The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: locke on April 30, 2013, 11:13:01 pm
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Anyone ever thought that The Circuit of Watcher and Watched that underwrites all existence is also reflected in small by Seswatha and Achamian. Seswatha is always 'watching' the mandate sorcerers to whom he is attached, and they are in turn watched by him. This relationship flips in the dreams, when Seswatha becomes the Watched and the Mandate individual becomes the watcher.
Two men, like a circle and its shadow.
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Warrior Prophet: The Prince of Nothing, Book Two (Kindle Location 8294). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
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This is interesting. I'd never thought about this before, but could Seswatha's Heart be another form of soul transfer similar to Shae's "pit bent into a circle" shenanigans? It's obvious some fragment of Seswatha's consciousness continues to exist in Mandate Schoolmen.
My guess is that Seswatha and Nau-cayuti stumbled into the Golden Room during their foray into Golgotterath, saw the Inverse Fire, which scared them seven shades of shitless, and caused Seswatha to consider preserving his soul through the ages. Of course, the question is, what was his primary motive? Was he so selfless that the unfortunate connotations associated with soul preservation were a small price to pay to keep the memory of the Apocalypse alive, or was saving his soul the real goal and he needed an ostensibly virtuous cause to get away with it?
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If he did preserve his soul, then Akka is the final mandate schoolman - the final, non distributed resting place of Ses's soul.
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What makes akka the final resting place? The Grasping has continued after akka's departure, if not with the Mandate (since we don't know if they have any new members I guess) but for sure with the Witches. There is a whole circuit of people who have absorbed some portion if Seswatha.
BTW it must be something strange to be thrust into the body of the opposite gender ever night and wake up the opposite again every morning. Wonder if that affects the dreams and their effect of the dreamer.
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I can't remember anything in regard whether the witches are required to do the grasping? Kellhus just figures out how to do stuff with the gnosis, sans grasping, and is quite capable of teaching. Oh, particularly when just conveniently there is no mandate around to get upset at such...
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If he did preserve his soul, then Akka is the final mandate schoolman - the final, non distributed resting place of Ses's soul.
That's awesome! Made me think that Akka's going to find another mummified heart in the 1000 1000 halls and get a whole new data transfer. Seswatha and X vie for the driver's seat. :P
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Must have missed this months ago somehow. Late response lol:
I can't remember anything in regard whether the witches are required to do the grasping? Kellhus just figures out how to do stuff with the gnosis, sans grasping, and is quite capable of teaching.
The text states, in the very least, that Kellhus is the only Gnostic sorcerer that does not dream the Dreams. I don't know if it explicitly states that the Witches go through The Grasping or not, but I can't think of any explanation for them all Dreaming. Its a pretty safe assumption that they do indeed go through the ceremony.
Oh, particularly when just conveniently there is no mandate around to get upset at such...
At what point are there not many Mandati? Kellhus, or someone else, had to have been teaching the Swayali years before the Ordeal left for Golgotterath, so there would have been plenty of Mandati to complain. I'm also pretty sure the text also points this out directly, though I could just be remembering the general grumblings of the public about Witches.
If you are referring to the latter battle, well, at that point the Swayali already are teaching themselves and any dissenting opinions are not only irrelevant, but probably had been squashed years and years before.
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I wonder what it's like for Kellhus to communicate with Mandati via dreams? They are all stuck in the woe and ruin of the first apocalypse and he's coming from where? What's a mad Dunyain dream space like? Can he learn juicy details by walking their dreams?
Must he be carried in an armored car when he's dreaming and the host is on the march? How vulnerable is he in that state? Would there be any better place to snare a Dunyain because of a dreams ability to awaken passion--like Aurang did?
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I wonder what it's like for Kellhus to communicate with Mandati via dreams? They are all stuck in the woe and ruin of the first apocalypse and he's coming from where? What's a mad Dunyain dream space like? Can he learn juicy details by walking their dreams?
Did not think of that. He probably should be able to, or at least he has tried.
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I think Esmi believes that he talks to Mandati in dreams, somewhere in the first third of the Judging Eye, maybe?
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I think Esmi believes that he talks to Mandati in dreams, somewhere in the first third of the Judging Eye, maybe?
Being one of the only means of distance communication, he most certainly does. What we do not know is if he can see the dreams of the Mandati, and if he can be a voyeur with/without the observee knowing.
If he can indeed watch them without himself being seen, then it is possible he has been following Akka's dreams, and knew he would head to the Coffers, thus positioning the Skin Eaters/Cleric in Morrow.
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If kellhus has freedom to roam in and out of dreams, I wonder if he could influence them.
Would be interesting if Akkas entire arc in AE is conditioned by his dreams.
Ses + Kel in a partnership of some sort? After all - we know that the Seswatha Humoncolous agreed to teach Kellhus the Gnosis, or at the very least was whelmed into doing so. (IIRC - please clarify if not)
What does everyone think about that?
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I was thinking about that as well, but wanted to separate the idea of manipulating dreams from seeing other's dreams. It is a fact that other Mandati can see what their brethren are dreaming. I think it is a small leap to concluding that any schoolman calling another should be able to at least watch the dreamer. The rest is pretty speculative.
We know, from Akka's POV, that he was at least able to pull his contact out of the dreaming state, and this seems like a form of dream manipulation. Extend that a bit farther, it might be possible for someone like Kellhus to manipulate one's dreams so subtly that the dreamer didn't notice, but this seems like a slightly larger leap of faith. But hey, it sounds like a fun rabbit hole to jump into. Lets take the plunge:
Akka's more unique but simple dreams, like Seswatha stubbing his toe over and over again for the whole night, could have been Kellhus testing this power of dream manipulation. He started with something simple, tested to see if it worked without Akka realizing he was being manipulated, then slowly transformed his dreams, taking greater and greater control.
Eventually, he made up the entire scene with Celmomas and Seswatha by the fire and inserted "Ishual" and laid the groundwork for the Map and The Coffers. Once Akka was convinced that was where he needed to go, Kellhus placed the Skin eaters at Morrow, and made sure Akka had just enough resources to get to the Ishual map but also so few that everyone else dies. Wouldn't anyone else knowing Kellhus' origins after all.
On a separate tangent:
As you mentioned, we know that Kellhus did something in Akka's head that allowed him to teach the gnosis to Kellhus. Lets assume that something was Kellhus interacting Seswatha. In this crackpot, then Kellhus could easily plot with Seswatha to transform Achamian's dreams, slowly at first but eventually drastically altering them, eventually leading Akka down the path his entire story arc has taken since that point forward.
Basically the same as above I guess, though with Seswatha as a co-conspirator.
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@ Wilshire - What you said about subtle dream manipulation, it made me think of that sermon by Cleric (at Fatwall?) where he criticized humans for thinking that revelation was in small things (I think he looked right at Akka just after). To me, it seemed like Cleric was saying "that dream where Seswatha stubbed his toe, you think it means something, but it doesn't."
@ SilentRoamer - I love the idea of Kellhus partnering with Seswatha! That's a conversation we must must must have! Possibly:
S: You have arrived.
K: All is according to plan.
S: I will initiate the next phase.
K: And I will learn the gnosis.
Maybe Kellhus can use Seswatha's heart to influence all the dreams/dreamers. Maybe he did something to the heart shortly after TTT and he only wants people who have touched it after that date. Hence, he allows the school of Mandate to be destroyed, but plans on using the Witches.
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@ Wilshire - What you said about subtle dream manipulation, it made me think of that sermon by Cleric (at Fatwall?) where he criticized humans for thinking that revelation was in small things (I think he looked right at Akka just after). To me, it seemed like Cleric was saying "that dream where Seswatha stubbed his toe, you think it means something, but it doesn't."
Yeah there is something strange going on there. I believe you could be right.
Maybe Kellhus can use Seswatha's heart to influence all the dreams/dreamers. Maybe he did something to the heart shortly after TTT and he only wants people who have touched it after that date. Hence, he allows the school of Mandate to be destroyed, but plans on using the Witches.
All the dreamers, or one at a time ;). Seems like its possible. He certainly could convince the Mandate to allow him to see the heart, and be alone with it, in a way that no other would be trusted.
btw, if that is true (letting the mandate die), then that might suggest long term plans. Why would he bother setting up something like that, so near the final goal, if he didn't think he could win (or accomplish whatever goal he might have) and still maintain some influence in the world. Kellhus playing the long game.
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I didn't think about it until you said so, but yeah, Kellhus could be alone with Seswatha's heart...would they converse??? That would be cool. The heart might know things that the individual presences didn't know, like if the heart gave each Mandati a customized version, refraining from pouring all the secrets into just one.
It would be cool if we find out that Mandati souls neither go back to heaven or hell when they die--they join the heart and add their strength to it! Seswatha sowed the seed for a megaweapon that would be ready just in time for Mog's return! Seswatha's Heart is the new Heron Spear!!!
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Wow thats a new idea. What if the heard absorbs so many souls it becomes the No-God :P. How ironic.
Would more souls make more powerful sorcery? Probably a question for the Sorcery topic though.
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What if Kellhus acts as a substitute for Seswatha's heart for all new Gnostic Sorcerers?
Instead of them grasping Ses' heart, they grasp for "Kellhus" somehow.
He can then easily have them dream whatever it is that he wants, possibly doing the same to the Mandati who have already grasped?
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I would certainly assume that anything any worldborn man could do, Kell could do better, including imbuing another person with a direct link to a deliberate story through sorcerous means.
But I think he has enough of a grip over the beliefs of Earwa that such effort would be redundant. Being a sorcerer-prophet - forgiving, as far as everyone knows, the sin of speaking with the God's voice - validates the gnostics beyond anything they've experienced since the First Apocalypse.
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It maybe that the grasping is a form of compulsion. Perhaps this will allow Kellhus to control them similar to the way Mog controls the sranc. This would be a nice boost to multiple utteral strings.
Problem: if that ^ is what is going on, why not have everyone grasp? Idk, maybe he only needs a couple dozen for his plan?
Kellhus will repeat the end of TTT; he will surround himself in a sphere of floating objects, but this time they will be gnostic sorcerers.
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Can't remember if this has been covered or not. In chapter 14 of TJE, p 303 US paperback, Akka has the dream of being above the Library of Sauglish. It is remarkable to him because he hangs alone in the air wondering where is Seswatha. Perhaps this is one of those incremental Akka-is-becoming-Seswatha moments. Akka can't see Ses because he is Ses.
Of course we could say 'duh' he's Ses in all the other dreams, but Akka isn't keenly aware of Seswatha's absence in previous dreams. So at least that part is neat.