TUC - of heaven and hell

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Wilshire

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« on: July 25, 2017, 09:47:26 pm »
First thing I noticed in TUC, was the What Came Before section. Curiously, "the Outside" seems to have been replaced with the words Heaven and Hell.

I don't have the means to run the query wholesale, but I thought throughout the series so far we only ever get Outside, rather than heaven/hell, or at least seldom.
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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2017, 10:47:57 pm »
Maybe RSB is increasing the mention of the 100 heavens because readers seem to default into buying into Fanimry?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2017, 11:18:20 am »
Maybe RSB is increasing the mention of the 100 heavens because readers seem to default into buying into Fanimry?
Yeah I'm not really sure, but that's where my mind goes as well. And, a shame too, because it seems a lot of people skip over the WHCB sections - though that's their own fault and I shouldn't feel bad for them. However, I do wonder if anyone has read TUC's WHCB lol, since there are several things in it that gave me pause that haven't been brought up yet.

This is definitely along the lines of something I'd like to ask in the AMA, though its been brought up before - can the WHCB be taken as more accurate/truthful than most other sections of the book? Largely because there are a few other parts within them, TUC specifically though, that have strong implications if they can be taken as factual.

As another example, it explicitly states that Moenghus fled from Ishual, without implication that the other Dunyain were complicit. Nowhere else in the text is this distinction made, and its important.
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Madness

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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2017, 06:31:26 pm »
The Heavens and the Hells have been referred to before as making up the Outside.

I think it's readers and those discussing online who have created this "cultural assumption" that the Outside is homogeneous.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2017, 06:35:17 pm »
Damnit. Reader's are the worst.
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Madness

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« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2017, 01:09:56 am »
To be fair:

Quote from: The False Sun
For I have seen the virtuous in Hell and the wicked in Heaven. And I swear to you, brother, the scream you hear in the one and the sigh you hear in the other sound the same.

–Anonymous

And then people seem to cite maybe one other epigraph from the books and now the Head-on-the-Pole passages in TGO.
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Dunkelheit

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« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2017, 08:07:54 pm »
I think it's readers and those discussing online who have created this "cultural assumption" that the Outside is homogeneous.

Both what Meppa and the high priestess says about the Outside seems to indicate this though. Meppa says the gods are nothing but greater demons, and the rather than argue against this the high priestess fires back with there being no borders on the outside. Also, as far as I understand the inverse fire shows that the nonmens religion is false, that they can't move in between the gods in the Outside and are therefore damned. Which would support the priestess claim that there are no borders. Perhaps the Outside is not homogeneous, but it seems to be continuous at least.

Then again Kellhus explains that mortals can't accurately perceive the infinite/Outside, so maybe we can't totally trust what they are saying.

Yellow

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« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2017, 08:23:39 pm »
I love the bleakness of these books. For millenia, the Cunuroi thought they could "sneak" past damnation and into Oblivion. But every single one of them that looks into the Inverse Fire sees that for the bullshit it is.
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2017, 10:15:45 am »
I love the bleakness of these books. For millenia, the Cunuroi thought they could "sneak" past damnation and into Oblivion. But every single one of them that looks into the Inverse Fire sees that for the bullshit it is.

Well, I don't think it's bullshit that they could find Oblivion, but it is simply difficult to the point of near impossibility.
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2017, 07:22:54 pm »
I think it's readers and those discussing online who have created this "cultural assumption" that the Outside is homogeneous.

Both what Meppa and the high priestess says about the Outside seems to indicate this though. Meppa says the gods are nothing but greater demons, and the rather than argue against this the high priestess fires back with there being no borders on the outside. Also, as far as I understand the inverse fire shows that the nonmens religion is false, that they can't move in between the gods in the Outside and are therefore damned. Which would support the priestess claim that there are no borders. Perhaps the Outside is not homogeneous, but it seems to be continuous at least.

The problem with that conversation, and the books as a whole, is that Meppa gives us no information regarding what the Fanim actually believe. He's talking about how the Fanim see the Hundred, I don't take that as admission regarding what he might believe about the Solitary God.
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