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Messages - The Great Scald

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46
General Earwa / Re: Grimdark #3 -Bakkerview
« on: April 29, 2015, 02:23:23 pm »
Other comments on this story:

- The protagonist was okay for a swords-n-sandals pulp story, although he could've been given more depth - Bakker pulled it off well with Cnaiur, and could've done the same here
- Shinurta was creepy and disturbing, reminded me of Iyokus
- The use of magic was really clever, intelligent use of sorcery by the people of a setting where anti-magic defenses are common
- The setting was good, Carythusal really felt like a depraved Neo-Babylon or late imperial Rome
- The Queen could've been better written, but it's still nice to see a non-prostitute female character in Bakker
- The dialogue ranged from decent to cringeworthy

47
General Earwa / Re: Grimdark #3 -Bakkerview
« on: April 29, 2015, 02:08:39 pm »
I noticed a fanfic on Bakker's site that also deals with the outbreak of the Shrial-Sorcerer war. It's called "The Burning of Carythusal" or something like that.

I actually liked that fanfic better than this Grimdark vignette - in the fanfic story, the war breaks out when Shriah strikes the first blow, by dressing up the Mysunsai mercs as Shrial envoys and sneak-attacking the Scarlet Spires during a truce meeting. This version is a lot better than Bakker's low-effort pulp story where the Spires start the war by bewitching a gladiator into killing the Ainoni royals.

It's a shame that this story wasn't better written, because I know Bakker can do a lot better. It wasn't terrible, but it's a far cry from "The False Sun", which was brilliant.



48
Finished The Blade Itself this morning.


It ended up being a slog.  The characters ended up not being able to overpower my distaste for Abercrombie's writing style...

I've read some parts of The Blade Itself, years ago, but I was also put off by Abercrombie's juvenile writing style and attempts to imitate Tarantino in prose. I guess it's all a matter of taste - if you enjoy Tarantino's movies, you'll like Abercrombie's books.

I don't really read any fantasy lit anymore, Bakker excepted, and I honestly don't feel I'm missing out much.

49
General Earwa / Re: Grimdark #3 -Bakkerview
« on: April 27, 2015, 04:32:16 pm »
Madness suggested that a lot went missing from draft to word-count-capped GdM publishing. But thats just an excuse, he should have planned better if he knew he was going to run out of words. Still though, maybe he's just no good at paring down stories/ideas  to consumable morsels, and/or time restraints kill his prose. He certainly hasen't had a publication deadline and a word cap in recent years, so maybe he's rusty.

Yeah, maybe he's used to writing longer novels and posting stories on his blog where the word-count limit is the sky, so the constraints of a fan-mag choked this story. But I agree, he should definitely have planned to make it short in the first place - "The False Sun" is a lot shorter, and it's also Bakker's best short story by far. This one was just badly edited and awkwardly written.

I liked a lot of things about the story - the use of magic was really creative, the politicking of the Scarlet Spires was cool, the Queen of Ainon was a rare non-prostitute female character, and the Norse barbarian in a decadent southern city is always an adventure classic - but it just felt awkward and sloppily put together. A lot of parts were good, but the whole wasn't.

Some scenes are too long and verbose, others are way too short, there's typos all over the place. The ending, wherein Our Hero escapes the city and Carythusal burns down in the space of one sentence, is way too abrupt to make sense. My reaction to the whole story was just "meh".

50
General Earwa / Re: Grimdark #3 -Bakkerview
« on: April 27, 2015, 03:37:39 pm »
I've now read both parts of "The Knife of Many Hands" - it's definitely not terrible, but far from the best Bakker has written. It had some good parts, but felt very awkward and "patchy", and ended too abruptly. If I didn't know better, I'd think this was Bakker's first story.

I don't know if Bakker has gotten worse as a prose writer or if he's just awkward in the swords-n-sandals Howard genre (which he's emulating in this story), but it's a very far cry from the last things he wrote. WLW and "The False Sun" were Bakker at the top of his game, so this recent drop in quality is a bit weird. Maybe he was trying to overcome writer's block? Maybe he's just really unused to the Conan genre, being more of a cerebral guy? Maybe his fantasy-writing skills are rusty after spending all this time blogging about neuroscience? I have no idea.


51
Neuropath / Re: Neuropath Kindle version (amazon.com)
« on: April 11, 2015, 12:17:19 am »
Weird.

My paper copy of Neuropath definitely includes the serial killer's internal monologues in italics in between the actual chapters.

(AFAIK, he mostly talks about how he really likes to fuck the meat.)

52
General Earwa / Re: The Womb-Plague (A new theory, perhaps?)
« on: March 26, 2015, 06:29:59 pm »
I don't think the Womb Plague makes sense strategically at all, but it makes a lot of poetic sense.

Bakker has drawn on the Old Testament and the Iliad for inspiration a lot, and this bit of Nonman backstory has a very "ancient legend" feel to it - the proud and arrogant king demanding that the gods give him immortality, which they do, at a terrible price. God gives with one hand and takes away with the other, be careful what you wish for, etc etc.

53
Literature / Re: Peter Watts thread
« on: February 04, 2015, 10:47:36 pm »
I finished "Echopraxia" today.

It was, to be honest, a bit of a disappointment. It was a pretty cerebral book and full of techno-jargon, but unlike "Blindsight", it didn't have an intense storyline and a compelling cast of characters to help along the techno-babble. Instead, the protagonist was a bland dork (I can't even remember his name; this book didn't have any memorable characters like Sarasti or Desjardins) and the story didn't really go anywhere interesting.

It also felt like Watts was trying to squeeze too many scientific and intellectual concepts into this book, while "Blindsight" was so brilliant because its intellectual point was really simple: human consciousness is a fake and an evolutionary flaw. This book, though, was just sorta muddled and all over the place.

Not sure if I'd recommend it.

54
Literature / Peter Watts thread
« on: December 27, 2014, 11:49:34 pm »
Peter Watts is probably my favorite author of sci-fi/fantasy, right next to Bakker. Last week I finished "Blindsight", and I don't think I have been so impressed by a sci-fi book in a very long time.

"Blindsight" can be found for free here:

http://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm

"Starfish", his first book (and the first part of a trilogy), was also a really fascinating read. Not for the light-hearted, since it's far more perverted and disturbing than "Blindsight", but pretty compelling. If you liked Bakker, you'll like this. Can be found here:

http://www.rifters.com/real/STARFISH.htm

Post your own thoughts and Watts recommendations.

55
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Nonmen Society
« on: December 17, 2014, 01:05:54 pm »
In short: Nonmen and Nonmen Society must be derived from something that Came Before, due to the Causality Principle.  If not, this has wide reaching implications for the Causality Principle and Earwa as a whole.  Although it seems that the Nonmen are as oblivious to their ultimate origin as humans are to theirs.

If I remember the appendix right, the Nonmen's endonym means "People of Dawn" or something like that, but that they've long since forgotten what their own endonym refers to. So, yeah, their own history is a question mark even to themselves.

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Personally, I hope there is some kind of not too distant link between them (go back far enough and everything has a common ancestor. I'd prefer a somewhat more recent ancestor )

Nonmen and Men don't need to be closely related, or even have any shared ancestors more recent than primordial slime. They could be a close relative of Men, and that's more biologically realistic, but they could be something else entirely. Convergent evolution has produced a lot of creatures that look similar and fill similar functions, but are from completely different species. The similar looks of dolphins (mammals) and marine dinosaurs (reptiles) is probably the most famous case:



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I feel like their colors are largely muted or near-grayscale, with perhaps some exceptions with bronze or copper {the Copper Tree of Siol, etc.}.  Color has significant implications for language and communication though, at least for Men.  So for Nonmen their muted world's characteristics would have to be read in entirely alien ways....

Or maybe their colors are just invisible to the human eye. Maybe they can see in the infrared spectrum, or on other planes that we can't perceive. It's possible that the big Nonman Mansions in their glory days were full of art and color, but would just look colorless and grim to us. 

The screenwriter of the Ridley Scott movie "Prometheus", when talking about the god-aliens (who, as many posters have noted, look very much like Bakker's Nonmen), describes their culture like this:

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Their civilisation is millions of years old. Once, the Engineers expressed themselves as humans do - taking pleasure in music, colours and story - but they’re able to see in more dimensions than we do. Their art and ornament exist on planes imperceptible to human senses. Their constructions look dark and grim to us; but the Engineers’ eyes see far more than our own. The individual Engineers live for a hundred thousand years. Aeons ago, their race abandoned sex and gender, reproducing by more abstract methods. In recent millennia they have ceased to reproduce altogether.
~ Jon Spaihts, “Alien Master Narrative”, script notes.

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2013/07/21/gods-monsters/

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The Nonmen do not sequester religion / worship into a certain societal niche, all of their activities are religious / worshipful in nature.  They are obsessed with the living form, beyond mere fascination, and this indicates their terror....  But terror of what?  Terror of being flesh and blood?  Or terror of the living form's connection with the Outside, and the potential of Damnation?

I dunno. Maybe they had an existential terror, or fell into pessimism like Nietzsche thought the Greeks did - they were already a really old and exhausted civilization by that point. Pretty likely that their "terror", and obsession with the void, was because of the Outside and their own damnation after death.

Or it could just be their terror of forgetting and being forgotten. Akka talks a lot about the statues in Cil-Aujas, and how the ancient Nonman art is a lot more dynamic and simple, while the later stuff is so detailed it's almost photographic. His point is that the Nonmen went insane as a culture and tried to record every little detail in their art, down to the smallest cracks on people's toenails, since they'd forget it otherwise.

56
Introduce Yourself / Reintroducing myself...
« on: September 25, 2014, 10:52:20 am »
After about a year's hiatus, I'm rejoining Bakker-world. I guess I had to make some sort of announcement, so here it is. Nice to see the forum's still going well.

57
How does the article deal with the emergence of living organisms (which would "cause" time to emerge, according to them) on the planet? I'm pretty sure the universe wasn't in a constant stasis before the earliest forms of life came around. (And how would they evolve, in an universe where time stands still and nothing happens?)

Interesting article, though. Reminds me of Ray Brassier (author of "Nihil Unbound") who argues that entropy is the ultimate fate of everything, and that time as we know it doesn't "really" exist at a quantum level, so in reality everything is dead already.

58
Philosophy & Science / Re: Suicide or not
« on: February 12, 2014, 03:55:53 pm »
Don`t you think that deep down on a emotional level you most of all want to be convinced that you are wrong?

Of course I want to be convinced that I'm wrong.

(AFAIK, even Bakker himself said the same thing in the Neuropath foreword - that he's found himself in the bizarre position of wanting his own theory to be wrong, since it goes against all the pleasant fictions our brains tell themselves.)

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I think that this urge/drive you have actually is the will to live, and you prove that you have it by reaching out in your own special way.

The will to live isn't necessarily a good thing.

59
Philosophy & Science / Re: Suicide or not
« on: February 12, 2014, 01:35:05 am »
Auriga, who said that last quote?

It's from a suicide note (the world's longest one, the guy wrote more than 1000 pages before he shot himself in the Harvard yard). I agree with most of what he says.

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Why does the possible lack of Meaning prevent you from finding things that are personally meaningful?

Because there is no "I" in any real sense. Once those comforting illusions are broken, I can't go back and live a lie.

Maybe I'm clinically insane. I don't know. 

First, definitely read the link suggested by Phallus Pendulus as it's an interesting response to Ligotti.

The critique of Ligotti is pretty well thought-out, but he completely redefines "Truth" for the sake of the argument (he writes that Truth is a completely subjective thing, and more of a heuristic experience than a divine commandment of Nature/God/whatever). His conclusion wasn't that impressive.

Maybe he does have a point - that there's some higher truths or realities that we're not able to grasp, while our brains are hardwired to constantly search for the truth. So every time we decide on a final ultimate Truth (whether it's Christianity or Nihilism or whatever), it will inevitably turn out to be flawed and unsatisfactory.

An interesting article, all in all. Reminds me a lot of the "total uncertainty" of Celia Green, in many ways.

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Just seems the more I read/watch/listen the less sure I am about the supposedly obvious conclusions.

I suppose that's one way of dealing with existential doubts, lol. Overloading your brain with all sorts of different philosophies and scientific theories, until you just break down from the overload and throw up your hands in the air and admit "All I know is that I don't know a shit."

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Finally, regarding consciousness as an emergent phenomenon I've read critiques that this seems to lead to Chalmers' dreaded panpsychism anyway.

Panpsychism makes no sense to me. If "everything is conscious", what even counts as a "thing"? If my shoe is conscious, is any part of it separately conscious too? Is the (arbitrary but valid) object consisting of my foot inside the shoe a conscious mind?

60
Philosophy & Science / Re: Suicide or not
« on: February 12, 2014, 12:35:33 am »
And finally we get to the aspect-emperor of the forum, the big cheese, the numero uno:

Madness:

I'm responding but I do want to note that please seek out every available counter-argument (including, and especially, direct criticisms of the authors who have affected this "negative enlightenment" in you)

I haven't found any convincing counter-arguments to any of them. How do you argue against philosophies that are grounded in actual cognitive psychology and empirical science? I don't especially want to be an eliminativist or a nihilist, but I can't disprove these views.

As for Bakker in particular...I've never seen any valid counter-arguments to The Argument, and I can't think of any. The only serious one I've seen was a review of Neuropath that basically played a semantics-game and redefined the concept of "self": http://www.shaviro.com/Blog/?p=698

Other than that, the most common criticism of Bakker's position seems to be "Bakker is a sexist poo-poo head, I hate him".

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You've not seen the value I do in my views in other, similar conversations so I won't reiterate them here. I believe you are valuable in that you have unique experiences and knowledge unavailable to me and you've already expanded me much in your interaction here in the past (almost) twoish years.

Thanks, I guess.

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To be fair, people say Neuropath is the amateur Ligotti. My main question of such thinkers is "are the criterion by which you establish meaninglessness a result of sociocultural organization as it has stood/stands?" If so, then every nihilist has an obligation to affect change in society and cultural to prove that every sociocultural arrangement actually does result in meaninglessness.

Interesting. Could you explain it further?

(The nihilist view, which I share, is that socio-cultural arrangements exist only for evolutionary purposes, which are ultimately meaningless and purposeless.)

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However, why is the goal of suicide the result?

I'm not saying that nihilism = suicide. A real nihilist would be indifferent to life or death. I'm just saying that there's no actual reason why life is objectively better than death. From a purely rational standpoint, the choice of life isn't any superior to death. Looking at it from a nihilist/materialist point of view: if you want to kill yourself, there's really no reason not to.

Almost all my life, I've been a melancholic sort of person. This is far from my first depression, and I'll probably have many more if I live into old age. Why shouldn't I end it all?

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How do you know that all those thinkers that contribute to this worldview aren't poor arguers

This is a non-question. How do I prove God doesn't exist?

You're basically asking me to tell myself: "I believe science is wrong because I want it to be wrong."

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If what exists, if what we experience is inherently meaninglessness, what is to stop us, truly, from making that meaninglessness beautiful?

You first have to decide that "beautiful" is an objectively meaningful concept, lol. I don't think it is.

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Why does the result always have to be incapacitation? Why does the reaction have to be one of apathetic futility?

I dunno. It's probably got a lot to do with the fact that people who have these existential doubts are usually introverted people. Quiet, thoughtful people who spend a lot of time in abstract thinking. They're not extroverted, energetic go-getters (those kind of people are usually more interested in other people than in abstract ideas) who have lots of motivation to change things.

Introverted people usually get overwhelmed by these kinds of thoughts, and become mentally paralyzed. 

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Isn't it possible that there is coherency beyond what our human brains can perceive? Isn't it likely that humans don't actually know enough about anything for nihilism, religions, philosophy to be "the way things are?"

No. If we can't perceive or infer it, then it can't exist for us.

It doesn't matter if there's a coherency or purpose beyond what our brains can know, it's really a non-issue.

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I want to engage life.

Good for you.

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Auriga, I value your unique reality-tunnel and I still wish to spend a whole lifetime learning from differences between us.

Thanks for the compliment, I suppose, although "my" reality tunnel isn't really "mine" in any real sense - it was all a pointless delusion of being a person. 

Anyways, to end this debate:

"Since there's no personal God and no gods, no good and no evil, no right and no wrong, no meaning and no purpose, it means that there aren't any no values that are inherently valuable. There's no justice that is ultimately justifiable, no reasoning that is fundamentally rational, and no sane way to choose between science, religion, racism, philosophy, nationalism, conservatism, nihilism, liberalism, surrealism, fascism, asceticism, subjectivism, elitism, or ismism. If reason is incapable of deducing ultimate non-arbitrary human ends, and nothing can be judged as ultimately more important than anything else, then freedom is equal to slavery, cruelty is equal to kindness, love is equal to hate, destruction is equal to creation, life is equal to death, and death is equal to life."

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