The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Great Ordeal => The Aspect-Emperor => TGO ARC Discussion => Topic started by: Madness on May 12, 2016, 01:50:28 am
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The Great Ordeal has reconvened following the disaster at Irsulor and The Aspect-Emperor gives the dread command to consume their foe...
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just love how The Meat totally changes the character of the Ordeal
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Saubon dying, reaching for himself OMG!!!
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So, Dagliash itself, most certainly was a trap, that much is pretty obvious. The question though is a trap for what? The Bashrags with the Chorae along with the golden "bomb"seem to imply to me that it was meant as a trap for all the sorcerers, rather than the mundane forces of the Great Ordeal.
Seemingly though, Kellhus realizes the trap and "diffuses" the bomb to some extent, or controls it's detonation to some degree. I don't think the bomb was supposed to rise of it's own accord...unless, of course, Aurang had it rise up, which is why he shows up then disappears.
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Imo, I think it was the best place the Consult had to spring something like that. They would have known, through the Nonman agents in Ishterebinth, about the stipulation to retake Dagliash. It was a setup to get the Ordeal to be in one place, more or less, to try to take them out. I don't know if Kellhus dredging it up made the effect worse or not. I think the intended target was Kellhus himself, anyone/anything else would be a bonus. Consult be like 'WTF, even nukes can't kill Dunyain!'
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Well, I don't think the main aim was really to take out Kellhus, I think they know have to know he is beyond the same kind of trap that they got Titirga with, since Kellhus can just teleport. The rest of the sorcerers though, they'd definitely get caught in the "no Ground in the Well" thing, for sure.
Which brings me to a major question though, what the hell is up with the half-dead then seemingly walking to Golgotterath?
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just love how The Meat totally changes the character of the Ordeal
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Saubon dying, reaching for himself OMG!!!
On the first point: (And maybe others said this as well) In the effects of eating Sranc thread, I said that maybe it would turn men into a weapons race (which it kind of did) but I wasn't being serious. I would have considered it one of my tinfoil theories. Ha ha. Jesus. I just finished the book at 1am, and I am still shocked. What really blows my mind is that Kellhus didn't test this out beforehand. It seems like it was changing him as well. Did anyone else think that?
The Saubon scene: I was appalled. Really appalled in a way I have never been appalled when reading fiction. I went back to TWP and reread that scene again, then back to TGO. It was heartbreaking. Saubon spent half his life following Kellhus, only to be abandoned and damned. Kellhus could have saved him. Any of the witches could have saved him, which leads me to believe they were told to leave Saubon.
On a different note, WHAT'S UP WITH KELLHUS BANGING PROYAS? Is this an effect of the Meat? Is it just part of Kellhus's plan to prepare Proyas for his eventual mission?
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i think that the bashrag were the trap and that the nuke was the Plan C. there's no way the Consult use that unless they think there is no other option.
while on that subject--the nuke is curious, this is such a bald use of familiar technology. 'weapons of light' still has that old timey magical ring to it, but Bakker is def moving things into a magic vs tech collision
we are that much closer to Bakker saying that Earth is related to Earwa in some way, why else use a nuke? Bakker could totally have made it a nonmagical bomb described in nonnuclear terms, but he didn't. WHY???
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Yeah, lol that got me, too. I was all WTF? Can't say I grasp all the meaning from that, but at least part of it was a goad against Saubon. Kellhus confers with both Exalt Generals, keeps them both in his confidence, spends time alone with them in his tent. If it got out that he did that to Proyas, it would be assumed at large he'd also done it to Saubon. And buggery is taboo to the Galeoth. Maybe to keep control of their forces in the dire straits they were about to go through. If anyone thought Saubon was going 'soft' there'd be mutiny. Saubon would probably exercise more authority over his troops, exact greater control over them, just to assert more dominance in case anyone thought Kellhus had had his way with him, too. Maybe.
Or maybe Aspect-Emperors have needs, too.
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On the first point: (And maybe others said this as well) In the effects of eating Sranc thread, I said that maybe it would turn men into a weapons race (which it kind of did) but I wasn't being serious. I would have considered it one of my tinfoil theories. Ha ha. Jesus. I just finished the book at 1am, and I am still shocked. What really blows my mind is that Kellhus didn't test this out beforehand. It seems like it was changing him as well. Did anyone else think that?
I think he knew pretty well what was going to happen. Not exactly, as I am becoming more and more convinced that he knows little exactly and a huge amount generally (this is a function of TTT, he actually mentions this in one of the early conversations with Proyas). So, he knew it would make them pretty feral and that's what he wanted.
The Saubon scene: I was appalled. Really appalled in a way I have never been appalled when reading fiction. I went back to TWP and reread that scene again, then back to TGO. It was heartbreaking. Saubon spent half his life following Kellhus, only to be abandoned and damned. Kellhus could have saved him. Any of the witches could have saved him, which leads me to believe they were told to leave Saubon.
I kind of saw it coming, not exactly, but I had a feeling he was going to just get killed or sacrificed.
On a different note, WHAT'S UP WITH KELLHUS BANGING PROYAS? Is this an effect of the Meat? Is it just part of Kellhus's plan to prepare Proyas for his eventual mission?
Yeah, I'm lost on this one. All I can think of is that he was really trying to make it clear how much he had been, and is being, used.
i think that the bashrag were the trap and that the nuke was the Plan C. there's no way the Consult use that unless they think there is no other option.
while on that subject--the nuke is curious, this is such a bald use of familiar technology. 'weapons of light' still has that old timey magical ring to it, but Bakker is def moving things into a magic vs tech collision
we are that much closer to Bakker saying that Earth is related to Earwa in some way, why else use a nuke? Bakker could totally have made it a nonmagical bomb described in nonnuclear terms, but he didn't. WHY???
The radiation fallout? What if that egg was actually something like one of the fuel cells from the Ark?
Is this why Kellhus tells them the area is contaminated?
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Fuel cell. I like it. I wasn't at all bothered by the nuke. They are a spacefaring race of lovers, my friends. The certainly have nuclear technology. In fact, I would says nukes are on the low end of the spectrum of their tech.
On a different note, WHAT'S UP WITH KELLHUS BANGING PROYAS? Is this an effect of the Meat? Is it just part of Kellhus's plan to prepare Proyas for his eventual mission?
Yeah, I'm lost on this one. All I can think of is that he was really trying to make it clear how much he had been, and is being, used.
Yeah, this makes sense. But why the revelation? Are we assuming that Kellhus believes Proyas is stronger without his faith? I suppose that's possible. I wonder if, deep deep down, Saubon was jealous that Kellhus didn't fuck him too. ha ha.
On the first point: (And maybe others said this as well) In the effects of eating Sranc thread, I said that maybe it would turn men into a weapons race (which it kind of did) but I wasn't being serious. I would have considered it one of my tinfoil theories. Ha ha. Jesus. I just finished the book at 1am, and I am still shocked. What really blows my mind is that Kellhus didn't test this out beforehand. It seems like it was changing him as well. Did anyone else think that?
I think he knew pretty well what was going to happen. Not exactly, as I am becoming more and more convinced that he knows little exactly and a huge amount generally (this is a function of TTT, he actually mentions this in one of the early conversations with Proyas). So, he knew it would make them pretty feral and that's what he wanted.
I'm not sure I agree with this. If he saw what it would do, and had them eat Sranc anyway, then he counted it as an advantage. But we see in his final conversation with Proyas that he counts the effects as problematic. Elsewise, why tell Proyas to start eating people instead?
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Yeah, lol that got me, too. I was all WTF? Can't say I grasp all the meaning from that, but at least part of it was a goad against Saubon. Kellhus confers with both Exalt Generals, keeps them both in his confidence, spends time alone with them in his tent. If it got out that he did that to Proyas, it would be assumed at large he'd also done it to Saubon. And buggery is taboo to the Galeoth. Maybe to keep control of their forces in the dire straits they were about to go through. If anyone thought Saubon was going 'soft' there'd be mutiny. Saubon would probably exercise more authority over his troops, exact greater control over them, just to assert more dominance in case anyone thought Kellhus had had his way with him, too. Maybe.
Or maybe Aspect-Emperors have needs, too.
just reminded me, i felt like Kellhus was planning on Saubon being more likely to survive Dagliash, not Proyas, but Proyas must do!
so the GO must eat the GO, but that will only be for a while. there's no way a Second Hoard isn't on the way. the GO is going to dwindle to like 10k guys who eat dragons, bashrag, and Kellhus and the sorcerers are going to eat Aurang and then the Consult will just be fucked
Eanna is probably like all sranc
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I think he knew pretty well what was going to happen. Not exactly, as I am becoming more and more convinced that he knows little exactly and a huge amount generally (this is a function of TTT, he actually mentions this in one of the early conversations with Proyas). So, he knew it would make them pretty feral and that's what he wanted.
I'm not sure I agree with this. If he saw what it would do, and had them eat Sranc anyway, then he counted it as an advantage. But we see in his final conversation with Proyas that he counts the effects as problematic. Elsewise, why tell Proyas to start eating people instead?
Maybe he meant problematic going forward? The Sranc-effect to get them to and through Dagliash, now something different to get to Golgotterath?
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I think he knew pretty well what was going to happen. Not exactly, as I am becoming more and more convinced that he knows little exactly and a huge amount generally (this is a function of TTT, he actually mentions this in one of the early conversations with Proyas). So, he knew it would make them pretty feral and that's what he wanted.
I'm not sure I agree with this. If he saw what it would do, and had them eat Sranc anyway, then he counted it as an advantage. But we see in his final conversation with Proyas that he counts the effects as problematic. Elsewise, why tell Proyas to start eating people instead?
Maybe he meant problematic going forward? The Sranc-effect to get them to and through Dagliash, now something different to get to Golgotterath?
is it problematic or just absent for the time being?
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I think he knew pretty well what was going to happen. Not exactly, as I am becoming more and more convinced that he knows little exactly and a huge amount generally (this is a function of TTT, he actually mentions this in one of the early conversations with Proyas). So, he knew it would make them pretty feral and that's what he wanted.
I'm not sure I agree with this. If he saw what it would do, and had them eat Sranc anyway, then he counted it as an advantage. But we see in his final conversation with Proyas that he counts the effects as problematic. Elsewise, why tell Proyas to start eating people instead?
Maybe he meant problematic going forward? The Sranc-effect to get them to and through Dagliash, now something different to get to Golgotterath?
is it problematic or just absent for the time being?
It seemed to me like he was saying not to do it anymore.
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It seemed to me like he was saying not to do it anymore.
Well, the thing is, there aren't any more Sranc around, are there?
He says:
Seize them, Proyas. Brint the Host to heel with whip and sword. Take up its lust, fashion it as a potter fashions clay. Consuming the Sranc has transformed its zeal into a living fire, one that only violence and victims can cajole and appease ..."
What was happening? What was he saying?
"Something must be eaten ... Do you understand me?"
"I-I think ..."
"You, Proyas! You alone! You must make decisions that no Believer could."
I think they probably would still eat Sranc if there were any left really...
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It seemed to me like he was saying not to do it anymore.
Well, the thing is, there aren't any more Sranc around, are there?
He says:
Seize them, Proyas. Brint the Host to heel with whip and sword. Take up its lust, fashion it as a potter fashions clay. Consuming the Sranc has transformed its zeal into a living fire, one that only violence and victims can cajole and appease ..."
What was happening? What was he saying?
"Something must be eaten ... Do you understand me?"
"I-I think ..."
"You, Proyas! You alone! You must make decisions that no Believer could."
I think they probably would still eat Sranc if there were any left really...
I took it to mean they would need to start consuming themselves. The Cannibal Ordeal.
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It seemed to me like he was saying not to do it anymore.
Well, the thing is, there aren't any more Sranc around, are there?
He says:
Seize them, Proyas. Brint the Host to heel with whip and sword. Take up its lust, fashion it as a potter fashions clay. Consuming the Sranc has transformed its zeal into a living fire, one that only violence and victims can cajole and appease ..."
What was happening? What was he saying?
"Something must be eaten ... Do you understand me?"
"I-I think ..."
"You, Proyas! You alone! You must make decisions that no Believer could."
I think they probably would still eat Sranc if there were any left really...
I took it to mean they would need to start consuming themselves. The Cannibal Ordeal.
That's what I thought. No Sranc --> Ordeal eats Ordeal. UNTIL MORE SRANC SHOW UP OF COURSE! Or Zeumi ships.
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The Raft--> maybe when Kellhus heads back north he will just take a ship from the 3 seas, load it with some fresh faces and sail the sky. It would be kind of cool for a battle with a dragon.
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That's what I thought. No Sranc --> Ordeal eats Ordeal. UNTIL MORE SRANC SHOW UP OF COURSE! Or Zeumi ships.
Somehow I think Zeum has bigger problems...
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That's what I thought. No Sranc --> Ordeal eats Ordeal. UNTIL MORE SRANC SHOW UP OF COURSE! Or Zeumi ships.
Somehow I think Zeum has bigger problems...
that ciphrang is just going to make them get in line! Kellhus is losing his fucking patience, so will just take the throne from them.
that's what i assume Kellhus has in mind: ciphrang in the form of Malowebi kills the king, takes the throne, puts Zeum at Kellhus' disposal. the only thing is that Malowebi from in WLW says something to the effect that he's seen ciphrang running around before. so maybe the kind of assassin Kellhus is sending is not unknown to the Zeumi/their school and they will be able to recognize it and resist
Christ, it just occurred to me that Kellhus ordered that ciphrang to end the 'line' -- maybe that ciphrang will be headed north? or will turn north after killing the king in Zeum?
i wonder what it will mean if the decapitants are 'under Yatwer's jurisdiction' or something. that is, that they might be sleeper agents, or will be able to resist Kellhus authority over them at some point.
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that ciphrang is just going to make them get in line! Kellhus is losing his fucking patience, so will just take the throne from them.
that's what i assume Kellhus has in mind: ciphrang in the form of Malowebi kills the king, takes the throne, puts Zeum at Kellhus' disposal. the only thing is that Malowebi from in WLW says something to the effect that he's seen ciphrang running around before. so maybe the kind of assassin Kellhus is sending is not unknown to the Zeumi/their school and they will be able to recognize it and resist
Christ, it just occurred to me that Kellhus ordered that ciphrang to end the 'line' -- maybe that ciphrang will be headed north? or will turn north after killing the king in Zeum?
My guess it is all part of him exterminating the Old Ways, in preparation of the new. As for after that? I don't know.
Thing is, I think they would see a Ciphrang, but would they see a Ciphrang/Malowebi hybrid? Somehow I am thinking this is something akin to The Knife of Many Hands situation. I don't know they will see through it...
i wonder what it will mean if the decapitants are 'under Yatwer's jurisdiction' or something. that is, that they might be sleeper agents, or will be able to resist Kellhus authority over them at some point.
In rereading it, it seems that Kellhus animates the Decaptitant with his own blood. I think it's loyalty is probably secure.
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"exterminating the Old Ways" - nice! i can't tell if what Kellhus did was special or just a run of the mill kind of possession.
will Kellhus walk around with Malowebi's head on his belt? :)
it's interesting that he needed to groom Proyas for a special task, but he just lops off Malowebi's head. it would be hella more convenient to just decapitate Proyas and tell the GO--follow this demon guy, it's holy because i said so, i'll be back before bedtime
what do you bet Kellhus put's Malowebi's head on his belt and glamors it so that M's head looks like one of the original decapitants and then we find out that the other head is already in play!!!
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IT'S CNAIUR
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then we find out that the other head is already in play!!!
I have a suspicion it was done before. Lord Kosoter.
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I've been harboring my theory of Kellhus purposely removing the Lords and nobles of all the states to drag them to die in the Great Ordeal in order to assure that the Old Ways are not returned to afterward. This Ciphrang Assassination just seems like the next step, since we know, through Zsoronga, that Zeum is quite fond of saying they have done things in a particular way for a long, long time...
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I took it to mean they would need to start consuming themselves. The Cannibal Ordeal.
Which contemporaries will call the Androphagia ;D
That's what I thought. No Sranc --> Ordeal eats Ordeal. UNTIL MORE SRANC SHOW UP OF COURSE! Or Zeumi ships.
Somehow I think Zeum has bigger problems...
that ciphrang is just going to make them get in line! Kellhus is losing his fucking patience, so will just take the throne from them.
that's what i assume Kellhus has in mind: ciphrang in the form of Malowebi kills the king, takes the throne, puts Zeum at Kellhus' disposal. the only thing is that Malowebi from in WLW says something to the effect that he's seen ciphrang running around before. so maybe the kind of assassin Kellhus is sending is not unknown to the Zeumi/their school and they will be able to recognize it and resist
Christ, it just occurred to me that Kellhus ordered that ciphrang to end the 'line' -- maybe that ciphrang will be headed north? or will turn north after killing the king in Zeum?
i wonder what it will mean if the decapitants are 'under Yatwer's jurisdiction' or something. that is, that they might be sleeper agents, or will be able to resist Kellhus authority over them at some point.
I also thought it might be turning north. Although we have no idea what's even up with Zsoronga (sp) at this point. We didn't see him for the entire book...If Tinnurit is the son of the King of Tribes, whose son is he really, because I don't think he is Cnaiur's.
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Lol.
I'm so out of practice. But this is good, it'll help to be reacquainted with this habit before school.
So rather than respond specifically because I'm actually overwhelmed by text right now I'm just going to pick out the themes of posts so far.
The Trap at Dagliash:
I remember in my first read through I thought for sure that Consult had captured Kellhus until I realized that he Translocated - like a passage later. "Flee! Flee! Each must save himself!" So awesome. I also enjoy that Kayutas heard Kellhus tell the Raft Party to flee from the back of the Ordeal's devolution.
But a timeline of sorts regarding strategy:
The Consult are obviously avoiding a direct engagement for as long as possible. As far as we have the Ordeal's side of tactical theory, it is believed that the Consult cannot contend with the combined sorcerous might of the Three Seas, especially the Metagnosis, which is a completely new development in the algebra of Earwan Warfare. That the Metagnosis exists at all is one of the few things the Nonmen of Ishterebinth work to verify when they interrogate the Hostages of the Niom in the Chamber of Endless Ingress.
So the Consult must do anything they can to sap the Ordeal's strength before this sorcerous conflagration to come - one denied to us since TDTCB - and they know the Great Ordeal will eventually draw the Horde. They try to use the Ten-Yoke Legion to take the Ordeal unawares but don't account Yatwerian intercession (something for another topic).
First Battle of the Horde: Consult - 0, Ordeal - 1.
Consult tries again at Irsulor. Since Kayutas made the choice to unveil the Swayali at the First Battle, the Consult have a little more understanding of how the Ordeal deploys the Schools. They secret Bashrag in the Horde and wait to deploy them until the Vokalati and the Mandate get lost in the Shroud above the Horde.
Second Battle of the Horde: Consult - 1, Ordeal - 0.
Now - as something of a strategy nerd - I really enjoyed TGO and the approach to Dagliash for the insight we have into Kellhus' tactical acumen (which is why I would love a Unifications Wars narrative, regarding how Kellhus conquers the Three Seas with the Mandate).
It's actually remarkably simple. Kellhus uses the Urrokas and Schools, the Neleost Sea, The Raft Party, and the Ordeal to box the entirety of the Horde in. Arguably, the Swayali are the most powerful School next to the Mandate and Saubon's forces are some the hardest Veterans of the Ordeal. Kellhus himself goes to Dagliash because he knows it is the only place where the Consult might catch him unawares.
If the Ordeal chases the Horde to Golgotterath, the Ordeal are just doing the Consult a favour. So the Consult knows that Kellhus must stop the Horde at Dagliash. They load up Viri's buried Mansion with Legions upon Legions.
Forgive that long-winded summary but it bears the crux of the matter. Given all that, the Consult either do or don't know that the Metagnosis is powerful enough to excavate Nogaral from the Viritic Well in which they buried Titirga...
Probably, since the Consult were willing to destroy the Horde with the Tekne-Nuke, they simply meant to take out as many of the Ordeal as possible. It's possible they knew which School Kellhus would bring to Dagliash but I doubt it. It's just another part of the Consult's strategy - to this point - which is take as many of the Ordeal out, bonus points for sorcerers, before the Ordeal reaches a place where the Consult must actually engage.
And as per the future, The Consult seems to intend to point the Scylvendi spear at the Ordeal's back... Whether Cnaiur is a Conphas or a Saubon, circa Shimeh, remains to be seen.
The Meat/The Cannibal Ordeal:
Lol - I'm still not convinced I understand what's happening with the Meat. I do side with those who feel that Kellhus has commanded Proyas to feed the Ordeal the Ordeal. I don't know why continuing to eat the flesh of Man would keep up the same effects as eating Sranc over time but there are other Sranc - both Saubon and Achamian comment on the Sranc wearing Consult epaulets at Dagliash and with the Scylvendi.
The Leper Ordeal:
In my read, it seems like Proyas and Hoga Gothyelk's son (don't have the draft on me to name check, is it Hogrim?) are arguing that the Leper Ordeal must continue to participate in the assault on Golgotterath, that not even the devastation and sickness at Dagliash frees the Leper Ordeal from their duty. And while I don't really understand what happened with Sibuwal Vaka at Pas-Erreot (or Wreoleth, if that was how it indeed was referred to in the ARC - as I mentioned, lots of little changes from draft to ARC regarding many adjectives and pronouns, which I find exceedingly interesting) but Vaka simply comes to the conclusion that he will continue to war against the Consult regardless what the Leper Ordeal decides and so leads that truly heartbreaking vigil across the dead Sranc to Agongorea.
Proyas/Saubon:
Kellhus actually foreshadows Saubon's death years and years previous to TGO as per a reminiscence by Proyas in the early chapters. Something about Proyas being upset with Saubon's conduct in the Unificiation Wars and Kellhus simply responded that he's "training warlords to die on wicked heights."
Again - I mentioned this in another thread but Kellhus literally name drops Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil when talking with Proyas after the battle. Kellhus seducing Proyas - for me anyways - mirrors Moenghus' seduction of Cnaiur. The love between a man and a man is anathema to the Galeoth, the Scylvendi, and the juxtaposition that the Dunyain create in the objects of their seduction results in a cognitive dissonance so extreme, at least in Cnaiur's case, that it enables/breaks Cnaiur to be capable of... well, anything.
Kellhus needs Proyas to be unconstrained.
I wonder if Proyas ever thinks back to that moment when he arrived at the beaches of Momemn and just wishes he'd fell off the launch, then and there, drowning in knee deep water ;).
Lol - that's one. Definitely not going to get through all of these this morning.
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Hanging out at a Commencement party, so I don't have much time to dither, will be back tomorrow in force. Saccarees being possessed by Seswatha and going out alone to confront Aurang was a supremely epic moment.
Saubon's death—all the chills.
"Does it trouble you, Proyas? To know that Serwe burns in Hell." Had to set my book down, that's how uncomfortable that line made me.
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This is the one thing that's also been denied to Somnambulist and I.
There are now two or three one-liners that have been quoted to me that were since added, changed, as per the draft. Which is great for Future Som and I :).
Another MG read to me was Kellhus telling Saubon that he thought the Tekne-Nuke was a good thing before Translocating out of Dagliash... that's fucking gold.
The Great Ordeal, I think, is the darkest Second Apocalypse volume, thus far. Often when reading I thought about how the Second Apocalypse narrative has just wandered and found itself in the precincts of horror.
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I was so excited when Aurang came in. Even more excited when Saccarees waded out to meet him.
Than I was disappointed, :(
But I am pretty sure Aurang was just baiting the trap further, even though, I still think that bomb was supposed to stay in the Well, not be raised above it.
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I've noticed your off-quotations, Madness. There is no "beyond good and evil" namedrop when Kellhus and Proyas confer after Dagliash. The line in the ARC is also "I'm training warlords to conquer Golgotterath" not "to die upon wicked heights" or what-have-you. Both the early renditions of those lines would've been way too on the nose, not that isn't Bakker's forte sometimes.
Confirmation that the Newborn/Imburil = The Nail of Heaven. Inchoroi wormhole, warpgate thingy. But three years later till Arkfall? And then the descriptions of the explosion happening before the Ark seems to descend? Like they were clearing the way because they knew exactly where they wanted to land?
Dagliash built upon Nogaral upon Viri had me facepalming. It's so obvious and makes so much sense. Didn't think that architectural connection had been speculated by anyone. It certainly hadn't crossed my mind.
Going to articulate a very strange thought, one which I will have to parse by rereading the two Dagliash chapters. I think Aurang wanted the Horde to be destroyed. As soon as the Sranc became regarded for their utility as food, it would be far more beneficial to destroy them. As long as the Horde is continuously shadowing the Ordeal, they have an unlimited food supply. As Kascamandri made a shield of the Carathay many years ago by crippling the logistics/supplies of the Holy War, Aurang would make a shield of the Field Appalling. Not sure if Sranc meat can keep, or if can still provide sustenance after being rotten, but even still—the Ordeal no longer have vast moving hordes of Sranc-cattle, they have to carry their own Meat, as it were.
I also think that secreting Weapon-races under Daglish/in Viri was not to ambush whoever took Dagliash but to lure them into thinking that the Consult was going to try and engage in somewhat symmetrical warfare. The deception was pretending that they were even trying—Aurang intentionally threw the battle. The Tekne-nuke was just a sideshow, the ace in the hole was destroying the Great Ordeal's food supply. Agongorea will do the rest.
Edit: I think Kellhus may have anticipated some of this, which is why I concur with others that he is preparing Proyas for the Cannibal Ordeal. "Something must be eaten..."
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Yeah, I think the Consult certainly wouldn't have minded dropping most of the sorcerers down the Well too, while they were at it, but indeed, they probably saw the necessity in exterminating the Sranc too.
Not that they ever really value Sranc lives (crunch all you want, we'll make more).
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Yeah, lol that got me, too. I was all WTF? Can't say I grasp all the meaning from that, but at least part of it was a goad against Saubon. Kellhus confers with both Exalt Generals, keeps them both in his confidence, spends time alone with them in his tent. If it got out that he did that to Proyas, it would be assumed at large he'd also done it to Saubon. And buggery is taboo to the Galeoth. Maybe to keep control of their forces in the dire straits they were about to go through. If anyone thought Saubon was going 'soft' there'd be mutiny. Saubon would probably exercise more authority over his troops, exact greater control over them, just to assert more dominance in case anyone thought Kellhus had had his way with him, too. Maybe.
Or maybe Aspect-Emperors have needs, too.
I was to break his faith. He had to be heavy handed with him. It took many degradations to break his absolute faith, this was just one more.
Why Proyas and not Saubon? Because Saubon was to die at Dagliash. Proyas was always the one to take of the Ordeal after Kellhus left.
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On The Meat, I certainly think Kellhus say this affect coming. He had 20 years, no way he didn't test it out and see what it did. Couldn't risk them all dying immediately or something else overly terrible.
I don't think Kellhus expected it to have such a deep affect on himself.
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Did the thing Kellhus brought up from the deep the Nuke? For some reason I thought the two were separate events. Probably just read it too fast.
I have no issue with the Nuke. It basically already happened with the NG dying, nuclear fallout and such. As Blackstone said, as far as super-advanced-spacefaring-aliens go, nukes are pretty low tech.
It seemed to me like he was saying not to do it anymore.
Well, the thing is, there aren't any more Sranc around, are there?
He says:
Seize them, Proyas. Brint the Host to heel with whip and sword. Take up its lust, fashion it as a potter fashions clay. Consuming the Sranc has transformed its zeal into a living fire, one that only violence and victims can cajole and appease ..."
What was happening? What was he saying?
"Something must be eaten ... Do you understand me?"
"I-I think ..."
"You, Proyas! You alone! You must make decisions that no Believer could."
I think they probably would still eat Sranc if there were any left really...
I'm not sure what that implies. I don't see it meaning 'don't eat anymore sranc', but if there are not enough left... I guess straight up cannibalism is kind of all that's left.
But who gets to eat who? Sorcerers get to stay fat, the Ordeal will slowly starve, the wounded will be eaten. Gross.
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2 if by Sea! Zeum will help!
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then we find out that the other head is already in play!!!
I have a suspicion it was done before. Lord Kosoter.
Ooo. Nice.
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Going to have to multi-post to keep my thoughts ordered.
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Lol.
I'm so out of practice. But this is good, it'll help to be reacquainted with this habit before school.
Welcome back.
The Trap at Dagliash:
...
Second Battle of the Horde: Consult - 1, Ordeal - 0.
Shouldnt that be C -1, O - 1 now? Its a tie game.
Now - as something of a strategy nerd - I really enjoyed TGO and the approach to Dagliash for the insight we have into Kellhus' tactical acumen
These bits of insight are great, and watching him wield TGO so effectively is great.
Forgive that long-winded summary but it bears the crux of the matter. Given all that, the Consult either do or don't know that the Metagnosis is powerful enough to excavate Nogaral from the Viritic Well in which they buried Titirga...
Probably, since the Consult were willing to destroy the Horde with the Tekne-Nuke, they simply meant to take out as many of the Ordeal as possible. It's possible they knew which School Kellhus would bring to Dagliash but I doubt it. It's just another part of the Consult's strategy - to this point - which is take as many of the Ordeal out, bonus points for sorcerers, before the Ordeal reaches a place where the Consult must actually engage.
The Nuke is referred to as only 'the golden coffer'. I really didnt like that notation. Seemed really forced.
Which, to me, seemed to rise on its own accord, undamaged and touched by Kellhus until he sees it directly and takes control of it.
FYI, a Nuke would do far, far, more damage bursting way up in the air rather than down a well. Deep enough, and only an earthquake would have been noticed. Not at all the Consults goal. They needed it to raise from the Well.
It's my opinion that the Bashrag and the Chorae where entirely a sacrifice to the Nuke, not to mention the legions and legions of Ur-Sranc that were roasted before Kellhus even set foot onto Dagliash.
Also:
"What is it?" ... - Saubon
Three Heartbeats passed.
An Inchoroi Object. A Tekne artifact. - Kellhus
The Writing that glowers upon it ... What does it say? - S
That not everyone can be saved - K
What do you say? - S
The leonine profile lowered in contemplation, his gaze wet and rigid. .. His Savior turned to him, smiled what might have counted as an apology had they played number-sticks. "That this is a good thing" - K
Paraphrased.
Kellhus knows its going to kill a bunch of people, and he's fine with that. This read to me as trading a piece of the Ordeal for most of the Consult's horde - which Kellhus thinks is a fine trade. Might be the Meat talking, but I think Kellhus feels a bit bad that so many must die like this.
You have to feed an army. Smaller armies need less food. Wins all around.
The Leper Ordeal:
In my read, it seems like Proyas and Hoga Gothyelk's son (don't have the draft on me to name check, is it Hogrim?) are arguing that the Leper Ordeal must continue to participate in the assault on Golgotterath,
"In my read" - meaning specifically that they said this? No such conversation audibly takes place.
Vaka simply comes to the conclusion that he will continue to war against the Consult regardless what the Leper Ordeal decides and so leads that truly heartbreaking vigil across the dead Sranc to Agongorea.
Heartbreaking, aye. Much of that in this book. It's great that they all just decide to follow without understanding. Moving for the sake of moving.
Proyas/Saubon:
"training warlords to die on wicked heights."
Beyond Good and Evil when talking with Proyas after the battle...
No such quotes
Kellhus seducing Proyas - for me anyways - mirrors Moenghus' seduction of Cnaiur. The love between a man and a man is anathema to the Galeoth, the Scylvendi, and the juxtaposition that the Dunyain create in the objects of their seduction results in a cognitive dissonance so extreme, at least in Cnaiur's case, that it enables/breaks Cnaiur to be capable of... well, anything.
Kellhus needs Proyas to be unconstrained.
Wow, that's a nice parallel I can't believe I missed. Fully agree.
Proyas the Unconstrained.
I wonder if Proyas ever thinks back to that moment when he arrived at the beaches of Momemn and just wishes he'd fell off the launch, then and there, drowning in knee deep water ;).
Oh man, I can see that too. "If only I had drown that day". Dying a few cubits from his future savior turned demon.
I was so excited when Aurang came in. Even more excited when Saccarees waded out to meet him.
Than I was disappointed, :(
But I am pretty sure Aurang was just baiting the trap further, even though, I still think that bomb was supposed to stay in the Well, not be raised above it.
Haha, yes, what an extreme let down. But what a great line just before the Nuke. "The days are new Chigra ... And far shorter than the old"
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I've noticed your off-quotations, Madness.
The Dolour takes him.
Confirmation that the Newborn/Imburil = The Nail of Heaven.
I didn't know that was in question, but yeah seems pretty clear now.
Inchoroi wormhole, warpgate thingy. But three years later till Arkfall? And then the descriptions of the explosion happening before the Ark seems to descend? Like they were clearing the way because they knew exactly where they wanted to land?
That was pretty amazing. Really makes it seem not like a haphazard landing - except for all the Inchoroi dead of course.
Also, it was and extinction level event, which I appreciate.
Going to articulate a very strange thought, one which I will have to parse by rereading the two Dagliash chapters. I think Aurang wanted the Horde to be destroyed. As soon as the Sranc became regarded for their utility as food, it would be far more beneficial to destroy them. As long as the Horde is continuously shadowing the Ordeal, they have an unlimited food supply. As Kascamandri made a shield of the Carathay many years ago by crippling the logistics/supplies of the Holy War, Aurang would make a shield of the Field Appalling. Not sure if Sranc meat can keep, or if can still provide sustenance after being rotten, but even still—the Ordeal no longer have vast moving hordes of Sranc-cattle, they have to carry their own Meat, as it were.
History keeps repeating, and that's a great connection with Carathay. I didn't think of that before you said it, but I'm totally on board with that.
I also think that secreting Weapon-races under Daglish/in Viri was not to ambush whoever took Dagliash but to lure them into thinking that the Consult was going to try and engage in somewhat symmetrical warfare. The deception was pretending that they were even trying—Aurang intentionally threw the battle. The Tekne-nuke was just a sideshow, the ace in the hole was destroying the Great Ordeal's food supply. Agongorea will do the rest.
Agreed. They couldn't fill it with sranc, too hard to control. Had to fill it with Bashrag. Why not just leave it empty? Probably the Consult feared that Kellhus would be able to tell somehow that it was a false trap. They really needed something to look like a secret trap. Maybe they thought, hey if the bomb stays buried the Bashrag might pull a few down, but they big prize here is Kellhus. Cut the head from the snake.
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I've noticed your off-quotations, Madness. There is no "beyond good and evil" namedrop when Kellhus and Proyas confer after Dagliash. The line in the ARC is also "I'm training warlords to conquer Golgotterath" not "to die upon wicked heights" or what-have-you. Both the early renditions of those lines would've been way too on the nose, not that isn't Bakker's forte sometimes.
You've rightfully admonished me. Though, the things it's teaching me about the writing process - super exciting. I can't wait to compare the draft to the ARC or the canon artifact line for line.
Going to articulate a very strange thought, one which I will have to parse by rereading the two Dagliash chapters. I think Aurang wanted the Horde to be destroyed. As soon as the Sranc became regarded for their utility as food, it would be far more beneficial to destroy them. As long as the Horde is continuously shadowing the Ordeal, they have an unlimited food supply. As Kascamandri made a shield of the Carathay many years ago by crippling the logistics/supplies of the Holy War, Aurang would make a shield of the Field Appalling. Not sure if Sranc meat can keep, or if can still provide sustenance after being rotten, but even still—the Ordeal no longer have vast moving hordes of Sranc-cattle, they have to carry their own Meat, as it were.
Not that strange :).
I also think that secreting Weapon-races under Daglish/in Viri was not to ambush whoever took Dagliash but to lure them into thinking that the Consult was going to try and engage in somewhat symmetrical warfare. The deception was pretending that they were even trying—Aurang intentionally threw the battle. The Tekne-nuke was just a sideshow, the ace in the hole was destroying the Great Ordeal's food supply. Agongorea will do the rest.
Edit: I think Kellhus may have anticipated some of this, which is why I concur with others that he is preparing Proyas for the Cannibal Ordeal. "Something must be eaten..."
There seems to be a consensus on the vastness of Agongorea that I hadn't perceived. It should just an entire plain of shattered glass, right?
Just don't eat the Leper Ordeal, Proyas...
Yeah, I think the Consult certainly wouldn't have minded dropping most of the sorcerers down the Well too, while they were at it, but indeed, they probably saw the necessity in exterminating the Sranc too.
Not that they ever really value Sranc lives (crunch all you want, we'll make more).
I've seen you invoke the "Well" a couple times now. I'm fairly sure the trick there is fairly mundane on the part of Shaeonanra and the Inchoroi (as I won't refer to him as Aurang because the appellation didn't occur until the Apocalypse :P). The Viritic Well is a giant hole with a "carpet" over it in the False Sun. There's no "echo of the ground" for Titirga to balance himself on when he falls through and then Shaeonanra and the Inchoroi bring Nogaral down the Well for good measure.
But who gets to eat who? Sorcerers get to stay fat, the Ordeal will slowly starve, the wounded will be eaten. Gross.
Just don't eat the Leper Ordeal.
then we find out that the other head is already in play!!!
I have a suspicion it was done before. Lord Kosoter.
Ooo. Nice.
Lol - we've definitely had two separate threads kicking around regarding this on the forum ;).
The Trap at Dagliash:
...
Second Battle of the Horde: Consult - 1, Ordeal - 0.
Shouldnt that be C -1, O - 1 now? Its a tie game.
Never said I was good at keeping score :P. Though, as of TGO, Consult - 2, Ordeal - 1.
Forgive that long-winded summary but it bears the crux of the matter. Given all that, the Consult either do or don't know that the Metagnosis is powerful enough to excavate Nogaral from the Viritic Well in which they buried Titirga...
Probably, since the Consult were willing to destroy the Horde with the Tekne-Nuke, they simply meant to take out as many of the Ordeal as possible. It's possible they knew which School Kellhus would bring to Dagliash but I doubt it. It's just another part of the Consult's strategy - to this point - which is take as many of the Ordeal out, bonus points for sorcerers, before the Ordeal reaches a place where the Consult must actually engage.
The Nuke is referred to as only 'the golden coffer'. I really didnt like that notation. Seemed really forced.
Which, to me, seemed to rise on its own accord, undamaged and touched by Kellhus until he sees it directly and takes control of it.
FYI, a Nuke would do far, far, more damage bursting way up in the air rather than down a well. Deep enough, and only an earthquake would have been noticed. Not at all the Consults goal. They needed it to raise from the Well.
It's my opinion that the Bashrag and the Chorae where entirely a sacrifice to the Nuke, not to mention the legions and legions of Ur-Sranc that were roasted before Kellhus even set foot onto Dagliash.
Again - allowing for reconciliation between draft/ARC/canon artifact: the question for me is one of when? Because, as far as my read, it seems like it's more organic that the "golden coffer" is part of the Nogaral's debris that Kellhus is raising out of the Well to stuff all the "rotted ground" beneath Dagliash.
So is the "golden coffer" carried into the Mansion when the Consult send the Legions in or has the "golden coffer" been there since the False Sun?
Raises a new question, where's the damned Diurnal?
Also:
"What is it?" ... - Saubon
Three Heartbeats passed.
An Inchoroi Object. A Tekne artifact. - Kellhus
The Writing that glowers upon it ... What does it say? - S
That not everyone can be saved - K
What do you say? - S
The leonine profile lowered in contemplation, his gaze wet and rigid. .. His Savior turned to him, smiled what might have counted as an apology had they played number-sticks. "That this is a good thing" - K
Paraphrased.
Kellhus knows its going to kill a bunch of people, and he's fine with that. This read to me as trading a piece of the Ordeal for most of the Consult's horde - which Kellhus thinks is a fine trade. Might be the Meat talking, but I think Kellhus feels a bit bad that so many must die like this.
You have to feed an army. Smaller armies need less food. Wins all around.
Plus meatshield, meta-meatshield.
The Leper Ordeal:
In my read, it seems like Proyas and Hoga Gothyelk's son (don't have the draft on me to name check, is it Hogrim?) are arguing that the Leper Ordeal must continue to participate in the assault on Golgotterath,
"In my read" - meaning specifically that they said this? No such conversation audibly takes place.
Yeah, no, there was no dialogue. "In my read" referring only to the clear differences between the draft and ARC as mentioned across a number of my recent posts. But my sense of that passage suggests that the Leper Ordeal would have been happier to just lay there and die.
Also, is it even called the Leper Ordeal in the ARC?
Vaka simply comes to the conclusion that he will continue to war against the Consult regardless what the Leper Ordeal decides and so leads that truly heartbreaking vigil across the dead Sranc to Agongorea.
Heartbreaking, aye. Much of that in this book. It's great that they all just decide to follow without understanding. Moving for the sake of moving.
Onward to the horrible release of death.
Proyas/Saubon:
"training warlords to die on wicked heights."
Beyond Good and Evil when talking with Proyas after the battle...
No such quotes
Indeed, HP mentioned above.
Kellhus seducing Proyas - for me anyways - mirrors Moenghus' seduction of Cnaiur. The love between a man and a man is anathema to the Galeoth, the Scylvendi, and the juxtaposition that the Dunyain create in the objects of their seduction results in a cognitive dissonance so extreme, at least in Cnaiur's case, that it enables/breaks Cnaiur to be capable of... well, anything.
Kellhus needs Proyas to be unconstrained.
Wow, that's a nice parallel I can't believe I missed. Fully agree.
Proyas the Unconstrained.
Even as I was rereading the new Ch. 1 excerpt, you might have substituted many of Cnaiur's mid-late TWP passages for Proyas's now. Wants to ride beyond all the madness. If only he could be alone with his thoughts.
I wonder if Proyas ever thinks back to that moment when he arrived at the beaches of Momemn and just wishes he'd fell off the launch, then and there, drowning in knee deep water ;).
Oh man, I can see that too. "If only I had drown that day". Dying a few cubits from his future savior turned demon.
Lol - he might have even merited consideration by the Gods then.
I was so excited when Aurang came in. Even more excited when Saccarees waded out to meet him.
Than I was disappointed, :(
But I am pretty sure Aurang was just baiting the trap further, even though, I still think that bomb was supposed to stay in the Well, not be raised above it.
Haha, yes, what an extreme let down. But what a great line just before the Nuke. "The days are new Chigra ... And far shorter than the old"
As far as the series and TAE have gone so far I'm glad that he's saved the Consult until TUC-proper.
I've noticed your off-quotations, Madness.
The Dolour takes him.
Long ago.
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Yeah, I think the Consult certainly wouldn't have minded dropping most of the sorcerers down the Well too, while they were at it, but indeed, they probably saw the necessity in exterminating the Sranc too.
Not that they ever really value Sranc lives (crunch all you want, we'll make more).
I've seen you invoke the "Well" a couple times now. I'm fairly sure the trick there is fairly mundane on the part of Shaeonanra and the Inchoroi (as I won't refer to him as Aurang because the appellation didn't occur until the Apocalypse :P). The Viritic Well is a giant hole with a "carpet" over it in the False Sun. There's no "echo of the ground" for Titirga to balance himself on when he falls through and then Shaeonanra and the Inchoroi bring Nogaral down the Well for good measure.
My initial feeling about the whole thing was to blow the top off the whole thing while the sorcerers were on top, then they'd fall down the Well, just like Titirga did.
That might not have really been the point, but that was my impression at first.
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I didnt consider the golden coffer to be the bomb until I came here. I thought Kellhus carried it off with him, but that just doesnt make sense.
As for When, I think it was carried in. But why bury it? They really set the fuse way too long I think. Should have just put it on top and detonated it as soon as sorcery smelled near.
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I didnt consider the golden coffer to be the bomb until I came here. I thought Kellhus carried it off with him, but that just doesnt make sense.
As for When, I think it was carried in. But why bury it? They really set the fuse way too long I think. Should have just put it on top and detonated it as soon as sorcery smelled near.
I think if they left it on the hill the sranc would have fiddled with it too much and accidentally set it off. There is also the chance that Kellhus would have immediately figured it out. Burying it may have been the only option, and we don't know exactly how deep it was. Maybe not deep enough to matter.
They should have had a wracu drop it from high up so there could have been an airburst.
I'm kind of wondering why the nukes weren't used in the FA. Maybe they didn't think they needed to waste them when they had the No-god and all. Or maybe it was a recent invention or discovery in the darkest recesses of the Ark.
Aurang: Shit, dude, I forgot all about this.
Aurax: I told you to check down here for it.
Aurang: When?
Aurax: Like five thousand years ago
Aurang: My bad
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I'm kind of wondering why the nukes weren't used in the FA. Maybe they didn't think they needed to waste them when they had the No-god and all. Or maybe it was a recent invention or discovery in the darkest recesses of the Ark.
Aurang: Shit, dude, I forgot all about this.
Aurax: I told you to check down here for it.
Aurang: When?
Aurax: Like five thousand years ago
Aurang: My bad
Well, there is the cryptic quote about there being two impacts during Arkfall.
One that burned everything, pushed up the mountains. Then the Ark fell into it. So, perhaps they cleared the way with a nuke before landing?
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I'm kind of wondering why the nukes weren't used in the FA. Maybe they didn't think they needed to waste them when they had the No-god and all. Or maybe it was a recent invention or discovery in the darkest recesses of the Ark.
Aurang: Shit, dude, I forgot all about this.
Aurax: I told you to check down here for it.
Aurang: When?
Aurax: Like five thousand years ago
Aurang: My bad
Well, there is the cryptic quote about there being two impacts during Arkfall.
One that burned everything, pushed up the mountains. Then the Ark fell into it. So, perhaps they cleared the way with a nuke before landing?
Hmm. That's a real possibility. But why not use them at all during the FA?
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Hmm. That's a real possibility. But why not use them at all during the FA?
Well, that is the mystery. All I can think of initially is that they only had two, so they didn't want to just spend the last one willy-nilly.
But even then, you'd think they'd have used it at Mengedda rather than expose the No-God.
So, I guess it must be "new" or at least cobbled together recently. Perhaps that was all the material they could scrounge up though?
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So someone may have recently built it. Someone with a great intellect.
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So someone may have recently built it. Someone with a great intellect.
I see you headed down a dangerous path here, ;)
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The entire reason they made sranc (and had them eat grubs) was to avoid damaging the world so much that it would be uninhabitable. No point of winning free your garden of eden if you nuked it all to ashes, glass, and nuclear winter.
Desperate times call for desperate measures.
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The entire reason they made sranc (and had them eat grubs) was to avoid damaging the world so much that it would be uninhabitable. No point of winning free your garden of eden if you nuked it all to ashes, glass, and nuclear winter.
Desperate times call for desperate measures.
A fair point, but surely it seemed like desperate times at some point during the FA.
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Not until they lost the NG, but even then they decided to hide in Golgotterath.
Maybe before they got sealed into the Arc, but even then they probably figured they had time. For some reason I always got the impression that preserving the world was almost holy to them in some way. After they saw what their pre/landing stunt did they probably didn't want to risk something that catastrophic.
Now though, they may be fearing for their lives. They may fear that someone like Kellhus might be able to defeat the labyrinth that is the Arc - especially after witnessing the years spent trying to hunt down Kellhus' kin... Or that he might otherwise succeed where all others before have failed.
Could have been a totally new thing, or could have been a one-off they had in a closet they were saving for a rainy day. Plenty of possibilities.
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Not until they lost the NG, but even then they decided to hide in Golgotterath.
Maybe before they got sealed into the Arc, but even then they probably figured they had time. For some reason I always got the impression that preserving the world was almost holy to them in some way. After they saw what their pre/landing stunt did they probably didn't want to risk something that catastrophic.
Now though, they may be fearing for their lives. They may fear that someone like Kellhus might be able to defeat the labyrinth that is the Arc - especially after witnessing the years spent trying to hunt down Kellhus' kin... Or that he might otherwise succeed where all others before have failed.
Could have been a totally new thing, or could have been a one-off they had in a closet they were saving for a rainy day. Plenty of possibilities.
Yeah, I am definitely buying them being pretty desperate now. Sure, the No-God being destroyed was a major loss, but not one they couldn't recover from, seemingly.
Kellhus though, he is something I literally do not think they can beat and I think they know it. So, they are trying to throw everything and the kitchen sink at him in the hopes that maybe something catches him off-guard.
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They could always rebuild the NG. The Consult knew that nothing but a unified army of the Three Seas entire would cross the North and their legions upon legions of sranc. This is likely a large part of why they employed skin spies, to prevent that eventuality. They probably started the scholastic wars as well, hoping to permanently separate the Sorcerous Schools, making even more difficult.
Kellhus was able to defeat hundreds of years of safeguards the Consult had been setting up in a mere 20 years. He even created a new gnostic school and made the Mandate holy, which would have vastly increased their numbers and power.
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They could always rebuild the NG. The Consult knew that nothing but a unified army of the Three Seas entire would cross the North and their legions upon legions of sranc. This is likely a large part of why they employed skin spies, to prevent that eventuality. They probably started the scholastic wars as well, hoping to permanently separate the Sorcerous Schools, making even more difficult.
Kellhus was able to defeat hundreds of years of safeguards the Consult had been setting up in a mere 20 years. He even created a new gnostic school and made the Mandate holy, which would have vastly increased their numbers and power.
Yeah, my post was supposed to say "couldn't" that is, they could recover from losing the No-God, given enough time.
They know they can't actually kill Kellhus now, I think. My feeling is that they are just trying to stop his plan (which is hard, because I am pretty sure they know about as much about it as we do).
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I figured out your post ;), no worries.
Given that I think they were trying to kill kellhus and anyone around him (presumably his closest generals and some schoolmen), I wonder what they'll try once they notice Kellhus is nowhere to be seen.
Everyone knows that the ordeal is a meat shield for the schools, but they haven't had much luck destroying the men on foot or the sorcerers. They lost a small handful at Dagliash, the book names several, which I assume is because those were the only losses. Other than the idiocy early with the Vokalati and the Mandate, the rest seem mostly unscathed.
I see two possibility.
The Consult (Inchoroi and Shae&friends) vie directly against The Ordeal as they approach the Fields Appauling (or whatever the correct name is for the plains between the mountains and Golgotterath), using directed, precision strikes targeting cadre of magi during pitched battles then fleeing before they are fully engaged. In effect, slowly bleeding the sorcerous powers on their march.
Or, they see the risk of death is too great (more likely if they don't know where Kellhus is, ie not with the ordeal), and they hide until they Ordeal Approaches Golgotterath itself.
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Thinking about it now though, in light of your points Wilshire, I had thought it almost certain that they would hide.
However, thinking back, doesn't Aurang show up himself? Like, as in, not the Sythese?
Two things are possible here, either Aurang felt that the goad had to be good enough (I think that he was trying to lure Kellhus away from the Nuke, so it would catch more sorcerers) or it was a ruse, some sorcery he knows to only make it look like it was himself in person. Not sure which is more probable. I am thinking though it was not actually him, or if it was he had some kind of "fool proof" escape plan.
It's also curious that Kellhus didn't just teleport to him and kill he straight away...perhaps he knew it was a trap?
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Kellhus never saw Aurang. He was busy excavating Dagliash/Viri.
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Kellhus never saw Aurang. He was busy excavating Dagliash/Viri.
Good point. Which would perhaps lend itself to the theory that Aurang's appearance was to stop him from doing exactly that. It wouldn't be worth the risk to bother to engage simply the Grandmaster of the Mandate (small fish) if that really was his own flesh and not a total ruse.
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I think he was activating the nuke :). I love his only few lines, what a great scene.
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That's an interesting thought, Wilshire. His appearance was really surprising given the fact that the nuke was relatively close. It seems like he'd want to have stayed away as his presence would draw the Schools away from Dagliash instead of leaving them to be blowed up.
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I think he was activating the nuke :). I love his only few lines, what a great scene.
Indeed 8).
I honestly just think he came to see what's up - he's out above the Horde, he stays outside the distance of Saccarees's Cants. Probably just wanted to make sure that Kellhus fell for the trap.
And it hadn't occurred to me until now - because I see Kellhus taking the Tekne for himself as inevitable - but that is a really interesting thought, Wilshire, that the Consult might be lulled into the thought that the Tekne-Nuke got Kellhus (though, that they don't know about his Metagnostic Cant of Translocation seems suspicious to me).
EDIT:
As for the continuing Aorsi/Dagliash speculation, I've always been of the opinion that the Ordeal will lose this Investiture.
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I think he was activating the nuke :). I love his only few lines, what a great scene.
Indeed 8).
I honestly just think he came to see what's up - he's out above the Horde, he stays outside the distance of Saccarees's Cants. Probably just wanted to make sure that Kellhus fell for the trap.
I agree. The nuke seems to be on a timer, so I don't know that it needs someone to activate it.
And it hadn't occurred to me until now - because I see Kellhus taking the Tekne for himself as inevitable - but that is a really interesting thought, Wilshire, that the Consult might be lulled into the thought that the Tekne-Nuke got Kellhus (though, that they don't know about his Metagnostic Cant of Translocation seems suspicious to me).
I also think this is inevitable, but I don't think it's the main point of the GO.
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I think he was activating the nuke :). I love his only few lines, what a great scene.
Indeed 8).
I honestly just think he came to see what's up - he's out above the Horde, he stays outside the distance of Saccarees's Cants. Probably just wanted to make sure that Kellhus fell for the trap.
And it hadn't occurred to me until now - because I see Kellhus taking the Tekne for himself as inevitable - but that is a really interesting thought, Wilshire, that the Consult might be lulled into the thought that the Tekne-Nuke got Kellhus (though, that they don't know about his Metagnostic Cant of Translocation seems suspicious to me).
EDIT:
As for the continuing Aorsi/Dagliash speculation, I've always been of the opinion that the Ordeal will lose this Investiture.
By the end, it seemed like they had, what, 100,000 troops and around 1000 sorcerers? And they have a heck of a Vanguard with the Scalded. The Cannibal Ordeal will surely thin those numbers. As may the Scylvendi. But even so, they should make it to Golgatterath with a sizable army.
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But even so, they should make it to Golgatterath with a sizable army.
To what end though? Knock on the soggomantic door? Even if we imagine that the idea of the Great Ordeal's mundane members as a delivery system, what are all those sorcerers going to do when the reach the Ark?
That's a big mystery there...
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I don't think there's that many sorcerers. I'd guess ~100 per school with 6 schools.
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A big mystery, indeed. Unless Kellhus is planning on building another Barricade, it's unclear what the Ordeal could do against the Ark. Almost makes me wonder if the whole thing is a feint to cover for something else...
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A big mystery, indeed. Unless Kellhus is planning on building another Barricade, it's unclear what the Ordeal could do against the Ark. Almost makes me wonder if the whole thing is a feint to cover for something else...
This. I was literally just thinking about the Holy War, and how it was just a vehicle to get him to Shimeh and his father. The GO is just another vehicle, but what's the real destination this time?
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This. I was literally just thinking about the Holy War, and how it was just a vehicle to get him to Shimeh and his father. The GO is just another vehicle, but what's the real destination this time?
Oh, it's defintely the Ark, but I think Kellhus just needs to be there. He'll probably move to get in the same way that Seswatha did, blast his way in from under this time though rather than sneaking. He might need the sorcerers to help excavate, or hold enough Bashrags at bay while he does. That'd be my guess. None are going to walk away though, but I don't even think Kellhus does, not in the literal sense at least.
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A big mystery, indeed. Unless Kellhus is planning on building another Barricade, it's unclear what the Ordeal could do against the Ark. Almost makes me wonder if the whole thing is a feint to cover for something else...
This. I was literally just thinking about the Holy War, and how it was just a vehicle to get him to Shimeh and his father. The GO is just another vehicle, but what's the real destination this time?
I still thing Golgotterath is the end goal. I suspect he has some plan to get into the Arc, I just don't know what that is.
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Lol - I'm still very much of the opinion that Kellhus, a Dunyain, co-opting the Tekne is the goal, in and of itself. I've very few guesses beyond that and I prefer not to grasp without evidence.
Should the Metameatshield be necessary implicitly to Kellhus's plans... probably something to do with the relationship between sorcerers, specifically, and the Outside.
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Lol - I'm still very much of the opinion that Kellhus, a Dunyain, co-opting the Tekne is the goal, in and of itself. I've very few guesses beyond that and I prefer not to grasp without evidence.
Should the Metameatshield be necessary implicitly to Kellhus's plans... probably something to do with the relationship between sorcerers, specifically, and the Outside.
I'm not separating Golgotterath and the Tekne. I firmly believe he wants the Tekne...the golden coffer, and Kell's reaction to it, was enough to confirm that for me.
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Lol - I'm still very much of the opinion that Kellhus, a Dunyain, co-opting the Tekne is the goal, in and of itself. I've very few guesses beyond that and I prefer not to grasp without evidence.
Should the Metameatshield be necessary implicitly to Kellhus's plans... probably something to do with the relationship between sorcerers, specifically, and the Outside.
I'm not separating Golgotterath and the Tekne. I firmly believe he wants the Tekne...the golden coffer, and Kell's reaction to it, was enough to confirm that for me.
I can't remember the details. But there was a point in that scene where it appeared Kellhus could read what was on the coffer. That plus his understanding the basic concepts of radiation sickness make me believe that the Tekne is indeed a big part of his endgame.
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Lol - I'm still very much of the opinion that Kellhus, a Dunyain, co-opting the Tekne is the goal, in and of itself. I've very few guesses beyond that and I prefer not to grasp without evidence.
Should the Metameatshield be necessary implicitly to Kellhus's plans... probably something to do with the relationship between sorcerers, specifically, and the Outside.
I'm not separating Golgotterath and the Tekne. I firmly believe he wants the Tekne...the golden coffer, and Kell's reaction to it, was enough to confirm that for me.
I can't remember the details. But there was a point in that scene where it appeared Kellhus could read what was on the coffer. That plus his understanding the basic concepts of radiation sickness make me believe that the Tekne is indeed a big part of his endgame.
Hmm. I assumed he had deduced what the countdown meant, but you make an interesting point. How did he know about the radiation sickness. Could it be that Inchoroi has a version of OSHA that makes them put safety warning on the outside of nukes?
As opposed to a bomb (and maybe someone mentioned this) it could be a fuel cell that they modified to explode.
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i wonder what it will mean if the decapitants are 'under Yatwer's jurisdiction' or something. that is, that they might be sleeper agents, or will be able to resist Kellhus authority over them at some point.
Well we know through previous use of the Daimos, that the Ciphrang are bent to the will of the sorcerer who summons them. I.E., they're not going to turn on Kellhus.
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I read through the section where Saubon dies so quickly I didn't even catch the call back to TWP and Mengedda. Wow, how fucking utterly horrifying is that?
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I read through the section where Saubon dies so quickly I didn't even catch the call back to TWP and Mengedda. Wow, how fucking utterly horrifying is that?
It's great. Chills and shivers.
Someone did bring up, I think in The Parts Appalling, that Saubon said he 'd take all damnation for one day as king ;).
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I read through the section where Saubon dies so quickly I didn't even catch the call back to TWP and Mengedda. Wow, how fucking utterly horrifying is that?
It's great. Chills and shivers.
Someone did bring up, I think in The Parts Appalling, that Saubon said he 'd take all damnation for one day as king ;).
Bakker is nothing if not extremely patient. I'm sure he felt incredibly satisfied to close the loop on Saubon.
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Patient. He's fucking diabolical when you think about what he's been planning since TDTCB and just been like "wait and see, wait and see..."
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I read through the section where Saubon dies so quickly I didn't even catch the call back to TWP and Mengedda. Wow, how fucking utterly horrifying is that?
It's great. Chills and shivers.
Someone did bring up, I think in The Parts Appalling, that Saubon said he 'd take all damnation for one day as king ;).
Much as Hugo Chavez actually became El Presidente for life ;D
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Lol - traded it for the hundred Hells?
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I read through the section where Saubon dies so quickly I didn't even catch the call back to TWP and Mengedda. Wow, how fucking utterly horrifying is that?
Maybe the darkest and most horrifying moment in this entire series. Wow.
When Kellhus first excavated the infernal device before it had been adequately described I wondered if it was like a fossilized-in-amber Titirga. Gotta be down there somewhere, neh? :)
When Saccarees pondered contacting Kellhus but didn't I felt like it was some foreshadowing of disaster harkening back to the disaster in the previous book. But then we never heard what came of the confrontation and he's just back there with Proyas at the end? Strange.
What about Wreoleth early in the book? Was it some Topos and the band of Ordealmen that went there became possessed in a way?
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What about Wreoleth early in the book? Was it some Topos and the band of Ordealmen that went there became possessed in a way?
Oh, it's definitly a Topos, but that didn't ever stop Sranc before. No, I think it goes deeper than that, to the fact that it was a larder for the Consult. The Consult must have marked both the place and the people in it somehow, in order to now have Sranc not just kill them all.
Presumably Sibawul bears that mark now.
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Yeah, doesn't it say that the NO-God did something to the Sranc such that they avoid the mark of Wreoleth? I thought it was a race wide hardwire of their brains. Demonstrates the awesome power of the NG pretty well that it is still in place all these years later, and even overpowers the central Srancish compulsions.
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Yeah, doesn't it say that the NO-God did something to the Sranc such that they avoid the mark of Wreoleth? I thought it was a race wide hardwire of their brains. Demonstrates the awesome power of the NG pretty well that it is still in place all these years later, and even overpowers the central Srancish compulsions.
I thought it said that the specific area was marked by some means and that's how Sibawul was also marked, by spending too much time there. I dunno, could be wrong. Can't wait to actually have the book again.
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Wreoleth is the point of biggest confusion for me from this book.
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Wreoleth is the point of biggest confusion for me from this book.
As to how? Or why?
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As to what.
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As to what.
I might be missing the point, but it certainly just seems like a Topos, just a bit stranger than any we saw before.
It would seem to me though that every Topos probably has its own "flavor" of sorts though.
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I think it's different. Don't know what it is, but it's different. It could be a Topos and probably is, but it's marked in some fashion and Sibawul obtained that Mark somehow. How I read it anyways.