We might've been spoiled with the delicious long "showdown" between Kel and Moe at the end of the 3rd book. Personally, I loved the ending of TUC and was somewhat glad for it given I was emotionally wiped out by then. The ending surprised me and it made sense. And it REALLY hammered us on the power of the Dunyain - the warning Bakker is sharing with us is clear beyond nuance; be wary of manipulation as it often "works" without detection and can get you to do the damnedest things.

I hear ya, I didn't understand it either. I talked a few things out here, but still was confused by it. After a few weeks, I took another shot at it and it was much clearer with the "flash backs' being more obvious to me, easier to follow.

I would say TFS confused me about the ending of TUC more than anything - I was expecting some serious shit to go down with them, but either they were all dead by then or were routinely dispatched of - which is not a criticism, I LOVED the ending, just trying to figure out what Bakker had in mind with TFS.

You know - Bakker has mentioned a few times with his Q&A sessions with us that it appears we missed something regarding The Consult ( one example was someone questions validity of The Consult bringing back Dunyain, Bakker said ( paraphrasing ) we missed something to ask that question and left it as Humility wasn't a feature of The Consult psychology ). Hmm ... making me think that maybe they "need" to be led, part of their genetic engineered pathology. We see Aurang "teaming" with Shae in a way suggesting more than simply strategy, collecting/corrupting allies for their cause. And we see Aurax cower before The Mutilated when he hears of his brother's demise. Maybe they're are all part of "machinery" ... more than techne enhanced, but purely techne generated - though they are damned, so maybe not. I don't know, it's like I'm on to "it", but keeps escaping me and I find conflicting evidence to any conclusion I attempt to draw.

Yeah, agreed, why I made this post - just didn't see TFS "ruining" TUC at all - maybe like some of you are saying I had a better understanding of the IF so I could understand the ending easier ( for which ease of understanding is apparently a negative for our beloved author )

Look, Curethan - I'm sure I speak for everyone on this forum without exception - we all want diverse views. Nobody has kicked me out yet and if there were a poll, my posts would probably win the award for the most inane posts ( I once posted I thought PON was a romance novel with its central thesis being love - I still think that idea has legs  ).

Would love for you to stay, want everyone to stay. If your point is you don't want to ruffle feathers - well, its plausibly impossible for anyone to accomplish that via text/email/blog posts since conversational written word alone fails to denote emotion, humor and friendly sarcasm. Not to insult you, but I found nothing of what you posted to be immature, incorrect, insulting, in bad taste or form, etc. It could be worse, you could be ignored -
 most of my posts go unanswered or maybe if I'm lucky I get 1 response. Doesn't phase me a bit, there's bound to be a stupid redneck to come along and like the books FOR the sexual depravity and violence and not in spite of it . I finished the 3rd book thinking the Inchoroi and the Non-men were the same "people", only to come here and find out they're not and one of them were aliens ( in my defense, Inchoroi and Ishroi are very similar "alien" terminology among the mass bombardment of hard to pronounce language ). Everything is described as art, so I took burning ark from the skies as some magical evil vehicle raising hell on it's way in ... not a spaceship ( in a fantasy novel ) crashing into the planet. The apparently very patient souls on this forum set me straight and I've grown to love this work all the more because of it.

Maybe I'm simply not a sensitive person, maybe completely misunderstand your position, but you've posted  700+ times over the years and it would be a waste to dismiss that and we would be lessor without you.

Reconsider.

Edit: and besides, you have a cool name and picture

ha, ha - true - that was a massive turn on reading Inchoroi/man sex after killing off the most powerful sorcerer at that time. 

And to think, this may have all been avoided if Titira didn't hesitate berating Shae and simply attacked ...

Bakker said The False Sun will "spoil" how we think of The Consult by reading it before TUC. I don't know - seemed like there wasn't much of The Consult left by the end. They lost ( a thousand? ) sorcerers destroying Ishual. Shae "left" when The Mutilated took over. Aurang is quickly slain. Not sure if the 100 skinspies are all Techne creations or some Mangaecca ( who Bakker says have all died off ). Not sure what he was getting at, that The False Sun spoils anything for me. I guess providing some POV from The Consult, it demonstrates the incredible manipulative abilities of The Dunyain to have orchestrated a successful/complete coup. Anyone have better insight into this? Maybe I'm too thick to have "gotten" the spoiler ...

Solip - Not sure what your point is - no government is "great". Some are more effective than others in promoting "successful" society given human reality. If we were this or that is simply day-dreaming. Don't see a "better" alternative to Democractic Republics ( voting people in to do the work of government with constitutional protections ). We've grown in population and technological proliferation yielding a complexity too daunting for a single individual to manage. You're accurate on the weakness of democracy, the solution is to proliferate education to as many as possible. And even that, won't "solve" problems with corruption, pettiness, stupidity ... unfortuneately, those qualities are here to stay, my friend. Constitutional balance of power mechanisms have yeilded the "best" results thus far. What else could there be?

Woden - disagree, you're giving humanity too much credit to sport the competence for true conspiracy ( conspiracy would be an impressive achievement and a relief if there was indeed one - but simply beyond our grasp ). There are human networks operating in the leadership superstructure, but they evolve/devolve, change directions and don't amount to "conspiracy". The "bad"/"corrupt"/"destructive" decisions of government stem from incompetence, not evil manipulation.