[TUC Spoilers]Fatal flaw of Dunyain philosophy?

  • 13 Replies
  • 4336 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Dunkelheit

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 48
    • View Profile
« on: July 28, 2017, 12:40:11 pm »
As far as I understand the Dunyains philosophy is basically buddhism plus an extreme emphasis on logic and reason. They seek to free themselves the darkness that comes before thought and action, live purely according to the logos and become self-moving souls.

But you can't just logic yourself into something. Should you help or hurt people, destroy the world or save it? You can't answer this or anything really with pure logic. Ultimately it depends on what preferences you have, what kind of desires. From the very beginning we see Kellhus making people follow him by explaining and free people from the darkness that makes them act the way they do, in a way making them more like the Dunyain. But that just makes them more dependent on him, more enslaved. Likewise Kellhus himself is, or at least claims to be, completely controlled by his mission. This makes it seem like the Dunyain rather than being the freest people, are actually the most enslaved. They completely controlled by their mission to the point that they kill themselves over having bad dreams.

I think the Unholy Consult actually explores this problem pretty well. Serwa calls Kelmomas a machine because everything he does is to make his mother love him. He argues that she is as much a slave as him, she just chooses to follow Kellhus instead. She argues that it's better to be a slave to the logos. This seems like the logic that the Inchoroi follows too. If we are all machines it makes sense to follow the greatest machine. For the inchoroi that is the Ark, for Serwa it's Kellhus.

Kellhus seems to want to make himself the most powerful machine possible? Having conquered the three sees and the consult he wants to wage war on the outside making himself more powerful than the god of gods.

Cnair on the other hand goes a different route, and embraces passion and irrationality. At one point Kellhus describes him as the only worldborn man who is awake, and he uses his knowledge of the darkness that comes before to make himself impossible to reason with. Becoming an inverse Dunyain of sorts. Is this an alternate path to becoming the self-moving soul? Or perhaps the Dunyain way is even a dead end and this is the way. Like Kellhus he is able to channel the devil, even without magic.

What do you guys think?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 12:41:34 pm by H »

Walter

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Posts: 171
    • View Profile
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2017, 12:47:08 pm »
There's a classic problem in rationality that you need a reason beyond rationality.  Like, optimizing for optimizations sake is just an endless circle.  If you aren't trying to DO anything, why bother becoming more capable?

The question of the Dunyain's 'self moving soul' is the same.  Where would it move?  Why?  If it is immune to circumstance and the pressure of the universe, then why would it do anything at all?  Presumably you could embed motives into it prior to its instantiation (see the Dunyain's imperatives, passed down through the ages), but those motives come from the Darkness.  The whole thing is a monstrous contradiction.

Koringhus finally gets this, at the end.  "Everything I taught you is a lie." The Judging Eye does not look kindly upon competence and mastery, only ignorance and innocence.  The Dunyain have labored for generations to damn themselves utterly.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2891
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2017, 12:54:26 pm »
Well, there is also the fact that Moe the Elder, the Inchoroi, Ark itself, and the Dûnyain all fail on account of the Outside.  Imagining that the world is essentially "machine-solvable" is a key flaw in all of their thinking, because, on Eärwa it isn't.  In a similar way Kellhus himself fails, because he imagines that what is beyond the limit of his seeing is not of consequence, even as he admits the presence of his perceptual horizon.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

TheCulminatingApe

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 274
    • View Profile
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2017, 07:03:14 pm »
Koringhus finally gets this, at the end.  "Everything I taught you is a lie." The Judging Eye does not look kindly upon competence and mastery, only ignorance and innocence.  The Dunyain have labored for generations to damn themselves utterly.

The final Koringhus chapter in TGO is fairly clear as to the wrongness of the Dunyain philosophy.  It is implied that the Dunyain path is a straight line, but Koringhus realises that 'the world possesses directions that the Dunyain could not fathom'.  The Dunyain are following 'step bound to step' and are slavishly yoked to this - something which corresponds quite closely with Akka's dreams of prisoners being fed to the No-God.  I think Koringhus also thinks about taking a 'sideways step'
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

generalguy

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2017, 01:37:56 am »
Dunyainism is ultra stoicism with emotional suppression rather than acceptance taken to its extreme so it breaks entirely when shown the outside which just sort of is without rhyme or reason

The inchoroi and the ark discovered this regarding damnation and are at their wits end because wit doesn't matter a whole lot against the very nature of reality


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5272
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2017, 01:10:01 pm »
The inchoroi and the ark discovered this regarding damnation and are at their wits end because wit doesn't matter a whole lot against the very nature of reality

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

+1 the bold. I think this is an apt description of what must be a theme of the series.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Dunkelheit

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 48
    • View Profile
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2017, 09:14:44 pm »
So we all agree that that Dunyain philosophy makes little sense in Earwa due to the Outside, but what if the Dunyain were on earth instead? There is still the is-ought problem. Should they summit to the greater machine? Does Cnairs take on it make more sense? Other suggestions?

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5272
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2017, 02:45:55 pm »
Hmm... I almost wonder if you should spark a new thread regarding Dunyain in our reality, Dunkelheit.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Dunkelheit

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 48
    • View Profile
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2017, 03:14:00 pm »
O'right

Simas Polchias

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Consult Fanboy
  • Posts: 187
    • View Profile
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2017, 07:11:30 pm »
From the very beginning we see Kellhus making people follow him by explaining and free people from the darkness that makes them act the way they do, in a way making them more like the Dunyain. But that just makes them more dependent on him, more enslaved.
That sounds like crafting youself into a god: build a new better world & simultaneously make the old world miserable and unbearable. It's all about recources flowing in the right direction, which is -you-.

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 953
    • View Profile
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2017, 09:54:21 pm »
Man I wish i knew enough to have a conversation about this, but it all just flies over my head.

Cüréthañ

  • *
  • Moderator Extraordinaire
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Pendulous Fallacy
  • Posts: 772
  • Wizard IRL
    • View Profile
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2017, 09:44:49 am »
Some good observations above. +1

Ultimately, it seems both the Dunyain and the adherents of the Inverse Fire pursue goals that defeat themselves.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Asmodeus van Yakshas

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2017, 10:07:34 pm »
There are many flaws to Dunyain philosophy. One however that strikes me as very glaring after TUC is "that what comes after cannot determine what comes before". I don't remember exactly where is is stated, but the Dunyain believe in strict causality, something that is not true on Eearwa.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5272
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2017, 01:01:50 pm »
There are many flaws to Dunyain philosophy. One however that strikes me as very glaring after TUC is "that what comes after cannot determine what comes before". I don't remember exactly where is is stated, but the Dunyain believe in strict causality, something that is not true on Eearwa.

Fairly sure you're recalling a Survivor section from TGO.

EDIT: Though, now that I'm thinking on it, that specific line should probably be attributed to Kellhus post-the Battle at Mengedda where he wrestles with the fact that what he "prophecised" that Anagke would be kind should Saubon punish the Shrial Knights.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 01:03:45 pm by Madness »
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer