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91
General Misc. / Re: Quotes
« Last post by sciborg2 on November 09, 2021, 01:43:14 am »
‘Man is a stream whose source is hidden. Always our being is descending into us from we know not whence.’
 -Ralph Waldo Emerson

“we are continually overflowing toward those who preceded us, toward our origin, and toward those who seemingly come after us. ... It is our task to imprint this temporary, perishable earth into ourselves so deeply, so painfully and passionately, that its essence can rise again “invisibly,” inside us. We are the bees of the invisible. We wildly collect the honey of the visible, to store it in the great golden hive of the invisible.”

―Rainer Maria Rilke

"Paradoxically, the ability to be alone is the condition for the ability to love."
 -Erich Fromm, The Art of Loving

"Knowing how to be solitary is central to the art of loving."
  -bell hooks
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Literature / Re: Yearly Reading Targets 2021
« Last post by Wilshire on November 03, 2021, 12:56:16 pm »
Well I'm glad that one worked out for you. Those are some interesting comparisons, and I'll try to remember it later when I'm looking for a book. I've been struggling to finish a Peter F Hamilton book, which is a space opera that started out fun but has really dragged towards the end. Empire of Silence might be something I read in the future to make up for it.
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Literature / Re: Yearly Reading Targets 2021
« Last post by The P on November 02, 2021, 01:07:20 pm »
Empire of Silence by Christopher Ruocchio (20)

I really liked this one.  It has some very heavy Dune-inspired world/galaxy building.  Other people say it's like the Kingkiller Chronicle in space.  I haven't read that one, but it has similarities from what I know. It's basically a dude recounting his life and how he got to where he is (infamous, maybe incarcerated, for doing a big bad thing).  There are nice bits of flavor like "everyone tells the story this way, but this is what really happened," or "I didn't know it at the time, but the guy next to me was so-and-so that you know as having done such-and-such."  They aren't frequent, but I like that it reminds you of the frame and that we know where the story is going.
It's good, highly recommend.  Best space epic I've read in a long time (i.e. I like it better than the Expanse).
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by Wilshire on October 18, 2021, 04:49:45 pm »
I actually don't think I ever really thought about the Inchoroi bringing out old weapons race from previous planets and unleashing them on Earwa. So when Wutteat talked about traveling through the void I just assumed that meant they found him out there and let him tag along for some reason.

However with that now under consideration, it seems more likely he was created - just a much older creation than anything else they unleased on Earwa.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by H on October 15, 2021, 08:34:25 pm »
Yeah, I mean it's ambiguous.  In fact, I think I want to revise my position.  It probably makes a bit more sense to me now if Wutteät is another Ark-made thing.  Post-Fall though they don't have Ark to guide the development and can only work from the existing Wutteät pattern.  I'd still guess Wracu have souls though, even as derivative as likely they are.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by SmilerLoki on October 15, 2021, 08:18:52 pm »
Wutteat says something about traviling through the void through the ages, maybe even many worlds, so its at least somewhat supported by the text, rather than "one persons' head canon".
Aurang uses the same terminology in regards to traveling on the Ark and the Inchoroi's many genocides, so that's not in favor of Wutteat being some kind of unique space dragon - just another creature of the Ark.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by Wilshire on October 15, 2021, 11:52:07 am »
Its vague, but the general consensus is Wutteat was found in space. I believe the books are more clear that Wutteat is the template that the Earwa inchoroi used to create the Wracu.
I wouldn't call it consensus - it's so far one person's head canon, which other people seemed to for some reason accept without further examination.

Wutteat says something about traveling through the void through the ages, maybe even many worlds, so its at least somewhat supported by the text, rather than "one persons' head canon".

All this to say, Wracu very much fit into the standard Weapon Race role. They aren't exceptional, other than their physical variation. I see no significant reasons for why they should have special rules.
It's more that Bakker's comments seem to imply that - he outright states that Wracu have souls, that they have metaphysical interaction with Chorae, that their fire is neither sorcerous nor mundane, that they might be living topoi, etc.

I'm always of the opinion that Bakker's comments aren't particularly reliable or even generally useful. If its not in the books, and we've got 7, then its speculation. Interesting topics for conversation maybe, to try and fit what he says into the books, but hardly evidence imo.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by H on October 13, 2021, 04:54:30 pm »
Sranc aren't as senseless as you seem to think though. For example, they have language, culture, complex social structures. They also are used as Elju for Nonmen, which indicates a huge capacity for not just memory and recall, but also communication.

Unfortunately, we just don't have enough information one way or the other.  The way Skrafa talks, seems to imply to me he "gets it" and might comprehend paradox, but never explicitly says it.  That Wutteät like does have a soul tells us little to nothing, since the other Wracu are clearly derivative of him, meaning we have no idea what aspects might be passed on or not.

In Eärwa I think a soul is very tied to Heideggerian Dasein, that is, Being-there.  What does this mean?  It is Being for something for which the question of Being has Meaning.  Sranc certainly have language and so they likely understand Being to some degree, but for whatever reason, they do not comprehend the question of Being.  That is, there is no Meaning to Being, it just simply is.  Skin-spies seem about the same, they comprehend that they have Being (that is, that they exist) but they do not question the nature of this Being and when asked, (to unravel the paradoxical nature of Being that would always ceding to Becoming) they cannot comprehend it.

So we are just left to guess how much of Wutteät the Wracu are.  The answer is really anything you want though, there is no evidence one way or the other.  There also is no logic, Eärwan biology is somewhat like the real world, but ultimately not.  Wracu could have any number of souls, from zero to plus or minus infinity, despite, or in light, of that making no sense whatsoever.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by SmilerLoki on October 13, 2021, 04:39:39 pm »
Its vague, but the general consensus is Wutteat was found in space. I believe the books are more clear that Wutteat is the template that the Earwa inchoroi used to create the Wracu.
I wouldn't call it consensus - it's so far one person's head canon, which other people seemed to for some reason accept without further examination. I consider it just one of several possible scenarios. Wutteat can just as well be an advanced program of the Ark. Even more so, he refers to some unknown party as "his makers", which, considering all the Tekne aspects at play, goes more against the idea of his natural origins than for it.

I disagree completely, but we're reading the same stuff so there's nothing else to say for this one. IMO, complex social behaviors indicate an extraordinary level of intelligence, well beyond anything we see of the wracu - which are closer to bashrag/sranc though maybe a bit smarter.
Wracu seem rather fond of pathos, but otherwise pretty intelligent. Their communication reminds me of Aurang, only he just thinks about his genitals and all the things he would like to do with them, while Wracu prefer to vocalize their inner monologue - although with more focus on devouring (it's the size thing, I'd venture).

All this to say, Wracu very much fit into the standard Weapon Race role. They aren't exceptional, other than their physical variation. I see no significant reasons for why they should have special rules.
It's more that Bakker's comments seem to imply that - he outright states that Wracu have souls, that they have metaphysical interaction with Chorae, that their fire is neither sorcerous nor mundane, that they might be living topoi, etc.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by Wilshire on October 13, 2021, 12:28:47 pm »
Why does the Wracu high rate of mutation rule out selective breeding?  Its a basic tool of managing traits and the high rate of mutation means you're going to have a bunch that don't function very well or can't live because they're messed up internally.  Sky high hatching mortality is likely and probably keeps their numbers low.   Wracu are long lived so its quite possible their have only been a few generations with which to direct their development.
This just isn't how selective breeding works. It takes thousands of generations to get any meaningful separation of species/traits. When dealing with something that has any kind of generation time measured in years, let alone decades, this is just not possible. It would take millions, 10s of millions, of years to get what you have with the wracu. Since they were created on Earwa, its just not possible.

Granted, there's a ton of nonsensical biology that goes on in Earwa. We can simply say that "alien biology works differently", and therefore literally anything is possible. I find this unsatisfying, but acceptable. Magical Inchoroi "technology" coupled with infinitely "alien" biology, and a case can be made for anything. But if we're assuming any kind of IRL biology, selective breeding isn't possible.

I've seen zero evidence that Skin Spies are more intelligent than Wracu.  Skin Spies are trained to mimic men and infiltrate, which is something Wracu obviously can't do but they certainly comprehend and use language.
I disagree completely, but we're reading the same stuff so there's nothing else to say for this one. IMO, complex social behaviors indicate an extraordinary level of intelligence, well beyond anything we see of the wracu - which are closer to bashrag/sranc though maybe a bit smarter.

Did they find Wutteat in space?  The lines given suggested to me that he had been created in the Ark while it was in space. 
Its vague, but the general consensus is Wutteat was found in space. I believe the books are more clear that Wutteat is the template that the Earwa inchoroi used to create the Wracu.

As for the No-God controlling the Wracu, the writings suggest to me willing submission not control.   The No-God does not shout through Wracu throats.   They behave like vassals, not puppets.
That's not how I remember it, but its been a long time.

Souls in Earwa aren't the product of pure intelligence, but they do seem to require a near human level of intelligence because souls clearly require a significant level of self awareness.
I agree with H here, intelligence and souls seem to be unrelated imo. If random animals can have souls, then its not an intelligence thing.

The Wracu seem to possess this, although that might not be true.  Unlike Skin Spies we are not privy to their thoughts.
We have few intereaction with Wracu, especially disregarding Wutteat, but imo they show very limited awareness of any kind. Something closer to a sranc than anything else.


The other Weapon Races are dominated by their instincts and seem to lack both self awareness and ability to process contradictions.
Being dominated by instincts doesn't preclude the existence of a soul, nor does it guarantee it. Again, random animals can have souls.
Skin-spies must be extremely self aware to do what they do. As for the rest, probably not, and I include Wracu in that.

Sranc aren't as senseless as you seem to think though. For example, they have language, culture, complex social structures. They also are used as Elju for Nonmen, which indicates a huge capacity for not just memory and recall, but also communication.

All this to say, Wracu very much fit into the standard Weapon Race role. They aren't exceptional, other than their physical variation. I see no significant reasons for why they should have special rules.
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