[TUC Spoilers] Kellhus' Options

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Likaro

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« on: August 07, 2017, 06:26:21 pm »
I guess I'm interested to hear from others, did Kellhus have a chance to "Win" ? What exactly were the options available to him?

My contention is that he was screwed no matter what, that the enemies and problems against him were too much for anybody, even Super-Saiyan Dunyain, even a hybrid. level 99 warrior/mage/monk could deal with.

I put "win" in quotes above because we still really do not know what his true motives were. Maybe even he didn't know (Ajokli again).

All we can reasonably assume is that Kellhus does not want to burn in agony forever, so it seems avoiding or stopping damnation is the one goal we can infer he did want to achieve.

The other big question is, does Kellhus really want to help humanity or is he purely in it for himself? He does seem to be concerned with the general welfare and souls of humanity, in the broadest possible sense. In other words, yes Kellhus is an asshole- he will use and destroy thousands without a blink- if it saves millions. At least to my feeling on the character.

The other trouble with this discussion is Ajokli. For all we know, Kellhus might have died on the Circumfix without Ajokli's help. So in that regard we have to assume he's going to be involved in some way no matter what and every option open of Kellhus' is tainted with his presence.

Let's look at what some of his goals could have been:

A. Wipe out the Consult and end the resumption of the No-God.

Problems -

1. If it was just the Consult, it seems like Kellhus had a decent chance of winning the encounter. But it wasn't just the decrepit Consult he was dealing with...

The Dunsult combined with all those Skin Skies in the Golden Room means Kellhus is toast without some kind of trump card (Ajokli). I don't see how with his normal powers he could have survived unless he had a God on his side.  This brings us back to another problem (if Ajokli was out of the picture)- he really should not have gone in there alone. If Serwa, Kayutas and some other heavy hitters were with him maybe he could have pulled out the win.

Even if he had taken everyone out in the Golden Room, the Ordeal was still stranded thousands of miles in the barren North with no food and winter on the way. No matter what the Ordeal was going to die, but Kellhus at least could have translocated to safety. (Let's also not forget the effects on the Ordeal of eating Sranc, Man, and Irridiated man. Fallout tells me eating radiated food is not good for you)

2. There apparently was no way for him to recognize the threat of Kelmomas. This gets into the free will vs destiny stuff but assuming he had killed the child that probably ends the No God possibility right then and there, at least for a time. He wins in that outcome. If he doesn't kill Kelmomas it seems like he is fated to lose.

3. Kellhus knows about Topoi but somehow did not foresee Ajokli being very strong in Golgotterath and taking over? Unless he knew it would happen and was again, willing to take that chance?

4. Even if Kellhus prevails in the Golden Room, he still needs to do something about the Horde 2.0 which is right there, facing a hemmed in Golgotterath Ordeal...massive problem for him to deal with even with his abilities.

5. The big trouble with all permutations of this is that he is still damned at the end of it.

B. Kill the Consult and Reign in Hell

Problems

1. This would go with the side that argues Kellhus is an asshole that doesn't care about anyone else, and he is fine with condemning everyone else to the pit. Unless of course he thinks he can change the nature of Hell and the Outside from Within?

2. He is dealing with the God of Trickery and Deception. Ajokli is not likely to stay true to whatever "bargain" or treaty was struck.

3. Seems a very grim option and not really a "win" for anyone. Seems more like a nasty version of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" than anything else...turning the world into Hell is perhaps even worse than letting the Consult win. Then again maybe this was the best he could hope for, given the system?



C. Kill the Consult, then kill the Gods

We don't know enough about Earwan metaphysics to debate this one much. It's doubtful Kellhus has the power to kill a God (Or Gods). If he did so, then does reality collapse?

D. Join the Consult

1. Again, this comes back to what Kellhus really cares about , if anything. His stated values seem to be be dead set against the Consult so I don't see how he would allow himself to join them. He does appear to view their angle and past as abhorrent.

2. Still might be his best option to save himself and perhaps a fraction of humanity?


E. Who the hell knows?

This is the option that we don't know, that he had some other possibility available that we cannot fathom due to our limited knowledge.  I would add here that apparently the Splintered God cannot see what is really happening and seems blind to what it's other aspects are doing. Again, we don't know shit about this so its all very very vague. If Kellhus was truly an Inverse Prophet that brought knowledge of the living to the Gods, it sure seems like that did nothing to change things.

In other words, it doesn't seem possible that Earwa's deities are going to do and about face and stop being such raging dickheads.

____

At the end of the day, things are not good no matter what. Either slaughter humanity and become BFFs with rape aliens and ancient depraved lunatics, Run wild with a crazy 4 Horned brother and turn the living world into Hell, or at best achieve status quo and leave things as they are... and run the 95% chance you are going to Hell.



Damn, Earwa sucks.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 07:23:17 pm by Likaro »

The Sharmat

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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2017, 07:00:45 pm »
I'm not sure we have enough information to answer these questions. I will say that while I tend to think Kellhus was aiming for the Rule in Hell option, that doesn't mean he was purely in it for himself. As far as I can tell, his priorities were:

1. Him.

2. Esmenet. He actually does love her. Or at least, as close as a Dunyain can come to that.

3. A very distant third, humanity as a whole. But he's Dunyain so he's willing to make sacrifices. Maybe even including all of them, for the first two?

This might add some significance to the fact that Esmenet is not damned despite pretty much being prime ciphrang fodder going by the standards that are normally used, and the WLW wanting to kill her so Yatwer could feast. Maybe he got her out, somehow? Are we sure the deals with the pit purely concerned him?

Duskweaver

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« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2017, 07:15:27 pm »
I think C is the closest, except replace "kill the Gods" with "rewrite the Gods and the rules of the Outside so that the Gods serve Man rather than Man being food for the Gods". I've no real idea how he intended to do that, though. But the word 'Meta-Daimos' probably would have been involved. :P
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

Woden

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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2017, 07:22:44 pm »
First A (then who nows).

He deduced that his father would have joined forces with the Consult in the end (as in fact the dûnyain did), but he chose not to do that. If he wanted to join the Consult then why kill Möe Sr.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2017, 07:23:35 pm »
Well the Voice told him Moe would do that. Kellhus himself seems to reconsider years later.

Likaro

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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2017, 07:32:53 pm »
 So Kellhus is not Azor Ahai?!

Also, if Kellhus is truly dead and not going to play a big role in the next books.....I think we really really needed to get a Kellhus POV for the finale, that would have helped. But since Bakker went out of his way to get Malowebi in there as a POV we have to conclude it was for a reason.

Possibilities:

1. A Kellhus POV would tell us too much and/or his plan is not fully concluded even though he is dead
2. Bakker just wanted to fuck with us
3. Kellhus is dead just like Cnaiur was dead and he has a part still to play

Woden

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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2017, 07:36:21 pm »
3 to that and a little bit of 2.  ;D
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MSJ

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« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2017, 07:37:14 pm »
Quote from:  Duskweaver
I think C is the closest, except replace "kill the Gods" with "rewrite the Gods and the rules of the Outside so that the Gods serve Man rather than Man being food for the Gods". I've no real idea how he intended to do that, though. But the word 'Meta-Daimos' probably would have been involved. :P

Not Meta-Daimos, per TUC EG.

Quote
elhusioli—The daimos of excess. As per standard Kiünnat metaphysics, souls directly move other souls, impart the imprint of daimos upon another daimos. Some, such as terror or enthusiasm, are set apart for the dramatic nature of their effects.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Duskweaver

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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2017, 08:11:32 pm »
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elhusioli—The daimos of excess. As per standard Kiünnat metaphysics, souls directly move other souls, impart the imprint of daimos upon another daimos. Some, such as terror or enthusiasm, are set apart for the dramatic nature of their effects.
I'm not sure that means what you think it means. It's not talking about the (capital-D) Daimos, as in the branch of sorcery. It's talking about an emotion or principle that the Nonmen termed 'elhusioli' and which we would call 'excess'. There's a passage in TGO stating that the Nonmen of Viri only indulged in the daimos of 'elhusioli' during and after a hunt (and that this attracted the attention of Husyelt). The Nonmen seem to use (small-d) 'daimos' in the same way the Greeks did, to refer to a concept that can move one's soul (which in the Outside would be personified as an Agency) such as 'love', 'rage', 'sorrow' or whatever.

Incidentally, 'elhysioloi' means 'attractants' (for example, pheromones) in Greek.
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

The Sharmat

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« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2017, 08:13:09 pm »
2. Bakker just wanted to fuck with us
I'm thinking it's this.

MSJ

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« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2017, 08:13:57 pm »
Thanks Duskweaver! Thanks for destroying my theories. I love you!

ETA: in all seriousness, you may well be right, but, we're given no other definition of daimos.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 08:15:44 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SuJuroit

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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2017, 08:32:02 pm »
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First A (then who nows).

He deduced that his father would have joined forces with the Consult in the end (as in fact the dûnyain did), but he chose not to do that. If he wanted to join the Consult then why kill Möe Sr.

Right.  My take is that Kellhus really DID go insane on the Circumfix and thus chose the, "stop the Consult at all costs" path, which would otherwise make little sense to a Dunyain.  I'm convinced, based on the books and the answers RSB provided, that it was A all along.

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1. If it was just the Consult, it seems like Kellhus had a decent chance of winning the encounter. But it wasn't just the decrepit Consult he was dealing with...

The Dunsult combined with all those Skin Skies in the Golden Room means Kellhus is toast without some kind of trump card (Ajokli). I don't see how with his normal powers he could have survived unless he had a God on his side.  This brings us back to another problem (if Ajokli was out of the picture)- he really should not have gone in there alone. If Serwa, Kayutas and some other heavy hitters were with him maybe he could have pulled out the win.

Right, he needed the Godpower Ajokli could provide, which is why he "struck treaties with the Pit". 

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Even if he had taken everyone out in the Golden Room, the Ordeal was still stranded thousands of miles in the barren North with no food and winter on the way. No matter what the Ordeal was going to die, but Kellhus at least could have translocated to safety. (Let's also not forget the effects on the Ordeal of eating Sranc, Man, and Irridiated man. Fallout tells me eating radiated food is not good for you)

Yeah, the TTT collapsed at the Golden Room.  Presumably Kellhus could have escaped along with a tiny handful of survivors he may have valued, but that's about it.

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2. There apparently was no way for him to recognize the threat of Kelmomas. This gets into the free will vs destiny stuff but assuming he had killed the child that probably ends the No God possibility right then and there, at least for a time. He wins in that outcome. If he doesn't kill Kelmomas it seems like he is fated to lose.

I agree.  Once he failed to kill Kelmomas, there was no scenario that didn't end with Kelmomas becoming the No-God and Kellhus failing.  But COULD he have killed Kelmomas, or was it fated that Kelmomas become the No-God, period, full stop?

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3. Kellhus knows about Topoi but somehow did not foresee Ajokli being very strong in Golgotterath and taking over? Unless he knew it would happen and was again, willing to take that chance?

Between Kellhus knowing more than any other man and the information in the Decapitants glossary entry, I have to assume that Kellhus was aware of the possibility.  My best guess is that he either assumed he could prevent Ajokli from manifesting or that he figured that even if Ajokli did manifest, they shared the same goal of preventing Resumption, so yeah, it would suck for mankind (and probably Kellhus), but stopping Resumption justified any risk, any cost.

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4. Even if Kellhus prevails in the Golden Room, he still needs to do something about the Horde 2.0 which is right there, facing a hemmed in Golgotterath Ordeal...massive problem for him to deal with even with his abilities.

The TTT ended in the Golden Room.  If he succeeds in the Golden Room, the Horde 2.0 could devour the rest of the Ordeal and it would have been a success.  Stopping Resumption was the goal, not preserving the Ordeal.

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5. The big trouble with all permutations of this is that he is still damned at the end of it.

Maybe?  He did strike treaties with the Pit and all, and he saw himself descending as Hunger in the Outside, so perhaps he'd successfully avoided damnation?  The biggest question though is why take this path at all?  Best case he's saved humans from extinction, but consigned almost everybody alive to damnation, including uncountable numbers of future humans.  Hard to explain this decision on the part of Kellhus other than throwing up our hands and saying, "He went insane!".

Likaro

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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2017, 08:48:16 pm »
Quote
5. The big trouble with all permutations of this is that he is still damned at the end of it.

Maybe?  He did strike treaties with the Pit and all, and he saw himself descending as Hunger in the Outside, so perhaps he'd successfully avoided damnation?  The biggest question though is why take this path at all?  Best case he's saved humans from extinction, but consigned almost everybody alive to damnation, including uncountable numbers of future humans.  Hard to explain this decision on the part of Kellhus other than throwing up our hands and saying, "He went insane!".

I think the "descending as a Hunger" line is Ajokli talking. It just doesn't seem like a thing Kellhus would say. He is not power mad and he is not a passionate person that would be interested in that, the logos is still his main principle.

At least I think.

[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 03:41:55 pm by Madness »

Woden

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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2017, 08:52:40 pm »
If Kellhus had mastered the Golden Room I think he would have succeeded with the Horde. The Great Ordeal was in decent good defensive position (with lots of sorcerers alive) and without No-God present would have faced the Horde with good prospects of survival. It was the overwhelming No-God intervention and the subsequent disarray and rout (fly, you fools) what destroyed any possibility of the ordealmen to survive.
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.

Duskweaver

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« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2017, 08:54:30 pm »
Thanks Duskweaver! Thanks for destroying my theories. I love you!
If it helps, I did feel bad about it. ;)

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ETA: in all seriousness, you may well be right, but, we're given no other definition of daimos.

Read the passage in TGO where 'elhusioli' is mentioned. It's clearly not referring to sorcery:

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Only on the hunt and in the subsequent feast did the Viroi yield to elhusioli, the Nonman daimos of excess. Their expeditions were things of song and legend, so much so that Hûsyelt, the Dark Hunter, was said to hunt them from time to time. The Hoar-Pelt, the great white bear-skin the Nonmen Kings of Viri wore in a crown’s stead, was held to be a gift of the jealous and mercurial God.
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."