, and the reason the Gods can’t see through them.
Wutteat however was a real dragon taken from another world.
His genome was used to manufacture the rest of the dragons.
Cleric refers to “The Horde” contained within Wutteat before the fight at Sauglish.
That for me, can only mean a collection of souls, i assume he’s a repository for the dead inchys awaiting the end of the world. And there last resort to avoid damnation.
How this was done i don’t know, an internal Topoi some say?.
But that does not work for me.
The Topoi of the wraith in the mountain made more sense, that was an area of the world that had suffered so much torment, and transition from this world to the next, that it weakened the boundaries between worlds. Allowing the wraith to manifest in the physical world.
I would have thought that was exactly what was not wanted for a safe depository of inchy souls.
They want to be as far from any passage to the outside as possible.
They can’t let Wutteat die until they have victory, how they’re keeping him alive is a mystery.
I don’t think he’s immortal though.
For him to retreat from the fight as sauglish, would suggest he can be destroyed.
Going off on a slight tangent here.
i think the No-God is pretty much as i have described Wutteat.
A repository for the holding of souls. A self contained outside?
But the gods could not see the No-God, just as they can not see there mechanical minions.
Thats odd, if you think there a collection of souls.
Unless the “WHAT DO YOU SEE” is the gods we are hearing?.
Maybe there blinded by that chorae encased sarcophagus?
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Sounds to me from that passage that the is referring to the inchoroi as his "makers", unless of course its some other race of beings destroying worlds in such a manner.
He could have been speaking somewhat figuratively. Perhaps referring to them as his makers due to whatever enhancements may have been grafted upon him after they found him? I imagine the older, pre-Earwa Inchoroi would be up for some tweaking; and have the know how and resources too.
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Sounds to me from that passage that the is referring to the inchoroi as his "makers", unless of course its some other race of beings destroying worlds in such a manner.
He could have been speaking somewhat figuratively. Perhaps referring to them as his makers due to whatever enhancements may have been grafted upon him after they found him? I imagine the older, pre-Earwa Inchoroi would be up for some tweaking; and have the know how and resources too.
I guess that is entirely possible but I suppose there isn't a whole lot of textual support either way. More to think on I suppose.
Also:
Lastly, there's the puzzling issue of the survival of Atrithau. The city is apparently located on unarcane ground where sorcery does not work and this is credited with allowing it to survive the Apocalypse. This only makes sense if unarcane ground is also inhospitable to dragons, because trying to hold off a flight of dragons without sorcery is not something I would want to try.
Sorry but this is the first I have heard of this. Could you tell me where unarcane ground is discussed? Sounds rather interesting, and I have wondered how Atrithau has/had survived.
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TTT Glossary:
Atrithau - ... Atrithau is peculiar in that it is built upon what is called "anarcane ground," which is to say, ground that renders sorcery impotent, found at the foot of Mount Ankulakai.
I believe there is also a mention in the books of some kind of meeting between Gods and Men happening at Mount Ankulakai after the Breaking of the Gates.
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Ah my mistake i mistook it for Mount Kinsureah
I'll have to look in the books and see.
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You'd think someone would have shot a dragon with a chorae arrow at some point. Whatever sorcerous effect would have been disrupted by that.
Maybe they are just too massive to be protected by them?
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You'd think someone would have shot a dragon with a chorae arrow at some point. Whatever sorcerous effect would have been disrupted by that.
Maybe they are just too massive to be protected by them?
Or that might be the only practicle way to kill them without a siege engine or sorcery. Their armour is pretty tough so shooting them with a chorae arrow, if a chorae is merely disruptive instead of instantly fatal, could very well be a waste.
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I was under the impression that Wutteat lost his eyes as part of the general decay which had rotted away a large part of his body already. I think it is stated that Wutteat is so old that he should be dead, but the power which drives his body is too powerful to stop animating him even after he is "dead". Have to go re-read that part now...
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Wicked avatar, Centurion.
"'He dies from the outside,' Cleric said, 'because Hell sustains him from within.'
'CUNNING...' the Wracu groaned from the black. 'CUNNING-CUNNING ISHROI!'
'I have seen this before,' Nil'giccas said, peering after the thing. He turned to the old Wizard and smiled. 'I remember'" (WLW, p864).
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'I have seen this before,' Nil'giccas said, peering after the thing. He turned to the old Wizard and smiled. 'I remember'" (WLW, p864).
What exactly was it that he as seen before.. What does he remember!
Reminds me of the circle of bodies in Golgotterath.
What about the IF? Hell sustains from within...
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what is Pandora's Box but a bottle full of hell?
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Not just reminiscing about wracu hunting with Seswatha?
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Yeah, I'd figure that they've fought Wutteat before. Is Wutteat a piece of Hell, drawn from the Outside?
I thought we'd kind of concluded that he was either a robot or from Cybertron.
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Yeah, I'd figure that they've fought Wutteat before. Is Wutteat a piece of Hell, drawn from the Outside?
I thought we'd kind of concluded that he was either a robot or from Cybertron.
I believe the descriptions are purposefully misleading, but that because I want my dragon to be a dragon I'd guess.
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Nah the descriptions are extremely clear, he's mechanical, but the viewpoints have no conception of machines of that class. They think of machines as wooden contraptions like trebuchets, not a flying weaponized artifact.
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The discriptions are clearly (extremely) metaphorical [why do you use such words when you know they are just used to control?]. The dragon is described in terms of bronze and iron (in the coffers and in the mansion, and in the dreams). The people of Earwa have these kinds of materials and are probably the only kinds of materials that can represent how the dragon looks in their own words. Dragons, in most fantasy, tend to have shiny scales that could easily look like worked metal (bronze or copper if you want it shiny). Not to mention its huge so using more mundane terms, like flesh, probably just doesn't do the trick.
Really though, stating that it is obvious doesn't help you out much (or make it true), just makes you seem unwilling to believe anothers interpretation, and makes you look close minded.
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They do mention that dragons never stop growing. In that case, can Wutteat be mechanical?
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Wutteat is not a stand-in for Wracu. He is the template - whatever Wutteat is, the Wracu are but biological impressions, like the Sranc are of the Nonmen.
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Is that made clear in the Sauglish chapter in WLW, or is that speculation because of the description of the "iron bones", etc.?
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R. Scott Bakker interview (part 2)[/b] (http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.ca/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html):
Wutteat is the prototype, the genotypical template the Inchoroi used to spawn the Wracu. In a sense, he is no more ‘another dragon’ than the original 1889 prototype for the metre in Sevres, France is another metre.
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Here's the relevant bit from WLW:
The shadows cast by intervening columns were absolute, so only fragments of the beast could be seen. Horned ridges. Wings folded into scarred curtains. Scales like overlapping shields, pale with filth and bronze. A single nostril weeping smoke.
The beast was old, Achamian realized. Exceedingly old. Wracu never stopped growing, so it stood to reason that any dragon he encountered in his waking life would dwarf the ancient monstrosities from his Dreams …
But this.
Wings that could have tarped the Shilla Amphitheatre in faraway Aöknyssus. A torso broad enough to hull the largest Cironji carrack, yet long enough to coil about the small mountain of treasure and ruin. Were it to rear onto its hind legs, the beast would stand as tall as any of the Mop’s unnatural trees.
followed by a nice moment of humor:
“This …” Cleric murmured, his gaze fixed on the slumbering beast. “This is where I am meant to die.”
“You and my loincloth,” Achamian replied.
The Nonman turned to him, his face blank and wondering. A vagrant pain seemed to seize his expression. Then Nil’giccas, King of the Last Mansion, laughed. The sound boomed through the hollows, a cackle that rolled like thunder, deep and earthen and utterly— insanely— unafraid. Achamian grimaced more than smiled. “Ah … Seswatha,” Cleric said, swallowing his mirth. “How I cherish your wi—”
I love that Cleric addresses him as Seswatha, looks right through him.
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+1 Willem. I'd call that us projecting onto some ambiguous text in the other descriptions... however, certainly we can hazard from the text and interview that Wutteat is not a product of the Tekne, while other Wracu are?
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we can hazard from the text and interview that Wutteat is not a product of the Tekne, while other Wracu are?
Pretty sure in WLW Wutteat himself says that the Inchoroi found him floating in the void. So unless there was some kind of wormhole timetravel nonsense, I'd say its a good assumption that the Father of all Dragons is not the Inchoroi's creation.
What if the Wracu were/are mechanical and made of metal, while Wutteat actually is not, but past experiences make Akka think in terms of what he saw in Seswatha's past? Or vice-versa (though a bit harder to justify), Father is metal, Wracu are flesh. Those situations would certainly lead to some confusion.
Every time dragons are described (I should find those and quote it directly) they always use similar words. Even though Wutteat is the template, the same descriptions come around. Iron, bronze, portcullis, etc.
I'll look for it later today. A dream near the beginning WP (beginning of a chapter as well), and in the depths of Cil they see a dragon skeleton. Any other places that anyone can remember?
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Four Revelations.
Don't think there's anything that Wutteat says that suggest he was Voidborn like the Ark might be.
I think you're getting caught on a couple things, Wilshire.
Transformers suggests that a being can be somehow biomechanical? The products of the Tekne are biological, we've yet to see anything that indicates that Technology extents to tech as we recognize it, excepting the las-guns of Cuno-Inchoroi wars - (heron spear).
I definitely think that those are the only ways a fantasy character can digest seeing a dragon. Use terms they know to describe how crazy hard and big this thing is.
Its pretty clear from Bakker's quote above that Wutteat is not like all Dragons but all Wracu are like Wutteat, right?
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I just figured the description was a nice turn of poetizing by RSB, kind of like how Smaug is described in the Hobbit:
Now I am old and strong. My armor is like tenfold shields, my teeth are like swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death! I am armored above and below with iron scales and hard gems. No blade can pierce me.
Of course, the word "like" is pretty important in parsing the self-description.
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I'll just point out that there's no conflict between being made partly of metal and being a biological lifeform. Our own bones are about three-quarters calcium phosphate (calcium is a metal); our blood obviously contains a lot of iron as haem, etc. There's no reason, in principle, why a completely biological organism couldn't evolve to have metal scales or whatever.
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WP, english small edition softcover, pg 3:
Describing the fire:
"Cries of dismay and horror rifled the air, then a cataract of boiling gold engulfed Nautzera and the High King's attendants" ... "bodies tumbled like coals from a kicked fire"
Description of Skafra (Wracu):
"Great stamping limbs and gnashing of iron teeth. A cry from furnace lungs, as deeep as an ocean's moan and as piercing as an infant's shriek."
JE, english hardcover first edition, pg396:
"There, a cage of a different kind, large enough to shell a seafaring galley. Great ribs rise from the stone like a portcullis grill, curve up to meet their counterparts in a kiss of bowed spears."
"She sees a jawed carapace yards away, as though carried on a different current, submerged and tilted, yet standing as tall as a man, an empty eye socket just clearing the petrified stone"
WLW, english hardcover first edition various pages:
"FOOL. I AM THE FIRST. MY HIDE IS BRONZE. MY BONES ARE IRON!" pg556
(question: pg 557 Cleric calls Wutteat "Wracu'jaroi"... any ideas?)
Also relevant "I EXCEED MY MAKERS." the scale-shining beast thundered. "NOT EVEN THE BLACK HEAVEN COMMANDS ME!"
it would seem that he was indeed made my something, but I'd hazard that he is not refering to the Inchoroi.
I'd suggest moving several of these posts to the Wracu threads elsewhere, since we are rather off topic.
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One of the very first lines of the whole story refers to Ishual and says something like "no furnace-hearted dragon had torn down its walls..."
I don't have the quote in front of me, but it's something like that with "furnace" included.
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One of the very first lines of the whole story refers to Ishual and says something like "no furnace-hearted dragon had torn down its walls..."
I don't have the quote in front of me, but it's something like that with "furnace" included.
you where damn close.
TDTCB usa paperback page 1:
"No furnace-hearted dragon had pulled down its mighty gates."
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foreshadowing about the furnace hearted dragon that pulled down its mighty gates after Kellhus left?
I have to admit I was wrong about them being all mechanical, thanks for the quotes of the descriptions.
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foreshadowing about the furnace hearted dragon that pulled down its mighty gates after Kellhus left?
Setting up the foreshadowing from sentence 3 of the first book to chapter 1 of book 6 would be impressive. I like that possibility. It was something I don't think I thought of until this thread, and I think its entirely likely.
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Holy shit, it's Grimlock?
I was under the impression that Wutteat lost his eyes as part of the general decay which had rotted away a large part of his body already. I think it is stated that Wutteat is so old that he should be dead, but the power which drives his body is too powerful to stop animating him even after he is "dead". Have to go re-read that part now...
Can't remember if he still has a soul or if it just forces animation even as it's dead. If it has no soul, it's another philosophical proposition of being driven without one, the processes thereby.
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He is sustained by the Hell that burns within him or something like that.
Perhaps he consumed 144k souls?
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He is sustained by the Hell that burns within him or something like that.
Perhaps he consumed 144k souls?
Doesn't seem like nearly enough, but I suppose if you only count the ones he ate and not the ones he burned or curshed, it could be possible.
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Ah here 'tis.
"He dies from the outside," Cleric said, "because Hell sustains him from within."
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Also on p5 of this thread ;).
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Pfft. I am legion. And my thread memory extends 5 posts max.
(Unless it was a traumatic thread ofc)
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Lmao :).
I remember...
I remember posting...
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Clones of Wutteat?
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Lmao :).
I remember...
I remember posting...
Thank you so much, I choked on my smoke.
I found the dragon/akka/nonman king fight scene a revelation the first time I read it. Right there wutteat says, " yeah we fly thru the galaxy killing planets for our souls redemption. " that's right, Bakker just threw some scifi up in this biotch!
I also love how akka tries to make a deal instead of fighting, but the father of dragons just leads him on. I thought to myself, he's an immortal of mighty power, and he's a total Dick too.
Another thing about the dragon I did not see mentioned. During the fight akka its surprised when the dragon aims directly at him, thinking the dragon blind, then wutteat says he's been blind for 10,000 years. So...another revelation.
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Lol, no worries, SATXZ - I realize you've been lurking but welcome to the fray ;).
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Another thing about the dragon I did not see mentioned. During the fight akka its surprised when the dragon aims directly at him, thinking the dragon blind, then wutteat says he's been blind for 10,000 years. So...another revelation.
Makes me wonder if extra-visual perceptions are a universal result of blindness...
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What's that? Optimus Prime is riding Wutteat, Father of Dragons? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgW-BpTkIrg)
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What's that? Optimus Prime is riding Wutteat, Father of Dragons? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgW-BpTkIrg)
I wonder if you put subtitles on they ARE IN THE APPROPRIATE FORMAT.
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The Mighty All-Caps Dragon would accept nothing less.
ETA: I don't know that I'll even see TF4 -- though I somehow wind up watching every one of them (the only one I thought was even remotely passable was the first, and I genuinely consider the second flick to be one of the worst movies I've ever seen) -- but I must admit to being morbidly curious to see what absurd explanation they come up with for fucking DINOSAUR TRANSFORMERS. I just...it makes absolutely no sense given the (admittedly awful) universe they've established so far in the movies. I can't even think of a way to do it that isn't ridiculously stupid.
But alas, in the end, a giant robot with a sword riding a giant robot tyrannosaurus rex is just inherently bad-ass, so I suppose that's why I keep seeing these damn things).
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You must have been to old ;). Its gen 1 transformers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformers:_Beast_Wars
Granted, its not like they are trying to follow canon super closely or anything, and I'm also not really a big enough 'fan' to care either way. Its giant robot fights and slow-mo female underwear models running from them, its not like the plot is a main selling point.
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Lol.
What's that? Optimus Prime is riding Wutteat, Father of Dragons? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgW-BpTkIrg)
I wonder if you put subtitles on they ARE IN THE APPROPRIATE FORMAT.
The Mighty All-Caps Dragon would accept nothing less.
Lol - indeed.
ETA: I don't know that I'll even see TF4 -- though I somehow wind up watching every one of them (the only one I thought was even remotely passable was the first, and I genuinely consider the second flick to be one of the worst movies I've ever seen) -- but I must admit to being morbidly curious to see what absurd explanation they come up with for fucking DINOSAUR TRANSFORMERS. I just...it makes absolutely no sense given the (admittedly awful) universe they've established so far in the movies. I can't even think of a way to do it that isn't ridiculously stupid.
But alas, in the end, a giant robot with a sword riding a giant robot tyrannosaurus rex is just inherently bad-ass, so I suppose that's why I keep seeing these damn things).
What are you going to do, FB? Not subject your eyeballs to that?
You must have been to old ;). Its gen 1 transformers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformers:_Beast_Wars
Granted, its not like they are trying to follow canon super closely or anything, and I'm also not really a big enough 'fan' to care either way. Its giant robot fights and slow-mo female underwear models running from them, its not like the plot is a main selling point.
Beast Wars was great. Until it got ridiculous.
+1 the commentary. And people don't think that it is concerted manipulation for your attention? To be honest, in some of the readings I've done it seems that movie executives really are or are portrayed as not even giving a thought to attracting girl viewers, if there isn't a guy with them in the theater.
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+1 the commentary. And people don't think that it is concerted manipulation for your attention? To be honest, in some of the readings I've done it seems that movie executives really are or are portrayed as not even giving a thought to attracting girl viewers, if there isn't a guy with them in the theater.
Probably just an old hold-over from the past. Sooner or later everyone realizes that there is more profit to be made. I hear almost half of all 'gamers' are female, and even still developers are slow to appeal to the other side.
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Probably just an old hold-over from the past. Sooner or later everyone realizes that there is more profit to be made. I hear almost half of all 'gamers' are female, and even still developers are slow to appeal to the other side.
+1. Good grief.
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That conversation between Akka and Wutteat--my first reaction was to assume everything Wutteat said was a lie, a consult set up, Wutteat is still bound to NG, just says he isn't because…I don't know, it will make Akka think it's not a set up. There was all that ominous foreshadowing about the map's seal, something like "doom if you find me broken" and then Akka finds it broken in the rubble.
Was the container broken and none where the wiser? Did Wutteat know and tell the consult? Did Wutteat know and not tell the Consult? Did the Dunyain break it ages ago and it's part of their long con? If the map is a Dunyain plant, does that mean the whole of Ishual is a Dunyain front--as several others have said, they are really in Ishterbinth, Athrithau, the Ark, elsewhere entirely?
If the dragon is telling the truth, then the impression I had was that something exceptional had happened just to Wutteat between the first apocalypse and the conversation with Akka. I have no idea what it would be.
The whole thing about chorae and dragons, I don't know, would there be a physical space limit for a single chorae? A dragon would need a lot of them to be fully protected, this might put a strain on the chorae reserve? No that doesn't sound likely, you would want those things protected if you could.
That Wutteat runs on sorcery seems odd to me since he seems to predate the Inchoroi's discovery of sorcery. BUT maybe something special has happened to him.
Lovely fine and thin crackpot theory: Wutteat is a skinspy to the original inhabitents of some other planet.
And what's up with the Inchoroi's physical forms? Two hands, two legs, single penis, head up top on a neck, torso. Is all that human-like body stuff just playing to a convention or are the Inchoroi former nonmen come home, former humans, or what Earthlings will become?
How many Inchoroi does it take to screw in a light bulb?
1,000,002. A billion to rape and murder countless worlds and 2 to summon the No-God extinguishing the need for light for eternity.
Will Wutteat's blindness give him any cool powers like the Cishaurim?
I like what Borric said about the NG, makes me think the saccophagus is perhaps a chorae cage more than anything else. What would happen if you put a sorcerer in extreme and extremely anguishing proximity to chorae, but never so close that he/she died? They could salt at a level that could be perpetuated indefinitely and the clash between the sorcery and chorae might do something neat?
Oooohhhh, what if the Consult discovered the psukhe ages ago? That would explain why skinspies can see seswatha within…but they don't have souls…wait, how do we know they don't? Is the evidence reliable? Psukhe charged, ensouled skinpies wandering around thwarting everyone with layers of deception! The skinspy-mandate guy was only skinspy with a *damned* soul. Lordy, they got that poor dude to damn himself for their purposes! I suppose the Mandate do the same. Damn, whoever thought up the psukhe first is going to win because it might be the invisible hand operative all along.
This is all so random, hardly any of this goes here. I will stop rambling now.
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The Father of Dragons - Wutteat:
Wutteat was the Wracu Template, like the Nonmen are to Sranc. Wutteat is a Wracu as much as Nil'Giccas is a sranc (so not really at all). He seems like a trustworthy fellow, I trust what he has to say, or at least that he believes what he says.
I haven't read the section in some time, but there was obviously some kind of metaphysical connection between Wutteat and the Outside. I'm not sure what to call it, but I wouldn't classify it as "sorcery".
It seemed to me that the Consult had only a tentative hold on Wutteat, more like his goals and theirs seemed to coincide. More of a mutually beneficial arrangement than captor/captive, like the Nonmen and the Inchoroi before the Womb Plague.
Not sure what you mean by chorae/dragon thing.
Inchoroi's physical form:
Seems rather convenient that they are 'humanoid' to some degree. I agree that it could either be convention or have some kind of sci-fi element tie in. I think we'll see more of this kind of thing as the series continues.
Ishual's Map:
I seriously doubt that the map simply broke open during the fight. Its just too lame of an explanation. Somethings definitely up, but I don't know what or how long ago it was placed.
Light bulbs:
1,000,002 is one million and two ;)
Blindness:
Seems to always be tied to special properties. Not everyone that is blind is a Cishaurim but most that are blind seem to be important.
Psuke:
The Inchoroi seem to only have a tentative grasp of magic. They seemed to want to destroy the Cisharum as much as the SS or the Inrithi. Remember that they had skin-spies advising nearly every major power to join the war. Skeaos and Cepherumuni at least were discovered, two of the most powerful 2nd in command men in the Three-Seas.
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Going so far overboard I missed by 900,000!
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Going so far overboard I missed by 900,000!
Over 9000!
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If I'm going to get this right, I'm going to need a lot more fingers.
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3 random wracu thoughts:
1) Would be awesome to see a Kellhus/Dragon conversation/battle. Would be neat also if there is an atrocity tale set 10 years before the fall of Sakarpus where Kellhus is off plundering a derelict nonman mansion and meets an old dragon.
2) IF Moe is able to 'rewrite' skin spies, think of what the dunyain could do with a dragon! Is that one of the things down in the 1000 1000 halls? A dragon, reconditioned over centuries?
3) Thinking about synthese--I hope Kellhus has figured out how the Consult do this and one ups them. A goddamn wracu body with the head of the aspect emperor! ... or it just looks like a dragon but it is kellhus' 'synthese'
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1) +1.
2) ... Cool, but probably not.
3) Tekne: Anything the Consult can do, Dunyain can do better.
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In a scene near the beginning of TWP we get a continuation of the Celmomian prophecy Dream. I believe there are 3 dragons that fly in right after the King dies, and only 1 is killed. The others run off wounded. There should be a few Wracu in TUC as they were not all destroyed.
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In a scene near the beginning of TWP we get a continuation of the Celmomian prophecy Dream. I believe there are 3 dragons that fly in right after the King dies, and only 1 is killed. The others run off wounded. There should be a few Wracu in TUC as they were not all destroyed.
Plus new dragons! Dragon/Bashrag combos: each tail, three fused tails, vestigial faces all over it.
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Let's say Kellhus comes across a massive dragon corpse and reanimates it with ciphrang. Voila! The undead Wutteat!
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Ghoset - ?
Skafra, Tyrant of Cloud and Mountain - Killed by Seswatha at Mengedda in 2155.
Skogma - "thought destroyed during the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars."
Skuthula, the Black - "one of the few Dragons known to have survived the Apocalypse."
Tanhafut, the Red - Killed by Nau-Cayûti at the Battle of Ossirish.
Wutteät, the Black, the Terrible, the Black-and-Golden, Father of Dragons - Still alive, somewhere near Sauglish.
I believe this is a list of all the Wracu we know of. Only Ghoset's fate is completely unknown. Which dragon is dead at the bottom of the Black Halls is a mystery though.
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Great list. I don't think we had that anywhere here yet. Thanks.
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Yeah that's interesting to see laid out. Weren't we lead to believe Wutteät was dead before WLW came out? I know there's the story about Ciogli breaking its neck -- which after discovering that Wutteat is still "alive", seems even more like a history-embellished legend. I'm wondering if the text ever explicitly said the dragon was dead, or simply defeated. Either way I assume his weird undead state is unique to him, since otherwise there shouldn't be any stories of dragons dying, embellished or not (Nau-Cayuti at least seems to have definitely killed Tahnhafut, since otherwise the tale doesn't really warrant the attention it gets if he just like, beat the thing up until it flew away).
It's also weird that so far, Wutteät is our only example of something being "undead" in the particular way that he is. All the other life we've seen is either ensouled (which includes Ciphrang and denizens of the Outside), or an automaton. The idea that he can only die when the World ends (which I assume is synonymous with "closing the gates to the Outside") is so different from anything else we are familiar with. It's not even really something that the audience could have guessed was possible given what we know of the metaphysics so far, so I'm curious how important that little detail is and whether we'll actually have it explained, or if it's just meant to be a bit of colorful window-dressing (and an excuse to have another truly ancient character aside from just the Inchoroi brothers, who are otherwise the only POV's to have firsthand accounts of prehistory).
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I certainly thought that Wutteät was dead prior to WLW. However, a human could survive a broken neck, it really isn't so crazy to think a Wracu could too. It is almost certain that Nau killed Tahnhafut, because he gains the moniker "Dragonslayer." I think it is fairly certain that Seswatha did killed Skafra. They had to have done massive amounts more damage then just a broken neck though.
Wracu's 'undead' state might be unique to Wutteät, but I don't think the evidence precludes that a similar state might effect decedent dragons as well. There is a fair chance that the two dragons we know to be killed were actually destroyed by the Heron Spear though. I don't know that anything short of probable complete dismemberment/discorporation would actually kill a Wracu. Keep in mind that it is said that Skuthula was "grievously wounded" at Mengedda, yet the Glossary says he is known to survive the Apocalypse. We simply don't have much to go on. The answer to the mystery would be to know which one/what killed the Wracu that ended up dead in the Black Halls though.
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Ghoset - ?
Skafra, Tyrant of Cloud and Mountain - Killed by Seswatha at Mengedda in 2155.
Skogma - "thought destroyed during the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars."
Skuthula, the Black - "one of the few Dragons known to have survived the Apocalypse."
Tanhafut, the Red - Killed by Nau-Cayûti at the Battle of Ossirish.
Wutteät, the Black, Father of Dragons - Still alive, somewhere near Sauglish.
I believe this is a list of all the Wracu we know of. Only Ghoset's fate is completely unknown. Which dragon is dead at the bottom of the Black Halls is a mystery though.
awesome list! thanks! :)
whatever dragons survived, they have to be the source of some revelation in TUC, tell the reader something unknown about Seswatha or Celmomas or Cujara Cinmoi
the way Skafra prattles on about Mog the god, i wonder if Kellhus can flip some loyalties with a big enough display of power?
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Per a comment on one of MGs facebook things, Wutteat is refered to as the black and gold at some point.
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Per a comment on one of MGs facebook things, Wutteat is refered to as the black and gold at some point.
You're right. I think, however, he is not really gold, per se, but the way his shiny bronze scales would look in natural light makes him look as if he was ensconced in gold.
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uh, i don't know if this has been done before, but the chorae/dragon problem ...
reasons why the Consults don't put chorae on wracu
1. there are a limited number of chorae
2. dragonhide is naturally so tough that even sorcery is unlikely to have much effect
3. dragons are so big/oddly composed that it would take many chorae to cover the whole thing (it took 3 for Uminyaki)
further, if all dragons have the fire of hell within, then a chorae would irritate/hamper the dragon while not salting it because of the thick hide
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reasons why the Consults don't put chorae on wracu
Dunno if it would help, but I remembr something about bashrag were designed to counter ishroi skills and wracu (as mass-production) are the same agains quya.
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reasons why the Consults don't put chorae on wracu
Dunno if it would help, but I remembr something about bashrag were designed to counter ishroi skills and wracu (as mass-production) are the same agains quya.
Nice! I bet Khellus emptied Sarkapus so he could make 1 dragon sorcery proof ... because ... idk.
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Well, considering how well Wutteät (even half-rotted Wutteät) stands up to both Akka and Cleric at the same time, the idea that they need Chorae to protect themselves seems a little misguided. Plus the fact that Aurang, at times, seems to have ridden at least Wutteät, no doubt others were riding other Wracu at times as well. Why would they want to put themselves in a Chorae bubble, when they were riding a nearly indestructible tank from which they could spin Wards (if they really had to) and work their own sorcery?
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H, that's a good explanation. Still, it doesn't truly answer Sci's question. You have Wracu that are nearly unstoppable and the only thing that can stop them are sorcerer's. Why wouldn't you just put 4 or 5 chorae(chorae isn't a problem for the Consult, Bakker has said they have the greatest horde in Earwa, thousands upon thousands) on them, and have them be virtually indestructible? It truly makes zero sense unless there is a plausible reason for doing so. And, I've never seen an answer that solved this riddle.
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Well, in reality, we only have evidence of one Dragon ever being killed by a sorcerer, that is Skafra by Seswatha at Mengedda, which, honestly, I don't really even believe. That whole scene makes little real sense if you think about it, Seswatha and Anaxophus standing there, assaulted by Wracu, holding the Heron Spear, and yet, never using it?
I think there is a good chance that the Heron Spear actually killed Skafra and what wounded Skuthula (who may well be the dead Wracu at the bottom of the Black Halls). We know they can actually be bested physically, consider that Ciögli broke Wutteät's neck with his bare hands. No doubt this was a rare feat, as Ciögli's like hasn't probably been seen before or again, but still, proves that sorcery wasn't the only answer.
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OK, all fair points. Still, can't you at least see where Sci is coming from? It really doesn't make any sense that Dragon aren't covered in chorae.
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OK, all fair points. Still, can't you at least see where Sci is coming from? It really doesn't make any sense that Dragon aren't covered in chorae.
Oh, I've agreed since he brought that up years ago. There are really two options, either it was something Scott just never thought of, or there is some Wracu-nature related reason. My point is just that in the event of it being the former and there is no latter justification, it's something that can kind of easily be ret-conned, with at least some plausibility (from the textual evidence I find).
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OK, all fair points. Still, can't you at least see where Sci is coming from? It really doesn't make any sense that Dragon aren't covered in chorae.
oh yeah, there needs to be a reason. if touching a dragon with a chorae doesn't harm the dragon, then i can't imagine anything besides chorae shortage + trust in a dragon's natural toughness
really, i have no idea how dragons get kilt at all. Akka is a motherfucking blaster master and all he manages to do is poke Wutteat. it's still hard to believe: perhaps the MOST-battle tested mandate sorcerer in the world that isn't Kellhus hurts an old as fuck, blind dragon so little, that the lizard just flies off
it maybe that Kellhus' primary use to the Great Ordeal's migration will just be air-to-air fighting
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OK, all fair points. Still, can't you at least see where Sci is coming from? It really doesn't make any sense that Dragon aren't covered in chorae.
Oh, I've agreed since he brought that up years ago. There are really two options, either it was something Scott just never thought of, or there is some Wracu-nature related reason. My point is just that in the event of it being the former and there is no latter justification, it's something that can kind of easily be ret-conned, with at least some plausibility (from the textual evidence I find).
like Wracu are too proud to wear them?
maybe it's possible that wearing a chorae fucks up the wireless signal from Mog so that none of the Derived wore them during the Mog-walking?
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we know chorae when touching skin (organic/bios such as men or sranc) impart protection to the whole organism from sorcery. there must be lines of conduction for the chorae effect that work to conduct the effect along organic tissue.
An example of chorae not touching skin but used to confer protection to an inorganic material are kells circumfrix which had three bound to the bronze ring
A great tree soared into the night sky, a hoary old eucalyptus, too ancient not to be named. His first thought was to set it alight, to transform it into a blazing beacon of his wrath—a funeral pyre for the betrayer, the seducer! But he could sense the absences that encircled the man, the three Chorae the Men of the Tusk had bound to his bronze ring. And he could see that he suffered . . .
and the no-gods carapace which is apparently an iron sarcophagus that legend states has 11 chorae bound to it, tho there is another quote that tells us the carapace is actually nimil and covered in choric script.
No-God—Also known as Mog-Pharau, Tsurumah, and Mursiris. The entity summoned by the Consult to bring about the Apocalypse. Very little is known about the No-God, save that he utterly lacks remorse or compassion and possesses terrible power, including the ability to control Sranc, Bashrag, and Wracu as extensions of his own will. Because of his armour (the so-called Carapace), which eyewitnesses describe as an iron sarcophagus suspended in the heart of a mountainous whirlwind, it is not even known whether he is a creature of flesh or of spirit. According to Mandate scholars, the Inchoroi worship him as their saviour, as do—according to some—the Scylvendi.
Somehow, his mere existence is antithetical to human life: during the entirety of the Apocalypse, not one infant drew breath—all were stillborn. He is apparently immune to sorcery (according to legend, eleven Chorae are embedded in the Carapace). The Heron Spear is the only known weapon that can harm him.
Secrets . . . Secrets! Not even the No-God could build walls against what was forgotten! Seswatha glimpsed the unholy Carapace shining in the whirlwind’s heart, a nimil sarcophagus sheathed in choric script, hanging . . .
going a bit off topic but assuming that the people werent just using a large number of chorae than necessary,then when chorae are used to protect relatively inorganic material there seems to be a need for an exponential number to impart protection from sorcery to these materials. How does this relate to wracu and why they dont just use chorae to protect themselves comes in how they describe their physiology
"FOOL. I AM THE FIRST. MY HIDE IS BRONZE. MY BONES ARE IRON!"
There must be a bios component to the wracu but if their physiology is primary inorganic particularly on their outside, perhaps it doesnt confer the protective effect of chorae very well and they would literally need to be covered head to claw in them and then some for it offer true protection
....or maybe its wracu-nature retcon [reasons] related :P
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we know chorae when touching skin (organic/bios such as men or sranc) impart protection to the whole organism from sorcery. there must be lines of conduction for the chorae effect that work to conduct the effect along organic tissue.
An example of chorae not touching skin but used to confer protection to an inorganic material are kells circumfrix which had three bound to the bronze ring
A great tree soared into the night sky, a hoary old eucalyptus, too ancient not to be named. His first thought was to set it alight, to transform it into a blazing beacon of his wrath—a funeral pyre for the betrayer, the seducer! But he could sense the absences that encircled the man, the three Chorae the Men of the Tusk had bound to his bronze ring. And he could see that he suffered . . .
and the no-gods carapace which is apparently an iron sarcophagus that legend states has 11 chorae bound to it, tho there is another quote that tells us the carapace is actually nimil and covered in choric script.
No-God—Also known as Mog-Pharau, Tsurumah, and Mursiris. The entity summoned by the Consult to bring about the Apocalypse. Very little is known about the No-God, save that he utterly lacks remorse or compassion and possesses terrible power, including the ability to control Sranc, Bashrag, and Wracu as extensions of his own will. Because of his armour (the so-called Carapace), which eyewitnesses describe as an iron sarcophagus suspended in the heart of a mountainous whirlwind, it is not even known whether he is a creature of flesh or of spirit. According to Mandate scholars, the Inchoroi worship him as their saviour, as do—according to some—the Scylvendi.
Somehow, his mere existence is antithetical to human life: during the entirety of the Apocalypse, not one infant drew breath—all were stillborn. He is apparently immune to sorcery (according to legend, eleven Chorae are embedded in the Carapace). The Heron Spear is the only known weapon that can harm him.
Secrets . . . Secrets! Not even the No-God could build walls against what was forgotten! Seswatha glimpsed the unholy Carapace shining in the whirlwind’s heart, a nimil sarcophagus sheathed in choric script, hanging . . .
going a bit off topic but assuming that the people werent just using a large number of chorae than necessary,then when chorae are used to protect relatively inorganic material there seems to be a need for an exponential number to impart protection from sorcery to these materials. How does this relate to wracu and why they dont just use chorae to protect themselves comes in how they describe their physiology
"FOOL. I AM THE FIRST. MY HIDE IS BRONZE. MY BONES ARE IRON!"
There must be a bios component to the wracu but if their physiology is primary inorganic particularly on their outside, perhaps it doesnt confer the protective effect of chorae very well and they would literally need to be covered head to claw in them and then some for it offer true protection
....or maybe its wracu-nature retcon [reasons] related :P
yeah it could totally be retconned but i don't think it is necessarily so...
i don't feel entirely comfortable following the idea that 1 chorae matches to 1 oragnism. i think the biggest organism on screen with 1 chorae has been a bashrag? and i don't know that the reader was told that the bashrag was wholly covered?
3 chorae for the tree and 11 for Mog could be outliers to whatever principle is generally involved...
i think i follow you at the end --> if a higher # of chorae are required to protect inorganic things and if the dragons are inorganic (or are in inorganic shells?) then the # of chorae required would be too high to be worth it? is that right? interesting idea! Robot-Dragons!!! Ewracu!
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maybe dragons are like the Seal from the end of TJE. dragons bring with them a tide of unreality from the Outside so that chorae are generally ineffective?
Mimara will kill Wutteat!!! Mimi...THE SLAYER
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yeah it could totally be retconned but i don't think it is necessarily so...
i don't feel entirely comfortable following the idea that 1 chorae matches to 1 oragnism. i think the biggest organism on screen with 1 chorae has been a bashrag? and i don't know that the reader was told that the bashrag was wholly covered?
3 chorae for the tree and 11 for Mog could be outliers to whatever principle is generally involved...
i think i follow you at the end --> if a higher # of chorae are required to protect inorganic things and if the dragons are inorganic (or are in inorganic shells?) then the # of chorae required would be too high to be worth it? is that right? interesting idea! Robot-Dragons!!! Ewracu!
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maybe dragons are like the Seal from the end of TJE. dragons bring with them a tide of unreality from the Outside so that chorae are generally ineffective?
Mimara will kill Wutteat!!! Mimi...THE SLAYER
yeah its hard to know whether one chorae per organism is a thing but it seems like when skin contact with a chorae is made it imparts protection to the whole body and not just a spherical region of influence. mog's carapace is most likely an outlier that was just important enough to get 11. I just dont think the anti sorcery effect of chorae conducts along inorganic things very well. else u could attach it to a wall or an iron cage and the whole thing should be sorcery resistant. So yeah wutteats hide being inorganic doesnt allow chorae to function well at protecting them from sorcery is my main hypothesis.
but i do like the simple explanation that its a tide of unreality. if u can have an undead dragon at this point it doesnt seem like a stretch to make almost anything possible when u invoke the outside. kinda annoying sometimes because it make a lot of the plot twist more deus ex machnina than something u actually predict based off everything you've read so far. like if the rules of chorae were more fleshed out we wouldnt be having so many competing but uncertain hypotheses 5 books in lol, which is kinda ironic for a series that emphasises cause and effect so strongly in its philosophy :P
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i hear you Spaces. i'm going to hope for the best with TUC. i bet Bakker won't have too much flimflam/deusex. goddamnit i'm ready to hear the end of it even if it's like Kellhus is Akka's Tyler Durden or something
Wracu--will we see any graftings? a 3 headed dragone might be nice. or one with 2 big ding dongs. serafim/dragons? 6 wings, 2 to cover their feet, 2 to cover their eyes, and 2 to fly with in the presence of the Most Holy Mog
Bashrag Dragonriders
Dragons dumping a squad of sranc into the center of a Great Ordeal formation
Dragons following illusions in the sky. Kellhus confuses them so that 2 dragons run into each other, their heads collide, and Sam the Sound Guy his the "bonk" button
Kellhus smites a dragon from the sky and then it falls on and kills Kayutas
Kellhus hypnotizes a dragon and then has Moe Jr ride it into battle
Kellhus has Moe Jr touch a dragon with a chorae so Bakker's readers can finally get our answer
Kellhus does metagnosis to grow to be tallish. Dragons perch on his shoulder while he punches the Horns
In an extended passage with nothing very disturbing, Bakker inserts a scene of mating dragons just to fuck with us
Wutteat, the dragon with hell within, dies in a fight with a Holy Dragon, one animated by Heaven and the God, the Fanim Dragon
The aforementioned dragon-riding Moe perishes in a touching scene: just after smiting down Wutteat, the last of the Consult Dragons, Moe's own stead hurtles, wounded, into the sea while Moe's last moments embrace the memory of Serwa's embrace
Wutteat tries to move into Ishual, finds it already has a Saurian resident, neither party is cool with roommates, they battle, Ishual is destroyed, Akka finds even more dead Wutteat entangled with corpse of dragon 2, Wutteat begs Akka to tell him the world is ended, Akka is like "nope, lol"