The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: Cuttlefish on July 10, 2017, 10:31:41 pm
-
I wasn't sure where precisely to put this thread, but this felt like as good a place as any.
I think plenty of people have taken a different look to fantasy genre after Bakker, so I'm not exactly asking about that. What I'm asking about is, how has reading the Second Apocalypse novels influenced your life directly?
For me, I can give two examples:
I'm a law student, whose main interest lies in positive law. So philosophy of law classes didn't ever do much to interest me, particularly because I had a dry, old teacher. He was the kind of teacher who seemed to grade better, the more you wrote, the better grade he gave. So, to make the paper fuller, and generally sound like I have any idea what I'm talking about, I've more than once wrote Dunyain axioms in his exams, most notably "what comes before determines what comes after". Funnily enough, I've gotten good grades with little to no study, so the creative ways in which I managed to bullshit seemed to work!
Anyway, another, more substanial example would be the way the books influenced my general outlook on life. Before reading them, I was a believer in free will for vanity's sake, if nothing else. The Dunyain description of the worldborn, as being slave to their urges and outside influences without ever realizing it, made a lot of sense to me. I think I've become something of a determinist as a consequence of this.
-
Many ways.
Mainly, influences on how I think. And how I think about my thinking. And thinking about how other people think. And thinking about those thoughts...
Perspective is everything, the dangers of certainty, and how each person believes absolutely that their perspective is correct beyond all others.
Even with these thoughts its so easy to fall into that trap, but at least now I feel like I can sometimes see beyond my own ego from time to time. :)
-
A different way of looking at the people and their behaviour in general.
Last Saturday, something different happened though and it's a bit hard for me to share.
I had an emotional breakdown after a day at a metal festival and pierced the veil hiding what has been determining a large part of my social behaviour since I was little. I think I get why the choice of words is "The darkness that comes before ". It's not the happy emotions that have determined these: It's mostly fear. It's a dark place full of darkest memories and fears that I never have a second thought, and that I never knew were there. So generally it feels like the explanations we got from the various POVs in TGO are as accurate as can be. Ironically since then, every social interaction triggers doubt about why I act in a way a bit like Cnaiur and Akka about Kellhus.
Edit: The scary part is that nobody understands what you're going through and that you're all alone in the dark... Again, the ironic comparison with Akka and Cnaiur, and in a way Sorweel... Which does not feel like a coincidence either.
-
Edit: The scary part is that nobody understands what you're going through and that you're all alone in the dark... Again, the ironic comparison with Akka and Cnaiur, and in a way Sorweel... Which does not feel like a coincidence either.
Well, sort of yes to the former, but no to the latter.
While no one can know exactly what it is you face, you aren't actually alone, it only feels that way.
"The darkness of the No-God is not all-encompassing. The Gods see us yet, dear friend."
If you need anything, or just want to talk, feel free to message me.
-
Got me to read a lot of popular books on the mind.
-
...
Edit: The scary part is that nobody understands what you're going through and that you're all alone in the dark... Again, the ironic comparison with Akka and Cnaiur, and in a way Sorweel... Which does not feel like a coincidence either.
We're an interesting community of vagabonds, you never know what experiences you may share - in part or in whole - with someone here. Feel free to reach out.
-
Yeah until I talked about my suicidal thoughts when i was in my 20's and crippling depression, i thought no one else had them really. Turned out 2 of my friends had the same thing going on and one of them already had lots of advice on how to go about it.
Me and one of my best friends were on the same anti-anxiety medication, and it took us 4 months to find out cause we didn't talk about it.
-
...
Edit: The scary part is that nobody understands what you're going through and that you're all alone in the dark... Again, the ironic comparison with Akka and Cnaiur, and in a way Sorweel... Which does not feel like a coincidence either.
We're an interesting community of vagabonds, you never know what experiences you may share - in part or in whole - with someone here. Feel free to reach out.
Concur. Though I think I'm the only straight up vagabond ;).
-
In my job I try a pseudodunyain train of thought and it usually works. So the saga has improved my daily life, lol.
Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk
-
Thank you all for the very supportive replies. Even though it's rough unsuspectingly opening a closet and finding yourself confronted with ghosts from the past, I'm okay and non-suicidal :) I just need to find out how to deal with this.
The fact that the books helped me recognize the situation is I think the biggest way they have impacted my life, I suppose.
That and the philosophies within the book make you think, and really evaluate other lines of thinking instead of just vaguely defining an idea.
In response to H about my remark about Sorweel: You can't get much more alone in the dark than Sorweel right before Oirunas "kills" him. He "dies" through the Amiolas, basically alone without anyone including the gods setting him. ;)
-
In response to H about my remark about Sorweel: You can't get much more alone in the dark than Sorweel right before Oirunas "kills" him. He "dies" through the Amiolas, basically alone without anyone including the gods setting him. ;)
Indeed, that was the first thing I thought of, but there wasn't a catchy quote I could find there, haha.
-
While I have no plans of murdering my boss because he’s a skinspy ( which he clearly is ), the books have yielded me great joy and have significantly impacted my thinking/awareness ( in my perception, for the better ). I have slowed down my exercises in self-reflection and take more time to think about what is going on and what other people are like without judging them – we all suffer from not knowing where our thoughts originate which yields a powerful path for us to connect and thrive together, share our wonder with each other.
-
I'm more conscious about behavior and what it reveals, although this eye-opener was initiated when reading Dune.
-
I'm more conscious about behavior and what it reveals, although this eye-opener was initiated when reading Dune.
Same - my "path" to greater awareness of reality began with Herbert's works.
-
I'm more conscious about behavior and what it reveals, although this eye-opener was initiated when reading Dune.
Same - my "path" to greater awareness of reality began with Herbert's works.
I feel like I have missed out on something reading Herbert after Bakker :(
-
I'm more conscious about behavior and what it reveals, although this eye-opener was initiated when reading Dune.
Same - my "path" to greater awareness of reality began with Herbert's works.
Yes - the "correct" order is Herbert, then Bakker ( a more complete progression is Herbert -> Simmons -> Bakker )
-
I'm more conscious about behavior and what it reveals, although this eye-opener was initiated when reading Dune.
Same - my "path" to greater awareness of reality began with Herbert's works.
Yes - the "correct" order is Herbert, then Bakker ( a more complete progression is Herbert -> Simmons -> Bakker )
Well, I at least read herbert before Simmons lol, but only just barely.
-
Yes - the "correct" order is Herbert, then Bakker ( a more complete progression is Herbert -> Simmons -> Bakker )
That's an interesting progression, Tao.
-
I'm more conscious about behavior and what it reveals, although this eye-opener was initiated when reading Dune.
Same - my "path" to greater awareness of reality began with Herbert's works.
I feel like I have missed out on something reading Herbert after Bakker :(
You didn't :) Bakker is the superior writer.
As for the series influence on me, it largely affected my path to becoming an emotionless robot.
-
I strongly reccomend reading the classic History of the Crusades and The fall of Constantinople of sir Steven Runciman - direct or indirect influences for at least the first trilogy.
-
I'm more conscious about behavior and what it reveals, although this eye-opener was initiated when reading Dune.
Same - my "path" to greater awareness of reality began with Herbert's works.
I feel like I have missed out on something reading Herbert after Bakker :(
You didn't :) Bakker is the superior writer.
As for the series influence on me, it largely affected my path to becoming an emotionless robot.
He's certainly a different writer, but Herbert and Simmons are masterful in their turn.
It saddens me you feel that way. Might I ask why you feel Bakker/TSA makes you feel emotionless?
-
It saddens me you feel that way. Might I ask why you feel Bakker/TSA makes you feel emotionless?
Emotions are mostly bullshit, don't be sad W.
Perhaps we should congratulate Redeagl on becoming a self-moving soul, or at least trying to be so.
-
It saddens me you feel that way. Might I ask why you feel Bakker/TSA makes you feel emotionless?
Emotions are mostly bullshit, don't be sad W.
Perhaps we should congratulate Redeagl on becoming a self-moving soul, or at least trying to be so.
:(
-
:(
Well, there is always a manner of degrees. Hyperbole aside, I think we (humans) should all really strive to be less emotional in general though.
-
:(
Well, there is always a manner of degrees. Hyperbole aside, I think we (humans) should all really strive to be less emotional in general though.
Indeed recognizing (to stay on track with the subject) that emotional responses arise in part due to the heuristic nature of our brains processes, and using that recognition to identify and circumvent overly emotional responses to further our ability to communicate, is an outcome I can get behind. And, thanks to TSA and Bakker, I have at least the language to understand what I just said - if not a complete scientific understand of it as piece of a greater whole.
That said, being emotionless implies, to me, more of an inability to identify at all what emotions are, which leads to a greater breakdown in communication, and therefore, is a non-ideal result - until a whole of society operates on this same level, in which case it becomes more vestigial than otherwise :) .
-
:(
Well, there is always a manner of degrees. Hyperbole aside, I think we (humans) should all really strive to be less emotional in general though.
Indeed recognizing (to stay on track with the subject) that emotional responses arise in part due to the heuristic nature of our brains processes, and using that recognition to identify and circumvent overly emotional responses to further our ability to communicate, is an outcome I can get behind. And, thanks to TSA and Bakker, I have at least the language to understand what I just said - if not a complete scientific understand of it as piece of a greater whole.
That said, being emotionless implies, to me, more of an inability to identify at all what emotions are, which leads to a greater breakdown in communication, and therefore, is a non-ideal result - until a whole of society operates on this same level, in which case it becomes more vestigial than otherwise :) .
It's funny, I've lately started to repeat the mantra "It arises from the passions" inside my head to calm myself when something annoys/disgusts me.
-
It's funny, I've lately started to repeat the mantra "It arises from the passions" inside my head to calm myself when something annoys/disgusts me.
But, even then, your not recognizing your "darkness" at you're inability to control you're feelings when they don't conform to the world around you...
You say it something you heard that is annoying/disgusting. But, what are those feeling but the darkness that rises within you? Legion. Its why I don't even begin to try and understand it. You guys have a field day...or, a years worth of tumbling down the dark hole that's philosophy. ;)
-
It's funny, I've lately started to repeat the mantra "It arises from the passions" inside my head to calm myself when something annoys/disgusts me.
But, even then, your not recognizing your "darkness" at you're inability to control you're feelings when they don't conform to the world around you...
You say it something you heard that is annoying/disgusting. But, what are those feeling but the darkness that rises within you? Legion. Its why I don't even begin to try and understand it. You guys have a field day...or, a years worth of tumbling down the dark hole that's philosophy. ;)
What would you need philosophy for? You can just e.g. take Newton's laws and extrapolate. Just saved yourself years of reading there 8)
-
It's funny, I've lately started to repeat the mantra "It arises from the passions" inside my head to calm myself when something annoys/disgusts me.
But, even then, your not recognizing your "darkness" at you're inability to control you're feelings when they don't conform to the world around you...
You say it something you heard that is annoying/disgusting. But, what are those feeling but the darkness that rises within you? Legion. Its why I don't even begin to try and understand it. You guys have a field day...or, a years worth of tumbling down the dark hole that's philosophy. ;)
I always thought that argument strange. Without those feelings, is there any you?
-
It's funny, I've lately started to repeat the mantra "It arises from the passions" inside my head to calm myself when something annoys/disgusts me.
But, even then, your not recognizing your "darkness" at you're inability to control you're feelings when they don't conform to the world around you...
You say it something you heard that is annoying/disgusting. But, what are those feeling but the darkness that rises within you? Legion. Its why I don't even begin to try and understand it. You guys have a field day...or, a years worth of tumbling down the dark hole that's philosophy. ;)
I always thought that argument strange. Without those feelings, is there any you?
I was gonna say ... aren't emotions what makes it fun to be a human? When my father died, I thanked God for blessing me with the kind of father whose absence would make me feel so awful ... made me feel so alive, so cool to feel so deeply ... to use Bakker language, to live so hot.
-
I was gonna say ... aren't emotions what makes it fun to be a human? When my father died, I thanked God for blessing me with the kind of father whose absence would make me feel so awful ... made me feel so alive, so cool to feel so deeply ... to use Bakker language, to live so hot.
Exactly. Its was I addressed tleilaxu. Because someone says or does that doesn't conform to your worldview, doesn't mean "its the passions that arise from the darkness". Not to me, anyway. They just have a different worldview or what have you. You can blame for feeling annoyed as much as the person your annoyed with. Why can't you control your emotions????
But, emotions are what make us human. And, most opinions are formed off of emotions on a certain subject. Trying to relegate them to "the darkness" is just philosophical nonsense to me. We are what we are. Made and moulded by experience, each and everyone of us different from another. Blaming the darkness, when you can't control your darkness, shows the fallacy of the whole argument, to me.
-
But, emotions are what make us human. And, most opinions are formed off of emotions on a certain subject. Trying to relegate them to "the darkness" is just philosophical nonsense to me. We are what we are. Made and moulded by experience, each and everyone of us different from another. Blaming the darkness, when you can't control your darkness, shows the fallacy of the whole argument, to me.
I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing it like this. I also think this quite possibly might be what Bakker is trying to say with that whole "the darkness that comes before" matter.
Though, of course, I can't be certain.
-
What would you need philosophy for? You can just e.g. take Newton's laws and extrapolate. Just saved yourself years of reading there 8)
Not saving myself anytime at all. I feel its all just ways to explain emotion and why you see the world the way you see it. And, i don't need a philosopher or Newton to tell me those things. I know why I feel certain ways and act this way or that. From my experiences in life that have made me who I am today. Its not that complicated to me. Could I use some of that to make myself a better person? Sure. But, I wouldn't use it to explain away someone's opinion that doesn't conform to mine.
-
I've honestly lost the plot here xd. Not sure what exactly we're talking about.
-
I've honestly lost the plot here xd. Not sure what exactly we're talking about.
I "think" we're discussing the difference between the wisdom/benefits of self-control with the folly of all out self-control, sporting zero emotion dousing your humanity.
-
I've honestly lost the plot here xd. Not sure what exactly we're talking about.
I "think" we're discussing the difference between the wisdom/benefits of self-control with the folly of all out self-control, sporting zero emotion dousing your humanity.
Well, I guess I sort of "started" this with my "less emotional" comment. Honestly, it was flippant and so it really failed to convey what I meant. I don't think we should really strive to be "emotionless" though. What I meant by emotional was, controlled by emotion. And, again, it certainly is a manner of degrees. On the one hand, it certainly would be miserable to be completely controlled by emotion and on the other, terrible to have emotion not control one at all.
My idea of "less emotional" (and I had used it to possibly describe Kellhus in the past) is to be emotion-considering, rather than emotion-driven.
-
Right. My point was basically that I agree with that and the mentioned mantra is useful for calming myself so I can analyze/exploit the situation intellectually instead of reacting with an emotional outburst à la "you're a phagget".
All this being-human-emotion talk is too confusing for me.
-
Right. My point was basically that I agree with that and the mentioned mantra is useful for calming myself so I can analyze/exploit the situation intellectually instead of reacting with an emotional outburst à la "you're a phagget".
All this being-human-emotion talk is too confusing for me.
Cold calculation can be quite handy, but sometimes you need that boiling water to animate you into action
-
Right. My point was basically that I agree with that and the mentioned mantra is useful for calming myself so I can analyze/exploit the situation intellectually instead of reacting with an emotional outburst à la "you're a phagget".
All this being-human-emotion talk is too confusing for me.
Cold calculation can be quite handy, but sometimes you need that boiling water to animate you into action
Yes we probably do need some emotion.