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Topics - Wilshire

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And, finally, the "other half" of the excerpt we got back in 2012.

Small quote spoiler tagged below, click the link to see the rest over at Pat's Fantasy Hotlist

(click to show/hide)

TGO ARC Discussion / [TGO SPOILERS] Dunyain and breeding
« on: May 18, 2016, 03:27:23 pm »
Regarding the Tracery and the Whale-Mothers.

First, the Tracery seems a pretty lame test of intellectual acuity. On the surface, its great. Only the most brilliant and fastest mental processors will be able to pin a leaf under a spinning coin. That's crazy.
However, once you get older and your reflexes dull, the mind clouds, that doesn't make you're genes less viable. I would expect something more elegant.
Important for later, but its mentioned that the ones that don't breed are sent into the mines to do manual labor - excavating the Thousand Thousand Halls.

The whole Whale-Mothers scene was very disturbing Thoughts of mine from another thread
Brings up Whale-Mothers. Why would men be selected for physical and mental acuity and women selected for being giant whales? The only reason I can come up with is because the Dunyain needed to breed as much and as frequently as possible. Shorter generations means less time to breed the intellectual acuity to become a self moving soul. This can be achieved in several ways:
Breeding at younger ages. The early a woman can bare children, the more children she can have.
The older she can still bare viable children, the she can have total in her lifetime.
Shorter time period between birth and the next pregnancy
Shorter time to reach full term baby. I'm not sure the mother affects this, but I'm guessing a healthy momma that gives neutrants to babies more quickly means the baby grows faster.

These things might have selected for large women with wider hips, lead to retaining more fat and nutrient stores, and potentially selected against intellect.
Sorry if my misunderstanding of biology and pregnancy are grossly inadequate.

It seems the decision was made to select, when breeding women, for those most capable of bearing children, and lots of them.  I imagine everyone, men and women, came to the consensus to select women's physical features for child bearing/rearing, and men's for physical fitness. However, they couldn't just stop selecting for intellectual acuity, otherwise they'd basically be canceling out the effects of what they were trying to breed into the men. That has interesting implications.

Did the dunyain males just brainwash all the women to consent to their role?
Did the women themselves consent without provocation? They might have been just as interested in obtaining the Absolute, and realized their role in the matter. Without them, it would have been impossible.
Maybe the women had their intellects artificially stunted at some point. It would be important to still only allow the most intellectually acute to breed, even among women. That means they'd have to be shackled/convinced/brainwashed/etc after they passed through the thousand thousand halls - or some other test just for intellect (as the TTH was also a physical test). With neuropuncture, this should be fairly trivial.

Aside from all that, I doubt they should really ever have been able to have such a difference between sexes, for much of the same reason that they couldn't just make all the women dumb and the men smart. Because they are breeding, those genes would get mixed together constantly. If the women were tending to get fat and big-boned, genetically speaking, then so too should the sons of those women. They all had to be bred to be smart and physically fit, so really the physical changes seen, other than perhaps wider hips, would need to be  induced phenotypically post-selection for breeding. Some difference in diet and exercise ...

TGO ARC Discussion / [TGO SPOILERS] The head on a pole
« on: May 18, 2016, 03:02:08 pm »

I could not squeeze any meaning from this phrase.

Also, is the very first POV we get with this line from Kellhus? I thought it was from something other than a Human, but subsequent instances make it appear that it was Kellhus, though why it was all italicized, I don't know. And what about eating babies?

Any clarity would be much appreciated.

TGO ARC Discussion / [TGO SPOILERS] The trailer, in light of TGO
« on: May 16, 2016, 07:12:01 pm »

Feels a bit spoilery, towards the last half of the trailer.

I don't want to think about it too hard for fear of spoilering more, but does anyone else get this feeling?

If I had one criticism, it would be the potentially egregious overuse of ellipses.

General Earwa / the principle of Before and After
« on: May 12, 2016, 06:18:41 pm »
Thoughts dredged from the Slog.
Upon further reflection, I guess I don't get it.

"That which comes before determines that which comes after."

Seems simple enough, and makes logical sense. Cause, effect. Do something, there is a reaction. In reverse, any observed reaction should be able to be followed back to a cause. To its origin.
Maybe it says a little something about free will, and freedom, too. You don't determine your actions, rather the chain of events preceding any action taken determined it.

My real confusion comes from the reverse of the statement.

"That which comes after determines that which comes before"

Sorcery if oft cited as such an event. Can someone explain why? The schoolmen using sorcery still fall into that circuit of before and after, don't they?
If you know a person is a schoolmen, and know the  events leading up to a situation just before the dispensation of sorcery, wouldn't you, or at least a Dunayin, be able to surmise that said schoolmen would Sing?

How is the after - sorcery - in fact the before? How can the reaction, an event, be its own cause?

News/Announcements / New forum Theme/look/format
« on: May 10, 2016, 07:38:19 pm »

With the advent of TGO neigh, we wanted to spruce up the forum a bit. Since are currently working on transferring to a more stable host (which should fix the posting and PM issues), we wanted to change things up.

We will be sticking with a Simple Machine Forum (SMF), so as to avoid interruptions, but  there is a lot that can be done to re-skin this place and make it not look like it was built in the 90's.

Any and all are welcome to provide feedback, though I can't guarantee any one person will be satisfied with every change.

Some notes:
No dark background with light text.
We are considering buying/designing a custom theme.
This site has some examples of whats possible:;sa=premium;start=0
Alternatively you could go here and select from the dropdown menu up at the top banner one of their themes. This lets you look at a demo site, very cool:
Wish list of features anyone? We will do our best to keep an quorum/IM equivalent.

General Misc. / The Great Ordeal ARCs
« on: May 02, 2016, 09:20:19 pm »

I'll not say its a good deal, as its very likely going to be way over priced, but you can bid for an ARC of TGO currently. Good luck.

Listing sold for $76.

Below a TGO ARC was purchased for $15.

Author Q&A / What did we miss?
« on: March 14, 2016, 03:26:15 pm »
Is there anything that you would have expected the readers to have seen/noticed/figured-out by now that we haven't? Are there events/scenes/characters that have been interpreted completely contrary to what you expected or intended?

General Misc. / Collector's edition of Bakker books
« on: February 02, 2016, 05:00:27 pm »
If you want a 1st edition 1st print of any of the TSA books, or Advanced Reader Copies / Uncorrected Proof, I assure you they are out there.

That said, I sometimes run across good deals so I figured I'd share the information by posting it in this thread.

Some potentially useful information to the aspiring Bakker collector:

Things like 1st/1st of TDTCB in great condition often show up for around $80. More than that and you're better off looking some more. Less than that, and you'll want to make sure you are getting what you think you're buying. 1st edition 2nd printing (missing the '1' from the numberline) will go as low as a few bucks, up to over $100+. You'll be disappointed if you get a 1st/2nd and paid full price for it (Overlook printed the 2nd prints on bad paper, so they are already heavily yellowed, and have printing stains on them.)

TWP 1st/1st tend to be a bit less expensive, but can be harder to find. Generally they are priced cheaper than TDTCB. Maybe $50.

TTT, as far as I can tell, they only did 1 print run, and while lots of them have been remaindered (black mark on the pages at the bottom in sharpie), they are generally not too difficult to find and shouldn't be too pricey.  You should expect to pay more for one that isn't remaindered.

TJE and TWP probably only have 1 print run as well, and should be pretty easy to find given their publication date. They should cost about what a new hardcover costs.

If you are interested in purchasing a 1st/1st of TDTCB you can PM me, I might have an extra one or two laying around that I could sell you.

Advanced Reader Copies (ARCs) and/or Uncorrected Proofs:
All the Prince of Nothing books have Uncorrected Proof editions. These are softcover, published by Penguin, and while not particularly prolific, tend to sell fairly cheaply, maybe $30 or less for each. They can be difficult to come by, and I've seen prices increase over time.

It looks like Overlook switched from "Uncorrected Proof" to ARC after PON. I have never seen an 'Uncorrected Proof' of TJE, but if you find one let me know. ARCs do exist and tend to be more expensive than their PoN counterparts. The two ARCs that I have seen were published by Overlook. Softcover.

WLW  has Uncorrected Proofs as well, and at least when I was looking, was easier to find and cheaper than the TJE ARC. Published by Overlook. Softcover

Might be noteworthy for the completionist/OCD in you, that there is a press release sent along with each. Its just a piece of paper that has a synopsis of Bakker's books and its printed on an Overlook letterhead.

The first thing that struck me here was on pg 439.
Akka has a dream that is not of the holy war, at least initially. In the dream Inrau cries out from the darkness "They're here, old teacher! In ways you cannot see!"

Could this have actually been inrau's soul seeking Achamian out, trying to warn him?

Kellhus and Cnaiur journey through the trackless steppe.

Part two of the slog.

General Earwa / MOVED: Viramsata
« on: August 14, 2015, 01:40:57 pm »
This topic has been moved to General Misc., as General Earwa is reserved for Earwa specific topics.

You can find the original topic here:

General Misc. / Alright, who's holding out?
« on: July 30, 2015, 05:06:08 am »

last comment:
I am eager for the conclusion of the series and I also admit, that it is a shame how the whole process turned out. But then again Scott Baker should look out for a new publisher or try using Kickstarter for his next project. Actually crowdfunding for self publishing could work for him, as his fanbase is mostly based on 20+ nerds with a good amount of money.

This guy's calling you out... We'd love to get a TSA film deal rolling, some graphic novels, maybe an HBO series, and some modest upgrades to our podcasting hardware. The forum could use some sprucing up as well. Let me know ;)

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