[TUC Spoilers] Kellhus' Options

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MSJ

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« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2017, 10:03:05 pm »
I'll concede...for now. ;)
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SuJuroit

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« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2017, 02:02:02 pm »
Quote
I think the "descending as a Hunger" line is Ajokli talking. It just doesn't seem like a thing Kellhus would say. He is not power mad and he is not a passionate person that would be interested in that, the logos is still his main principle.

I have to disagree with this one.  Kellhus, and all the Dunyain, seek power almost compulsively because without power they are at the mercy of events and other people; they cannot Come Before and thus cannot achieve the Absolute.  Every single Dunyain we see in the books seeks and amasses as much power as possible.  Moenghus is the man behind the man in Kian, Kellhus winds up ruling the entire Three Seas and is worshipped like a god, the Mutilated took over the Consult (or attempted to depending on your Shae theories), even Koringhus was working to dominate Akka and Mimara before he ran into the Judging Eye.  With every breath, they war against circumstance.

Likaro

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« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2017, 03:07:07 pm »
Well....there is seeking power to achieve the absolute... and then there is the lust/passion/mad Roman emperor lust for power which I think are two different things. Kellhus and Big Moe seized power not to cackle with glee, torment the smallfolk and gloat, but to do what they felt they had to do. In other words, they don't "enjoy" the dominance aspect of power.

To me, being a Ciphrang and chomping souls is related to a passion/lust to dominate and cause misery, and to me that doesn't fit in with Kellhus' personality or aims. He doesn't do things to be petty, vindictive,  or take personal satisfaction in hurting people.


Just seems like "I will descend as a hunger" is a strange line for a man almost utterly devoid of passions and hungers

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« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2017, 03:13:51 pm »
I think the point Bakker made in writing that whole part ambiguously is that there is almost no way to tell where Kellhus ends and Ajokli begins.  They are the same thing at that moment, so that line is said by both of them really.  I think it is only at the end that we see full-on Ajokli speaking, having completely overpowered Kellhus.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

SuJuroit

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« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2017, 03:49:44 pm »
I think the point Bakker made in writing that whole part ambiguously is that there is almost no way to tell where Kellhus ends and Ajokli begins.  They are the same thing at that moment, so that line is said by both of them really.  I think it is only at the end that we see full-on Ajokli speaking, having completely overpowered Kellhus.

I agree.  Remember Nil'Giccas' scene with Akka at the end of WLW about "becoming"? 

H

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« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2017, 05:05:46 pm »
I think the point Bakker made in writing that whole part ambiguously is that there is almost no way to tell where Kellhus ends and Ajokli begins.  They are the same thing at that moment, so that line is said by both of them really.  I think it is only at the end that we see full-on Ajokli speaking, having completely overpowered Kellhus.

I agree.  Remember Nil'Giccas' scene with Akka at the end of WLW about "becoming"? 

Indeed, I made a whole thread about (mainly) it, I should probably revisit it.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

SuJuroit

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« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2017, 05:29:03 pm »
I think the point Bakker made in writing that whole part ambiguously is that there is almost no way to tell where Kellhus ends and Ajokli begins.  They are the same thing at that moment, so that line is said by both of them really.  I think it is only at the end that we see full-on Ajokli speaking, having completely overpowered Kellhus.

I agree.  Remember Nil'Giccas' scene with Akka at the end of WLW about "becoming"? 

Indeed, I made a whole thread about (mainly) it, I should probably revisit it.

That was a really good post.  Also, RSB's writing in that scene with Akka and Cleric is simply amazing.  Powerful stuff.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2017, 11:16:09 pm »
The Dunsult combined with all those Skin Skies in the Golden Room means Kellhus is toast without some kind of trump card (Ajokli). I don't see how with his normal powers he could have survived unless he had a God on his side.  This brings us back to another problem (if Ajokli was out of the picture)- he really should not have gone in there alone. If Serwa, Kayutas and some other heavy hitters were with him maybe he could have pulled out the win.

I'm starting to believe the idea (sorry, can't remember who first brought it up in another thread) that it was in fact part of the plan to have Kayûtas and Serwa in the Golden Room (and maybe Saccarees as well?). They were delayed and ultimately unable to get there at all because of Skuthula - who knows if having them there would have turned the tide in Kellhus' favour?
Kelmomas would have still been a problem, though. It's not that I think Kayûtas and/or Serwa would have been able to deal with him (I'm sure they would) but if he was always destined to become the No-God, could that even have been avoided at all?
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2017, 12:14:26 am »
He's destined to be the No-God because it wasn't avoided. He always willn't not be the No-God. What's so hard about nonlinear four dimensional tenses to understand, geez?

Kellhus got suckered into the Golden Room pretty effectively if the plan was to have all of them there. I mean, how were they all supposed to scale the Upright horn that fast even without Skuthula there?

Baztek

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« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2017, 02:10:35 am »
It's just so weird for me for Kellhus to get chummy with the closest the Bakkerverse has to a Satan, but at the same time it was only Ajokli who has some presentiment of the No-God threat, right?

And where does Kellhus wanting to save the world come from anyways? What honestly does he care?

Since the dunyain seek the absolute above all, was everything just an elaborate suicide a la Sandman? Explains why Ajokli can't find him, because he's found oblivion/the absolute. definitely an out there theory though

The Sharmat

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« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2017, 02:27:10 am »
Well after he broke on the Circumfix, Kellhus, for a time at least, seemed to truly believe the lies he'd spun around himself. Later on, he might want to save it for his wife's sake.

H

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« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2017, 12:26:45 pm »
Well after he broke on the Circumfix, Kellhus, for a time at least, seemed to truly believe the lies he'd spun around himself. Later on, he might want to save it for his wife's sake.

I am sort of coming around to the idea that Kellhus himself doesn't actually know why he spared Esmenet, or Kelmomas for that matter.  Part of his 'madness' is to not really knowing just how insane he is.  The fact that Ajokli is also working his way into Kellhus even before the Golden Room only further compounds the issue, because now we actually have three agencies at work: the Darkness (i.e. circumstance/vestigial emotions), Kellhus' rational mind (the Logos/Thousandfold Thought) and Ajokli.

In PoN, it's pretty clear that the Logos is ascendant in Kellhus, but for a few brief moments.  Post-Unification though, I think Ajokli begins to come more to the fore and, to go back to Akka's analogy that I quoted before, the more Ajokli pries open Kellhus soul, the more of the Darkness, the Outside, the madness seeps in.  But it's not just Ajokli at play too, because the Thought has Kellhus pitched on a soul-harrowing course as well, lending itself directly to the other two factors rise.

I feel like when Kellhus says he will descend like a hunger, that is both Kellhus and Ajokli at that moment.  As Sorweel experienced when he had the Amiolas on, the line between one soul and the other can be blurry when they are intermixed.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Khaine

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« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2017, 11:37:53 am »
There's a passage in TGO stating that the Nonmen of Viri only indulged in the daimos of 'elhusioli' during and after a hunt (and that this attracted the attention of Husyelt). The Nonmen seem to use (small-d) 'daimos' in the same way the Greeks did, to refer to a concept that can move one's soul (which in the Outside would be personified as an Agency) such as 'love', 'rage', 'sorrow' or whatever.

Incidentally, 'elhysioloi' means 'attractants' (for example, pheromones) in Greek.

Which Greek word you have in mind, because when transcribed in Latin letters makes no sense to me.

Incidentally the word daemon originally did not have negative connotations. Aristotle spoke of eudaimonia as the natural telos of humankind. 

 I think it was in the Church / Christian tradition that the word daemon acquires its negative meaning. 
Knowing was the foundation of ignorance. To think that one *knew* was to become utterly blind to the unknown.

R. Scott Baker, The White Luck Warrior, chapter 12.

ἕν οἶδα, ὅτι οὐδέν οἶδα

generalguy

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« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2017, 12:45:32 pm »
It would have been really nice if there were some actual textual evidence of this prior to TUC that wasnt just some ambiguously post hoc rationalizations

4-d storytelling rarely works tbh and I don't think bakker is a good enough author to pull it off


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Duskweaver

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« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2017, 02:41:10 pm »
Which Greek word you have in mind, because when transcribed in Latin letters makes no sense to me.
'ελκυσιολοι', which admittedly would normally be written as 'elkusioloi' in Latinised form. But IIRC kappa in (some dialects of?) Ancient Greek can be transliterated as 'h'? I briefly studied Greek 20 years ago, but my knowledge is extremely hazy by now...
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