The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Great Ordeal => The Aspect-Emperor => TGO ARC Discussion => Topic started by: H on May 17, 2016, 12:44:04 pm
-
Because zero was everywhere, measure was everywhere-as was arithmetic. Submit to the rule of another and you will measure as he measures. Zero was not simply nothing; it was also identity, for nothing is nothing but the absence of difference, and the absence of difference is nothing but the same.
Thus the Survivor began calling this new principle Zero, for he distrusted the name the old Wizard had given it ...
God.
The great error of the Dûnyain, he could see now, was to conceive the Absolute as something passivem to think it a vacancy, dumb and insensate, awaiting their generational arrival. The great error of the worldborn, he could see, was to conceive it as something active, to think it just another soul, a flattering caricature of their own souls. Thus the utility of Zero, something that was not, something that pinched all existence, every origin and destination, into a singular point, into One. Something that commanded all measure, not through arbitrary dispensations of force, but by virtue of structure ... system ...
Logos.
The God that was Nature. The God that every soul could be, if only for the span of a single insight ...
The Zero-God. The absence that was the cubit of all creation.
In Inrithi tradition, the unitary, omniscient, omnipotent, and immanent being responsible for existence, of which Gods (and in some strains Men) are but “aspects.” In the Kiünnat tradition, the God is more an abstract placeholder than anything else. In the Fanim tradition, the God is the unitary, omniscient, omnipotent, and transcendent being responsible for existence (thus the “Solitary God”), against which the Gods war for the hearts of men.
In the Inrithi tradition, the Hundred Gods are thought to be aspects of the God (whom Inri Sejenus famously called “the Million Souled”), much the way various personality traits could be said to inhabit an individual. In the far more variegated Kiünnat tradition, the Hundred Gods are thought to be independent spiritual agencies, prone to indirectly intervene in the lives of their worshippers.
I know that often, people were of the mind that the Solitary God was the true God. I had doubts about that from the get go. Seeing how Yatwer has such power and wed this with Koringhus' revelation that the Zero-God and the Absolute are the same, lead me to the fact that the Kiünnat is the real truth.
This makes sense, since it is the ancient worship, that which is least touched by the tainted and changed Tusk.
The Absolute dwells within your Gaze. You ... a frail, worldborn slip, heavy with child, chased across the throw of kings and nations, you are the Nail of the World, the hook from which all things hang.
But even this metaphor, “nail,” is faulty, a result of what happens when we confuse our notation with what is noted. Like the numeral “zero” used by the Nilnameshi mathematicians to work such wonders, ignorance is the occluded frame of all discourse, the unseen circumference of our every contention. Men are forever looking for the one point, the singular fulcrum they can use to dislodge all competing claims. Ignorance does not give us this. What it provides, rather, is the possibility of comparison, the assurance that not all claims are equal. And this, Ajencis would argue, is all that we need. For so long as we admit our ignorance, we can hope to improve our claims, and so long as we can improve our claims, we can aspire to the Truth, even if only in rank approximation.
The Zero principle, that if you are Zero, everything else is One. This is how you achieve that absolute. Zero fits into One infinity. Therefor, as Zero, you are everywhere, even if you are nowhere. This is how the God, errr, the Absolute is infinite. This is how everything comes together, if you are Zero, all other things are One, that is, apart from Zero. Additionally, Zero is the cubit of creation, because, as every point's origin, it is the fundamental building block of everything. All things start at Zero. In other words, Zero is the ultimate Darkness that Comes Before. There is no more fundamental nature to things. If you are at Zero, you are the fount of Everything. That is the Absolute. That which comes before everything (including itself).
For whatever reason, the Three Seas seemed particularly prone to prophets and their tricks. Where Zeüm had remained faithful to the old Kiünnat ways, albeit in their own elliptical fashion, the Ketyai—the Tribe entrusted with the Holy Tusk, no less!—seemed bent on tearing down their ancient truths and replacing them with abstraction and fancy.
"Fane?" the woman cried, her incredulity so thoughtless, so complete, that feminine timbre blotted out all other sound. "Fane is a fraud, what happens when philosophers fall to worshipping their fevers!"
Oh, yes, indeed. Fane is but the tail end of the Inchoroi manipulation of the Tusk (remember, Fane was Inrithi at first). Inri Sejanus a step on that trail as well. They are all perversions, twists of the Truth faith. Yatwer, Ajolki, and the rest of the Hundred are Deamons. The Solitary God is nothing but an idea.
The true faith is in Zeüm. It's no wonder why they have had no prophets there. They don't need them. They have basically been right the whole time. It's all the Ketyai that have been wrong. And they have been made that way.
The question is, what happens with Mimara? I actually think that somehow, when she gives birth, something miraculous will happen with the child. If Mimara is the Zero point, if she is the cubit, the measure, then what she makes, what she births, must be the True Savior? Maybe, maybe not...
-
Mimara is the closest thing to a true prophet, but only because she . I don't think her child, unless its a girl and has TJE, will necessarily be special.
What makes the Solitary God interesting is really just the Psukhe. What makes the worship of a particular false god change the dispensation of sorcery?
What are the implications of all this for Kellhus? I assume he knew of TJE ... Did this drive him to further madness?
-
Mimara is the closest thing to a true prophet, but only because she . I don't think her child, unless its a girl and has TJE, will necessarily be special.
What makes the Solitary God interesting is really just the Psukhe. What makes the worship of a particular false god change the dispensation of sorcery?
That's a good question. Presumably, if the Solitary God is false, the Psukhe is real of it's own accord. Indeed, we have "proof" if Titirga's muted mark is due to "Water."
I actually can't recall anywhere that we get evidence that the Solitary God is real though, do we? Psuhke aside, of course.
What are the implications of all this for Kellhus? I assume he knew of TJE ... Did this drive him to further madness?
Well, that has been a question for a while though, right?
Did/Does Kellhus know of the Judging Eye? Now we can ask, does Kellhus know what Koringhus figured out? I actually think he might not, since Mimara says she never saw Kellhus with the Eye. That means that it is possible that Koringhus precedes Kellhus into the Absolute.
-
Ugh... there are things I want to ask but the fact that they aren't self-evident requires that I wait for a couple months, I think.
Lol - this draft to ARC to canon artifact is a new twist on my ongoing fate ;).
-
Ugh... there are things I want to ask but the fact that they aren't self-evident requires that I wait for a couple months, I think.
Lol - this draft to ARC to canon artifact is a new twist on my ongoing fate ;).
Further cryptic statement, is further cryptic, haha.
That being said, this is a very rough idea I have, it will take me at least another reread to probably make it intelligible...
-
Sorry, H. HP is right though, Bakker would spend less time obscuring what the actualities of certain ambiguities in the draft than the canon artifact. I don't want to inadvertently give anything away now, in the last stretch, when I could just forget about everything I've read and treat the canon artifact as the truth of all ;).
-
Sorry, H. HP is right though, Bakker would spend less time obscuring what the actualities of certain ambiguities in the draft than the canon artifact. I don't want to inadvertently give anything away now, in the last stretch, when I could just forget about everything I've read and treat the canon artifact as the truth of all ;).
Haha, I'm not upset, I just know that there is only a certain extent to which I can draw this, simply because I am not so well read and smart to unravel deep philosophical meaning.
Back to this idea though, I think there is something to the establishment of a binary here, that God is Zero and the World is One.
Again though, the deep significance is lost on me though.
-
Double post, but hey, I'm a man, I gotta be free.
This conversation between Psatma and Meppa:
"Call her what you will!" Psatma Nannaferi exclaimed. "Demon? Yes! I worship a demon!—if it pleases you to call her such! You think we worship the Hundred because they are good? Madness governs the Outside, Snakehead, not gods or demons—or even the God! Fool! We worship them because they have power over us. And we—we Yatwerians—worship the one with the most power of all!"
Malowebi squelched another urge to call out, to urge the Fanim to spare her, to set her free, then to burn a hundred bulls in Yatwer's honour. The Mother was here! Here!
"Gods are naught but greater demons," the Cishaurim said, "hungers across the surface of eternity, wanting only to taste the clarity of our souls. Can you not see this?"
The woman's laughter trailed into a cunning smile. "Hungers indeed! The fat will be eaten, of course. But the high holy? The faithful? They shall be celebrated!"
Meppa's voice was no mean one, yet its timbre paled in the wake of the Mother-Supreme's clawing rasp. Even still he pressed, a tone of urgent sincerity the only finger he had to balance the scales. "We are a narcotic to them. They eat our smoke. They make jewellery of our thoughts and passions. They are beguiled by our torment, our ecstasy, so they collect us, pluck us like strings, make chords of nations, play the music of our anguish over endless ages. We have seen this, woman. We have seen this with our missing eyes!"
Malowebi scowled. Fanim madness... It had to be.
"Then you know," Psatma Nannaferi said in a growl that crawled across Malowebi's skin. "There will be no end to your eating, when She takes you. Your blood, your flesh—they are inexhaustible in death. Taste what little air you can breathe, Snakehead. You presume your Solitary God resembles you. You make your image the form of the One. You think you can trace lines, borders, through the Outside, like that fool, Sejenus, say what belongs to the God of Gods and what does not—errant abstractions! Hubris! The Goddess waits, Snakehead, and you are but a mote before her patience! Birth and War alone can seize—and seize She does!"
Interesting for several reasons.
First, Psatma actually admits that Yatwer is a demon and I don't think she is wrong. There is no difference between a God and a demon, except relative power levels.
Second, Meppa actually admits that the Gods feast on damnation, essentially.
Third, Psatma renounces Inri Sejenus, another false prophet. His goal, it would seem, was to shackle the 100. Support, perhaps then, for Kellhus' proclamation to Proyas, that prophets "deliver the word of Men to the God."
Notice that Meppa says he has seen how the 100 feast, are demons, yet no where does he says he has seen the Solitary God. This is because, I am increacingly convinced, there is no Solitary God. It is an idea, an abstraction, but nothing else. The fact that the Psuhke does not Mark is happenstance, a fortunate coincidence, nothing more.
I still haven't put all the pieces together, but once this is out in the open, I'm sure someone smarter will.
EDIT: I forgot to add another point. Psatma says that "Birth and War alone can seize" and if we extrapolate this a bit, Yatwer=Birth and Gilgaöl=War, but Gilgaöl also is the "Dread Father of Death." Therefor it is Yatwer and Gilgaöl that basically rule the Outside in the competition for Earwan souls?
As a point to take this further, perhaps this is why if Ajokli fights Yatwer? He wants more of the action.
-
"Fane?" the woman cried, her incredulity so thoughtless, so complete, that feminine timbre blotted out all other sound. "Fane is a fraud, what happens when philosophers fall to worshipping their fevers!"
Quote-ception.
Kal brought up a good point elsewhere, that this quote:
… the ends of the earth shall be wracked by the howls of the wicked, and the idols shall be cast down and shattered, stone against stone. And the demons of the idolaters shall hold open their mouths, like starving lepers, for no man living will answer their outrageous hunger.
—16:4:22 THE WITNESS OF FANE
Could actually be Fane witnessing The Great Ordeal's end? Kellhus' ascension?
In other words, could it be that Kellhus is the Solitary God? That the reason Yatwer deems Fane false, is the very reason he is true? That Yatwer is right, there isn't a Solitary God...not yet. Fane saw the future, which could explain why Fanimry has a "prohibition of all representations of the God." Because that would screw up the timeline, if they could see Kellhus' image as the Solitary God.
This could explain why the Psûkhe has no Mark. It will be the new breed of sorcery, flowing from the new order of Kellhus as God. Oh, let the crack-pottery flow as Water...
EDIT: Post 777, lucky day...
-
I know that often, people were of the mind that the Solitary God was the true God. I had doubts about that from the get go. Seeing how Yatwer has such power and wed this with Koringhus' revelation that the Zero-God and the Absolute are the same, lead me to the fact that the Kiünnat is the real truth.
This makes sense, since it is the ancient worship, that which is least touched by the tainted and changed Tusk.
I don't think Kiunnat is any less tainted by the Tusk. They still follow the Tusk, just not Inri Sejenus's interpretation of the Tusk. So more than likely, they are still taking as scripture the parts the Inchoroi added in.
There was a passage somewhere in the book that made me think the gods (or at least some of them) were Inchoroi. Or, at least, the times when men interacted with gods on the physical plain, the gods were actually Inchoroi. I don't remember where it was in the ARC though.
"Fane?" the woman cried, her incredulity so thoughtless, so complete, that feminine timbre blotted out all other sound. "Fane is a fraud, what happens when philosophers fall to worshipping their fevers!"
Quote-ception.
Kal brought up a good point elsewhere, that this quote:
… the ends of the earth shall be wracked by the howls of the wicked, and the idols shall be cast down and shattered, stone against stone. And the demons of the idolaters shall hold open their mouths, like starving lepers, for no man living will answer their outrageous hunger.
—16:4:22 THE WITNESS OF FANE
Could actually be Fane witnessing The Great Ordeal's end? Kellhus' ascension?
In other words, could it be that Kellhus is the Solitary God? That the reason Yatwer deems Fane false, is the very reason he is true? That Yatwer is right, there isn't a Solitary God...not yet. Fane saw the future, which could explain why Fanimry has a "prohibition of all representations of the God." Because that would screw up the timeline, if they could see Kellhus' image as the Solitary God.
This could explain why the Psûkhe has no Mark. It will be the new breed of sorcery, flowing from the new order of Kellhus as God. Oh, let the crack-pottery flow as Water...
EDIT: Post 777, lucky day...
Interesting thought here, especially when paired with the idea that the passage from the Witness of Fane is actually about the GO.
-
I don't think Kiunnat is any less tainted by the Tusk. They still follow the Tusk, just not Inri Sejenus's interpretation of the Tusk. So more than likely, they are still taking as scripture the parts the Inchoroi added in.
There was a passage somewhere in the book that made me think the gods (or at least some of them) were Inchoroi. Or, at least, the times when men interacted with gods on the physical plain, the gods were actually Inchoroi. I don't remember where it was in the ARC though.
Oh, I believe it is also tainted, but I think the idea behind it does predate the "pollution" of the Tusk by the Inchoroi.
And I have been down on an Ichoroi being who Angeshraël meets and is told by to invade Eärwa.
Interesting thought here, especially when paired with the idea that the passage from the Witness of Fane is actually about the GO.
Another point is that perhaps Water can actually wash away the Mark and this is how Kellhus plans to undo the damnation of all the sorcerers?
-
And I have been down on an Ichoroi being who Angeshraël meets and is told by to invade Eärwa.
Totally agree.
-
And I have been down on an Ichoroi being who Angeshraël meets and is told by to invade Eärwa.
Totally agree.
I actually submitted that as a question for Pat to ask Bakker, but I doubt if he'll answer it...
-
And I have been down on an Ichoroi being who Angeshraël meets and is told by to invade Eärwa.
Totally agree.
I actually submitted that as a question for Pat to ask Bakker, but I doubt if he'll answer it...
I'm super curious to read that interview - especially in light of Bakker's total pre-release silence so far. H, there are precedents for Bakker answering ridiculous world-questions.
-
I'm super curious to read that interview - especially in light of Bakker's total pre-release silence so far. H, there are precedents for Bakker answering ridiculous world-questions.
Oh, indeed. In fact, it was one of those rare times that set me upon the idea in the first place. I still have my doubts that he'll answer, but I'd love to be surprised.
-
Me again, King of the Double Post.
I have a thought, which is probably nothing, but again, is something I alone am not smart enough to reason out.
At a point, the Nonmen discussing Sorweel mention he is under the influence of "the Fertility Principle" or as we know it, Yatwer.
This has me thinking, we are told that the God was fractured into the 100. But why? Well, we do receive possibly something of an answer, from Fane no less, in saying:
And naught was known or unknown, and there was no hunger.
All was One in silence, and it was as Death.
Then the Word was spoken, and One became Many.
Doing was struck from the hip of Being.
And the Solitary God said, “Let there be Deceit.
Let there be Desire.”
——The Book of Fane
Now, a question (of course) is why the God was split. I think that is a question for another time. But realize that what the God is split into is the urges (or Principles) of humans. Why is there a God of Fertility? The Gods don't need to be fertile. Why is there a God of Thievery? Why would the Gods steal? These are all human attributes.
So, when the Nonmen say that Yatwer is the Fertility Principle, they are right. It is a fracture of The God, which lends to Kellhus proclamtion, that Prophets deliver the word of Man to God, not the reverse.
OK, that isn't as lucid as it seemed in my head, but here is the point: what about the Logos? Is there a Logos Principle in the Outside?
-
This topic has me spinning a bit, as well. There are a couple of allusions to the Hundred in TGO.
1) The Survivor collects 100 stones, throws 99 of them, gives the last to the Boy.
2) The last song the Boatman sings:
They did hoist Anarlu's head high,
and poured down its blood as fire,
And the ground gave forth many sons,
Ninety-nine who were as Gods,
and so bid their fathers
be as sons...
Sounds a lot like a creation myth of the Sumerians, wherein one god (can't remember the name) is used for his blood to mix with clay to create man. I've long suspected that the gods were created by man/nonman, and not the other way around. Could be Anarlu is the God, and was sacrificed (somehow) to create the Hundred. So, man/nonman broke God into a hundred aspects/fractions/principles to what... better understand It? Anthropomorphize It?
Unsure how the stones relate, but the numbers can't be a coincidence. Also, to get back to your question, seems like the Logos/reason/whatever-you-would-call-it could certainly be a 'principle' or a 'god', but probably one which is largely ignored by the common man (irony in there). The Dunyain were probably the only ones to have 'revered' it to any great degree. Maybe the great philosophers of Ancient and Near Antiquity, as well, but nothing on a mass scale like Yatwer or Gilgaol.
I think I just went severely off-topic, sorry.
-
I think I just went severely off-topic, sorry.
There is no way to go off-topic in the topic, because I am barely sure what the real topic is! ;)
This topic has me spinning a bit, as well. There are a couple of allusions to the Hundred in TGO.
1) The Survivor collects 100 stones, throws 99 of them, gives the last to the Boy.
2) The last song the Boatman sings:
They did hoist Anarlu's head high,
and poured down its blood as fire,
And the ground gave forth many sons,
Ninety-nine who were as Gods,
and so bid their fathers
be as sons...
Sounds a lot like a creation myth of the Sumerians, wherein one god (can't remember the name) is used for his blood to mix with clay to create man. I've long suspected that the gods were created by man/nonman, and not the other way around. Could be Anarlu is the God, and was sacrificed (somehow) to create the Hundred. So, man/nonman broke God into a hundred aspects/fractions/principles to what... better understand It? Anthropomorphize It?
Yeah, the number of stones is clearly important, yet, I can't figure why.
Could it be, that in killing himself Koringhus is now one of the hundred? I don't know, that sounds preposterous.
Unsure how the stones relate, but the numbers can't be a coincidence. Also, to get back to your question, seems like the Logos/reason/whatever-you-would-call-it could certainly be a 'principle' or a 'god', but probably one which is largely ignored by the common man (irony in there). The Dunyain were probably the only ones to have 'revered' it to any great degree. Maybe the great philosophers of Ancient and Near Antiquity, as well, but nothing on a mass scale like Yatwer or Gilgaol.
Well, that doesn't preclude it not existing though, does it? I mean, it could still exist, just as a very, very minor power?
I don't know, I know this path is important, but I am stumbling down it blind and stupid.
-
Regarding K being one of the Hundred, I'm right there with you. As I have been going on and on to Madness about, I believe Koringhus is, quite possibly, the most important character in the series. He's the one who figured out Damnation, noodled out the Zero-God, figured it all out... then killed himself. And we know his conclusions are true, because the Eye approved. I definitely think he's in the Outside, pulling strings (and always has been, Time not being linear and all). I think the final stone he gives to the Boy is merely symbolic. He (Koringhus) is the final stone, and he threw himself off the cliff (and into the Outside). How's that for a crackpot?
We're all stumbling blind and stupid. How one man can confound so many readers, after all this time, is preposterous and amazing to me.
-
Regarding K being one of the Hundred, I'm right there with you. As I have been going on and on to Madness about, I believe Koringhus is, quite possibly, the most important character in the series. He's the one who figured out Damnation, noodled out the Zero-God, figured it all out... then killed himself. And we know his conclusions are true, because the Eye approved. I definitely think he's in the Outside, pulling strings (and always has been, Time not being linear and all). I think the final stone he gives to the Boy is merely symbolic. He (Koringhus) is the final stone, and he threw himself off the cliff (and into the Outside). How's that for a crackpot?
We're all stumbling blind and stupid. How one man can confound so many readers, after all this time, is preposterous and amazing to me.
My thoughts are pretty much in line with your's.
On how we are all still stumped, I think part of it is how we are constantly missing the forest for the trees and then missing the trees for the forest. Another part is how we are trying to figure out who has it right, when, really, they all have it wrong somehow.
But that might be the whole point though, that Koringhus is the one who is the most right of them all.
-
But that might be the whole point though, that Koringhus is the one who is the most right of them all.
Truth.
-
Lol - what's the new Koringhus-centric religion called, boyos ;)?
I'm withholding judgment on Somnambulist's hypotheses regarding Koringhus. And everything until I get to read the "full-colour TGO" as Somnambulist compares the ARC to the "black-and-white" draft ;). But previously, I didn't agree on Somnambulist's interpretation of the draft.
I do agree, there is some kind of Earwan creation story forthcoming that we've been previously denied - there have been threads regarding Earwa's lack of myths. I believe Somnambulist is talking about Tiamat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat), which actually doubles as "World Parent" and "Chaos" origins (Wiki has reacquainted me but I studied origins of civilization and mythology obessively when I was younger - love me some Mesopotamian cosmology).
-
Bah! Koringus is another broken, failed Dunyain. Though this time the mistake to imbibe Qirri took less time to be fatal than blinding.
Extremely important character? Yes. For the reason cited above. However, he was also deeply, deeply scarred by his years in the darkness. Qirri put him over the edge - though perhaps interesting to note his reaction in light of Kellhus imbibing chanv, which has similar intellectual quickening abilities. A slower death for Kellhus it seems.
-
Bah! Koringus is another broken, failed Dunyain. Though this time the mistake to imbibe Qirri took less time to be fatal than blinding.
Extremely important character? Yes. For the reason cited above. However, he was also deeply, deeply scarred by his years in the darkness. Qirri put him over the edge - though perhaps interesting to note his reaction in light of Kellhus imbibing chanv, which has similar intellectual quickening abilities. A slower death for Kellhus it seems.
Yes, we've gone from the Moe-God to Meta-K.
My opinion mirrors Wilshire here. Koringus had a part to play in the narrative, but I can't imagine he is anything more than what we have seen in this book. I don't think Kellhus will meet him in the Outside, and I don't think he will start directing events from the grave.
I will say that I am not entirely sure of what happened with his suicide (I probably need time to reread and digest it some more). Did he grasp the Absolute? Did he go insane from a combination of Qirri and learning that everything he thought he knew was false in the light of the Judging Eye? This seems the most likely.
-
I would be cool at some point to get a revelation like that, some ascended mortal being becoming the God in the outside... I think the mechanics and metaphysics of Earwa potentially leaves that door open, but I don't think I'll ever be the guy that 'saw it coming'. I'm in favor of more concrete explanations until Bakker gives us more metaphysics rules to speculate with. :)
But that might be the whole point though, that Koringhus is the one who is the most right of them all.
Truth.
He had some pretty deep insights in his brief stay with the world-born. And, he's crazy, which seems to be a key indicator of true revelations. I sure hope we get more from the boy about him.
-
But that might be the whole point though, that Koringhus is the one who is the most right of them all.
Truth.
He had some pretty deep insights in his brief stay with the world-born. And, he's crazy, which seems to be a key indicator of true revelations. I sure hope we get more from the boy about him.
Indeed, I have to wonder if he "role" was to show us the deepness of the "madness" that also afflicts Kellhus?
Especially as we see Koringhus display, what he himself calls, inexplicable compassion, in the same book as Kellhus seemingly inexplicably save Esmenet. Granted, that isn't inexplicable, since we don't know Kellhus' long term plan with regards to Esmenet, but we do see it out of line with him not giving a damn about Theli being killed, or molested (previously), and so on with the rest of the kids though. Even so, we have always had questions about just how compassionate Kellhus really is and then we are shown what Koringhus shows us. Interesting at least.
It's an interesting juxtoposition of sorts though too, walking down the Anasûrimbor line, from Moe, to Kellhus to Koringhus. Something is up with it, but I can't quite place what. Moe being perhaps special in ability, Kellhus being remarked as especially a prodigy, and yet Koringhus seemingly being even more of a prodigy, yet that much more mad and finally his son, being "defective."
Is the point that Koringhus really was the pinicle of the Dûnyain work? And at the pinciple is madness? Something about what Cnaiür said all that time ago, how the Outside leaking into the world is madness? Is that what is happening, perhaps? That as the Anasûrimbor approaches the Absolute, madness afflicts them?
-
2000 years is a seemingly long time. Wonder if Ishual was a topos for all the enslaved women and the uncounted millions of slaughtered sranc.
-
But that might be the whole point though, that Koringhus is the one who is the most right of them all.
Truth.
He had some pretty deep insights in his brief stay with the world-born. And, he's crazy, which seems to be a key indicator of true revelations. I sure hope we get more from the boy about him.
Indeed, I have to wonder if he "role" was to show us the deepness of the "madness" that also afflicts Kellhus?
Especially as we see Koringhus display, what he himself calls, inexplicable compassion, in the same book as Kellhus seemingly inexplicably save Esmenet. Granted, that isn't inexplicable, since we don't know Kellhus' long term plan with regards to Esmenet, but we do see it out of line with him not giving a damn about Theli being killed, or molested (previously), and so on with the rest of the kids though. Even so, we have always had questions about just how compassionate Kellhus really is and then we are shown what Koringhus shows us. Interesting at least.
It's an interesting juxtoposition of sorts though too, walking down the Anasûrimbor line, from Moe, to Kellhus to Koringhus. Something is up with it, but I can't quite place what. Moe being perhaps special in ability, Kellhus being remarked as especially a prodigy, and yet Koringhus seemingly being even more of a prodigy, yet that much more mad and finally his son, being "defective."
Is the point that Koringhus really was the pinicle of the Dûnyain work? And at the pinciple is madness? Something about what Cnaiür said all that time ago, how the Outside leaking into the world is madness? Is that what is happening, perhaps? That as the Anasûrimbor approaches the Absolute, madness afflicts them?
I don't remember the exact wording, but did you take it to mean the Koringhus was the most gifted Dunyain ever, or that he was the most gifted at Ishual?
I think you have some good points here. I have been thinking about the scenes with Serwa and Kellhus (her memories) and it seems like he is displaying something approaching the tenderness that a father would show a daughter. Is this more Dunyain deception? I don't think so. She is old enough to recognize that his smile is for her benefit at one point in the recollection. It seems that if his tenderness was manufactured, he would recognize the point where he could drop the ruse.
-
I think it was strongly implied he was the best in Ishual. I'm tending to think now that each generation of Anasurimbor improves upon the last, incrementally. That or the dice roll on gene distribution for the last few generations was heavily favorible.
-
I don't remember the exact wording, but did you take it to mean the Koringhus was the most gifted Dunyain ever, or that he was the most gifted at Ishual?
I think you have some good points here. I have been thinking about the scenes with Serwa and Kellhus (her memories) and it seems like he is displaying something approaching the tenderness that a father would show a daughter. Is this more Dunyain deception? I don't think so. She is old enough to recognize that his smile is for her benefit at one point in the recollection. It seems that if his tenderness was manufactured, he would recognize the point where he could drop the ruse.
Well, I can't recall it either, the ebook can't come soon enough, but that is definitely the sense I got. Which makes some sense, if we consider that Kellhus was a prodigy as well. I'll try to find it though.
I think part of it was genuine and part of it is deception. Theli's theory of Kellhus is probably pretty close to the truth, supported by (what I think was) Kellhus own reflection that he is the culmination of many different threads (or something like that). Koringhus seems to be also, as we are presented with The Survivor, or different "places" that seem to speak through him. Both are simply what they need to be when they need to be it.
I think it was strongly implied he was the best in Ishual. I'm tending to think now that each generation of Anasurimbor improves upon the last, incrementally. That or the dice roll on gene distribution for the last few generations was heavily favorible.
Yeah, I can't recall exactly what lead me to the idea, but consider also that him and the boy are the only ones left alive, against insane odds. That has to mean he is exemplary in at least some ways...
-
TGO, ARC, pg. 391
He was known–he who had confounded his Elders with his gifts.
One sentence. Pretty strong implication that Koringhus was a prodigy amongst the Dunyain. Interesting that he embraced the darkness that comes before, love, when he saved the Boy, his son. So, if one prodigy is capable of love, could another not be (i.e., Kellhus)? Blurring into that other topic, I think that's why Kellhus went back to Momemn. Some small part of him loves Esmenet.
-
TGO, ARC, pg. 391
He was known–he who had confounded his Elders with his gifts.
One sentence. Pretty strong implication that Koringhus was a prodigy amongst the Dunyain. Interesting that he embraced the darkness that comes before, love, when he saved the Boy, his son. So, if one prodigy is capable of love, could another not be (i.e., Kellhus)? Blurring into that other topic, I think that's why Kellhus went back to Momemn. Some small part of him loves Esmenet.
I'm not disputing that he was a prodigy, only that he somehow surpassed Kellhus--which he may have. I was just wondering if there was actual evidence he did. +1 for the heavy lifting!
-
Well, in as far as actual evidence is concerned, taking into account the Dunyain mission of achieving the Absolute, Koringhus wins hands down. He found the Shortest Path (Mimara) and went to the head of the line. In terms of surpassing Kellhus otherwise, I don't think there's any evidence of that. We have no textual references of Kellhus' superiority among the Dunyain (as far as I remember, anyway), aside from Scott saying in an interview that Kel was a prodigy. I personally believe (though this is just my own feeling) that Koringhus was, in purely Dunyainic terms, superior to Kellhus.
-
Since I've nothing to say (yet) on topic:
2000 years is a seemingly long time. Wonder if Ishual was a topos for all the enslaved women and the uncounted millions of slaughtered sranc.
This didn't seem to be addressed in the narrative but either Ishual should be a topoi or the Dunyain inadvertantly succeeded in "hiding from the Gods" a la Nonmen attempt to "dig deep."
TGO, ARC, pg. 391
He was known–he who had confounded his Elders with his gifts.
One sentence. Pretty strong implication that Koringhus was a prodigy amongst the Dunyain. Interesting that he embraced the darkness that comes before, love, when he saved the Boy, his son. So, if one prodigy is capable of love, could another not be (i.e., Kellhus)? Blurring into that other topic, I think that's why Kellhus went back to Momemn. Some small part of him loves Esmenet.
Lol - I feel the heavy hand o' Fate, Anagke, regarding the Survivor's saving the Boy.
Well, in as far as actual evidence is concerned, taking into account the Dunyain mission of achieving the Absolute, Koringhus wins hands down. He found the Shortest Path (Mimara) and went to the head of the line. In terms of surpassing Kellhus otherwise, I don't think there's any evidence of that. We have no textual references of Kellhus' superiority among the Dunyain (as far as I remember, anyway), aside from Scott saying in an interview that Kel was a prodigy. I personally believe (though this is just my own feeling) that Koringhus was, in purely Dunyainic terms, superior to Kellhus.
To the bold - ZTS post ;).
Otherwise, I don't agree with you but will continue withholding finalizing my opinion until I can read the canon artifact 8).
-
2000 years is a seemingly long time. Wonder if Ishual was a topos for all the enslaved women and the uncounted millions of slaughtered sranc.
This didn't seem to be addressed in the narrative but either Ishual should be a topoi or the Dunyain inadvertantly succeeded in "hiding from the Gods" a la Nonmen attempt to "dig deep."
But Sranc aren't souled, so they shouldn't make a topoi, right? It's only the collective anguish of souled beings that can connect the Inside to the Outside, if I am thinking of it correctly.
On the women, well, I don't think there were probably enough of them to really make a topoi. Either that, or their anguish was diffuse enough that it didn't really wear as harshly on the barrier as it did elsewhere. Or that their suffering was slightly less acute than is what is needed to really make a topoi? Or both?
-
I definitely think think Koringhus would be Kellhus' intellectual superior, all things being equal.
However, Kellhus has quite a leg up on all the Dunyain because he has had so much more tutoring and breadth of experience, that I think a battle of wits/skills would see Kellhus as the victor.
Then again, Kellhus is totally insane, so who knows.
If they both stayed in Ishual their whole lives, I think Koringhus would have eventually surpassed Kellhus.
Might be a hint that Kellhus is not seeking the Absolute, since he hasn't offed himself. And, since it appears he regrets killing Moenghus, that they would have made a good team against defeating the Consult.
-
Depends on if Kellhus was aware that Mimara had the Eye. Through the Eye was the only way Koringhus was able to come to the conclusions he did. Since she has never said, there are a couple of possibilities: 1) Kellhus went through the same thing with the Eye, but came to different conclusions, whelmed Mimara so she wouldn't remember; or 2) did not submit to the Eye, whether or not he actually knew about it. I'm inclined to think option 2, but option 1 would be a great twist.
-
I don't think Kellhus knew enough about TJE to have come up with any proper conclusion, nor that he saw TJE.
Seems to short circuit Koringhus pretty well. Maybe almost completely destroying the before/after thing in a way that sorcery only disrupts.
Zero-God and It seems to be about the same to me. Kor/Kel don't necessarily need the same data inputs to come to the same conclusion.
-
I don't think Kellhus knew enough about TJE to have come up with any proper conclusion, nor that he saw TJE.
Seems to short circuit Koringhus pretty well. Maybe almost completely destroying the before/after thing in a way that sorcery only disrupts.
Zero-God and It seems to be about the same to me. Kor/Kel don't necessarily need the same data inputs to come to the same conclusion.
I think you are probably right about Kellhus not fully understanding or grasping the Eye. He didn't interact with her all that often. I don't remember off the top of my head what Koringhus's interpretation of Mimara's face after the eye opened, but she certainly smashed everything he believed to be true in a matter of minutes.
-
I think you are probably right about Kellhus not fully understanding or grasping the Eye. He didn't interact with her all that often. I don't remember off the top of my head what Koringhus's interpretation of Mimara's face after the eye opened, but she certainly smashed everything he believed to be true in a matter of minutes.
From what Mimara says about never having seen Kellhus with the Eye, I have to doubt he knows of the Judge Eye really.
A question would be though, if he did, would he actually choose that same path that Koringhus took? I doubt it...
-
Then again, Kellhus is totally insane, so who knows.
And acknowledges his insanity. He doesn't trust his own thoughts, which makes a fantastic complication to his POV.
On the Eye and Kellhus, Mimara does have that weird dream about Kellhus in WLW where he says to her something to the effect of "you are the eye that offends."
Whatever that implies, because Qirri is a hell of a drug.
-
Bah! Koringus is another broken, failed Dunyain. Though this time the mistake to imbibe Qirri took less time to be fatal than blinding.
Extremely important character? Yes. For the reason cited above. However, he was also deeply, deeply scarred by his years in the darkness. Qirri put him over the edge - though perhaps interesting to note his reaction in light of Kellhus imbibing chanv, which has similar intellectual quickening abilities. A slower death for Kellhus it seems.
This is essentially how I read it. Though, this is a awesome thread with a lot of great thoughts from H, and Som. I haven't nothing to add, this is the stuff that I leave for greater souls than I. Interesting.
-
One thing I might add. About the 100 rocks, didn't the boy use the 100th rock to hit Serwe the Skin-Spy and send her off a cliff? Thats how I read it anyway.
-
One thing I might add. About the 100 rocks, didn't the boy use the 100th rock to hit Serwe the Skin-Spy and send her off a cliff? Thats how I read it anyway.
I never thought of that. Seems so obvious now you pointed it out. The Survivor gives the boy his last stone, who uses it to finally escape the skin-spy. So, Koringhus saw that coming? (!) Makes me think of the whole benjuka game that Akka had with Xinemus, how he had to substitute a stone for a missing piece, and he thought it impoverished his play somehow. Yet in this case, Koringhus saw the whole benjuka plate, and provided a lowly stone to his son to turn the tables on the Serwe skin-spy (at least to allow him to escape). Pretty fkn cool.
-
One thing I might add. About the 100 rocks, didn't the boy use the 100th rock to hit Serwe the Skin-Spy and send her off a cliff? Thats how I read it anyway.
I never thought of that. Seems so obvious now you pointed it out. The Survivor gives the boy his last stone, who uses it to finally escape the skin-spy. So, Koringhus saw that coming? (!) Makes me think of the whole benjuka game that Akka had with Xinemus, how he had to substitute a stone for a missing piece, and he thought it impoverished his play somehow. Yet in this case, Koringhus saw the whole benjuka plate, and provided a lowly stone to his son to turn the tables on the Serwe skin-spy (at least to allow him to escape). Pretty fkn cool.
I like the comparison Som. Yea, reading the threads, it seems likely that giving the time in the World, Koringhus would've surpassed Kellhus. Also, I never grasped the importance of Koringhus grasping the Absolute and the connection to Zero, that it is. I love this thread!
-
I like the comparison Som. Yea, reading the threads, it seems likely that giving the time in the World, Koringhus would've surpassed Kellhus. Also, I never grasped the importance of Koringhus grasping the Absolute and the connection to Zero, that it is. I love this thread!
Glad you joined us here.
A thought I just had, mind you not one I am really buying, per se, but something possible, is that we know know that dying is a possible route to The Absolute, a la Koringhus. So, it could stand to reason that this is why Moënghus pretty much allowed Kellhus to kill him.
-
Thanks, H.
Yea, but would things Moe did in the world effect his ability to just die and go to the Absolute? I think Koringhus wasn't stained by a whole lot, unless the key here, is that Mimara forgave him. Which brings up others speculation that at some point Mimara will forgive a mass amount of people. Huh, Koringhus was evil in the JE, until Mimara forgave him and he understood the Zero God.
-
My current interpretation is, basically, God is Love.
Yeah, I know. But it does actually make sense and throws a whole bunch of stuff into a new lens.
It's more like a very Darwinian Mother Earth god, which is both transcendent and immanent.
Basically, Koringhus came upon the realization that one of the Dunyain's greatest flaws was "denying the interval between themselves". In other words, they removed passion from themselves to the extent they couldn't experience familial love between parents and children. This is what the boy was "defective" for -- he couldn't deny the interval between himself and his father. Nor could Koringhus do so with his son.
The Sranc become an important metaphor. We see how, en masse, the Sranc begin to function as one thing (the Shroud) instead of many. Koringhus sees that to reach the Absolute, one must simply stop conceiving themselves as "separate from the whole".
All of this tied very directly into the "circuit of watcher and watched". In Earwa, time is more like a rock than a river. Everything has already happened, was always going to happen, etc. I don't think any character or being is capable of changing this -- even the Gods. They can screw around with events in the meantime, but the ends are always same no matter, because the "end" is The Absolute. However, in Earwa, things do not quite exist unless they are WITNESSED. Koringhus hints at this as well. The Earwaverse is basically guaranteed to end in the recollection of the Many into the Whole, Zero-Goddess/Absolute -- which then looks back upon the disparate strands of itself, the "darkness that came before", effectively creating itself.
I suspect that, very early on, the Nonmen were an offshoot of men that worshiped the Ground, while Men worshiped the Sky and/or Sun. Or, conversely, Nonmen were a group of men that evolved into a nocturnal lifestyle, thereby "naturally" worshiping the Ground and Moon. The exact order is open for debate, but it makes a lot sense for the Nonmen's whole style, especially once we realize that earth-ground-nature-oblivion are sort of connected here as being the primordial state of things. Nonmen are pretty clearly a riff on a number of "fairy" folklore, and therefore a strong connection with nature, night, and femininity. Go back and read the description of Onkis now:
Onkis is the Goddess of hope and aspiration. One of the so-called Compensatory Gods, who reward devotion in life with paradise in the afterlife, Onkis draws followers from all walks of life, though rarely in great numbers.
She is only mentioned twice in the Higarata, and in the (likely apocryphal) Parnishtas she is portrayed as a prophetess, not of the future, but of the motivations of Men. The so-called “shakers” belong to an extreme branch of the Cult, where the devotees ritually strive to be “possessed” by the Goddess. Her symbol is the Copper Tree (which also happens to be the device of the ancient Nonman Mansion of Siöl, though no link has been established).
Onkis is also called the Singer-in-the-Dark.
Her idol depicts the severed head of a beautiful woman upon a copper tree.
And her description in the text:
“The idol worked in white marble, eyes closed with the sunken look of the dead. At first glance she appeared to be the severed head of a woman, beautiful yet vaguely common, mounted on a pole. Anything more than a glance, however, revealed the pole to be a miniature tree, like those cultivated by the ancient Norsirai, only worked in bronze. Branches poked through her parted lips and swept across her face—nature reborn through human lips. Other branches reached behind to break through her frozen hair.”
Bunch of stuff starting to slip together, yeah?
Either way, at some point, Men or Nonmen (perhaps unintentionally) fucked it all up. I'm not sure if the "ritual of the Hundred" we hear the Boatman talk about is meant to be taken literally, but it could be. However, I have a strong feeling that the splitting of the Zero-Goddess came as a result of sentience (and also language, which I suspect in Earwa biology are one in the same). The Hundred Gods feed on conscious entities -- the soulless provide no sustenance. However, all of the most popular gods -- and thereby most powerful -- have a pretty sensible hierarchy based on their "proximity to the Zero-Goddess".
Yatwer is at the top of the chain, because ultimately you can't have life without birth (just one reason the Inchoroi are so fucked).
Gilgaol, naturally, comes right after, since War -- or more simply, Death -- is part of the natural equation here.
I don't think Yatwer actually IS the Zero-Goddess, she's just the closest. The reason death comes so close after her is because they symbolize the "split" most acutely.
Also, check out the Kabbalah concept of Tzimtzum for a pretty straightforward explanation of the Zero-God thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzimtzum
Because the tzimtzum results in the "empty space" in which spiritual and physical Worlds and ultimately, free will can exist, God is often referred to as "Ha-Makom" (המקום lit. "the Place", "the Omnipresent") in Rabbinic literature ("He is the Place of the World, but the World is not His Place"[2]). In Kabbalistic interpretation, this describes the paradox of simultaneous Divine presence and absence within the vacuum and resultant Creation. Relatedly, Olam — the Hebrew for "World/Realm" — is derived from the root עלם meaning "concealment". This etymology is complementary with the concept of Tzimtzum in that the subsequent spiritual realms and the ultimate physical universe conceal to different degrees the infinite spiritual lifeforce of creation. Their progressive diminutions of the Divine Ohr (Light) from realm to realm in creation are also referred to in the plural as secondary tzimtzumim (innumerable "condensations/veilings/constrictions" of the lifeforce). However, these subsequent concealments are found in earlier, Medieval Kabbalah. The new doctrine of Luria advanced the notion of the primordial withdrawal (a dilug - radical "leap") in order to reconcile a causal creative chain from the Infinite with finite Existence.
Go back and read Koringhus's death scene now. Consider how his time spent in the darkness, deep in the Earth, prepared him for this revelation -- and how his son was reared in that darkness.
I actually there's some intentional humor here. All the wars, all the faiths and gods and aliens, are missing the point because it's so damn simple. Koringhus is barely outside Ishual for a few weeks, figures everything out, does some drugs and jumps off a cliff -- into the empty arms of Nature.
However, I think Kellhus knows this truth very well, and has been playing his entire game according to it. Those first pangs of emotion way back in PON weren't for nothing. In fact, the idea of a Primordial, feminine nature goddess makes a whole bunch of sense if we view Kellhus as a sort of Positive Satanic Figure (especially if he is, in fact, Ajokli -- the Adversary of the Gods).
I could keep going here because there's a shitload to talk about with this revelation (Mimara and the Judging Eye, Cnaiur and the Scylvendi's weird non-religion, the Inchoroi as a "Race of Lovers"), but the post is already a bit on the large side and I'm still brewing over things.
-
Great, great post FB!! I for one like the idea of it. I like H's idea that Kinuuiet(sp) is the right way to worship. What really draws me to yours is this:
However, I think Kellhus knows this truth very well, and has been playing his entire game according to it. Those first pangs of emotion way back in PON weren't for nothing. In fact, the idea of a Primordial, feminine nature goddess makes a whole bunch of sense if we view Kellhus as a sort of Positive Satanic Figure (especially if he is, in fact, Ajokli -- the Adversary of the Gods).
I know I sound like a broken record, but this is the evidence I originally cited as Kellhus gaining emotion. And, those emotions affecting him in some manner. I do not think that God is Love in Earwa, though. I can't give you a reason why, other than I can't see that being Bakker's endgame with these novels.
“The idol worked in white marble, eyes closed with the sunken look of the dead. At first glance she appeared to be the severed head of a woman, beautiful yet vaguely common, mounted on a pole.
The head on a pole behind me. Another option, The-Singer-in-the-dark, The Darkness That Comes Before.....
Great catches and I love your insight into it all.
-
Thanks man! I have a ton more written notes that I have to go over make coherent still.
I know I sound like a broken record, but this is the evidence I originally cited as Kellhus gaining emotion. And, those emotions affecting him in some manner. I do not think that God is Love in Earwa, though. I can't give you a reason why, other than I can't see that being Bakker's endgame with these novels.
Yeah I'm pretty convinced that the emotional aspect is really, really important. I think the Dunyain were basically running into a brick wall because of it.
And I definitely don't think we'll get some sappy "God is Love!" ending or anything, but I do feel strongly it's going to be a function of the idea. Part of the point of the series (as Bakker claims) is to write from the "male gaze" and then turn everything on its head with a feminine twist. The idea that "God is Love" is a pretty common feminine metaphysical concept, and it fits very much into an "earth-mother" esque thing. And it's still very much a "Bakker version" of the idea -- the love connects people to the Absolute, but the Gaze (as Koringhus starts calling the Judging Eye) is still a very harsh, judging entity. Koringhus notes how the forest below is "endlessly measuring" or whatever, because it's basically natural selection and survival. It ties in without sacrifice, loss, etc. make one stronger.
Also, I don't think it's a coincidence that we learn all this from Koringhus's POV in the final section, with the repetition of "Cuts and cuts and cuts...", only to be introduced to our old friend Cnaiur. I was surprised I didn't catch it the first time honestly lol.
-
And I definitely don't think we'll get some sappy "God is Love" ending or anything, but I do feel strongly it's going to be a function of the idea. Part of the point of the series (as Bakker claims) is to write from the "male gaze" and then turn everything on its head with a feminine twist. The idea that "God is Love" is a pretty common feminine metaphysical concept, and it fits very much into an "earth-mother" esque thing. And it's still very much a "Bakker version" of the idea -- the love connects people to the Absolute, but the Gaze (as Koringhus starts calling the Judging Eye) is still a very harsh, judging entity. Koringhus notes how the forest below is "endlessly measuring" or whatever, because it's basically natural selection and survival. It ties in without sacrifice, loss, etc. make one stronger.
Ok, I feel a whole lot better about that. Mimara is essentially the God walking right now. Onkis is a female diety. So, yea I see how he's giving us 6 books of the male view to have it a flipped on its head by the end.
Question? Do you think the JE is 100% accurate. I believe Mimara even thinks that she only sees the now of things. Wether it's damned now, not the past, nor the future. While I love who she is growing into, I think that bit could hinder her and make her judge too harshly.
Also, I know there has been speculation for awhile now that she can forgive sin/damnation. Would you say that that was confirmed by her forgiving Koringhus?
-
And I definitely don't think we'll get some sappy "God is Love" ending or anything, but I do feel strongly it's going to be a function of the idea. Part of the point of the series (as Bakker claims) is to write from the "male gaze" and then turn everything on its head with a feminine twist. The idea that "God is Love" is a pretty common feminine metaphysical concept, and it fits very much into an "earth-mother" esque thing. And it's still very much a "Bakker version" of the idea -- the love connects people to the Absolute, but the Gaze (as Koringhus starts calling the Judging Eye) is still a very harsh, judging entity. Koringhus notes how the forest below is "endlessly measuring" or whatever, because it's basically natural selection and survival. It ties in without sacrifice, loss, etc. make one stronger.
Ok, I feel a whole lot better about that. Mimara is essentially the God walking right now. Onkis is a female diety. So, yea I see how he's giving us 6 books of the male view to have it a flipped on its head by the end.
Question? Do you think the JE is 100% accurate. I believe Mimara even thinks that she only sees the now of things. Wether it's damned now, not the past, nor the future. While I love who she is growing into, I think that bit could hinder her and make her judge too harshly.
Also, I know there has been speculation for awhile now that she can forgive sin/damnation. Would you say that that was confirmed by her forgiving Koringhus?
I definitely think the JE is accurate in the sense that it's showing the truth of Damnation within the current system. It's really hard to say (I've only read it once and a few parts I went over again) where the line is for "true damnation" -- that is, the Damnation that occurs even if you don't get seized by a particular God, nor do you "sidestep" into Oblivion.
However, I think there's a decent possibility that most -- if not all -- of Kellhus's claims regarding the "rewriting of scripture", such as sorcerors and whores no longer being damned, will end up being true. Mimara is poised to forgive both of those groups, for example, via her own experiences in life and with Achamian (and even Nonmen, what with Nil'giccas).
I think that in some fashion, the nature of Damnation has become "polluted" or something by the existence of the Hundred, who even if created by Men/Nonmen (
Koringhus is a weird example too because he himself can see the Judging Eye, and only when he grasps the core idea of "denying the interval between everything" does the Eye approve. But Mimara forgives him anyway, so...I dunno, lol.
I actually think Earwa is some kind of literal Garden of Eden, but that sentient beings so easily corrupt "nature" (tree of knowledge and all that) that the Zero-Goddess has to be harsh and measuring -- yet forgiving of the weak and disadvantaged. The Inchoroi (and to a lesser extent the Dunyain) are the extreme example of this. They are the far end result of basically removing nature from the equation. They rape in every sense of the word. They've removed any meaning from sexuality beyond indulgence or as a weapon, they've rebuilt their bodies from total artifice, the Ark is implied to artificially "birth" them -- and even the Ark itself is symbolically like a sperm, penetrating the egg that is Earwa and infesting the garden.
The Inchoroi may have been what spurred people to create the Hundred in the first place, or even become them.
Note also that when Koringhus sees the No-God, he describes many aspects we haven't previously attributed, such as a "beauty" for things mechanical and efficient, of violence and domination, etc. The No-God is very much an Inchoroi god.
The whole thing is surprisingly faithful with Tolkien's themes in Lord of the Rings.
-
FB, I like the idea that Kellhus's rewriting scripture so that it comes true. And, yes, I believe Mimara would have to be involved. Hasn't done it yet though, always talking about Akka's damnation, lol.
Well, I believe the 100 are polluted, because thats who they are. "Prophets bring the word of Men to God.", Kellhus says this somewhere. Essentially they were created entirely of man. With all credit going to @H, I agree the ancient men who walked with Gods, walked with the Inchies. I speculated on Westeros, that the Breaking of the Gates was the literal event that created the Hundred. The Inchoroi for that matter have had a hand in everything, with the possible exception of Kiünnat. From the Tusk, to Inri, to Fane, all of them. Deciet after Deciet, so literal prayer was damnation. I think this might be what's in Wert's 2nd blog post. How when first Men came from Eanna to Earwa, those Gods they met were Aurang and the gang.
When does Koringhus see the No-God?
-
My current interpretation is, basically, God is Love.
Yeah, I know. But it does actually make sense and throws a whole bunch of stuff into a new lens.
It's more like a very Darwinian Mother Earth god, which is both transcendent and immanent.
Basically, Koringhus came upon the realization that one of the Dunyain's greatest flaws was "denying the interval between themselves". In other words, they removed passion from themselves to the extent they couldn't experience familial love between parents and children. This is what the boy was "defective" for -- he couldn't deny the interval between himself and his father. Nor could Koringhus do so with his son.
The Sranc become an important metaphor. We see how, en masse, the Sranc begin to function as one thing (the Shroud) instead of many. Koringhus sees that to reach the Absolute, one must simply stop conceiving themselves as "separate from the whole".
All of this tied very directly into the "circuit of watcher and watched". In Earwa, time is more like a rock than a river. Everything has already happened, was always going to happen, etc. I don't think any character or being is capable of changing this -- even the Gods. They can screw around with events in the meantime, but the ends are always same no matter, because the "end" is The Absolute. However, in Earwa, things do not quite exist unless they are WITNESSED. Koringhus hints at this as well. The Earwaverse is basically guaranteed to end in the recollection of the Many into the Whole, Zero-Goddess/Absolute -- which then looks back upon the disparate strands of itself, the "darkness that came before", effectively creating itself.
I suspect that, very early on, the Nonmen were an offshoot of men that worshiped the Ground, while Men worshiped the Sky and/or Sun. Or, conversely, Nonmen were a group of men that evolved into a nocturnal lifestyle, thereby "naturally" worshiping the Ground and Moon. The exact order is open for debate, but it makes a lot sense for the Nonmen's whole style, especially once we realize that earth-ground-nature-oblivion are sort of connected here as being the primordial state of things. Nonmen are pretty clearly a riff on a number of "fairy" folklore, and therefore a strong connection with nature, night, and femininity. Go back and read the description of Onkis now:
Onkis is the Goddess of hope and aspiration. One of the so-called Compensatory Gods, who reward devotion in life with paradise in the afterlife, Onkis draws followers from all walks of life, though rarely in great numbers.
She is only mentioned twice in the Higarata, and in the (likely apocryphal) Parnishtas she is portrayed as a prophetess, not of the future, but of the motivations of Men. The so-called “shakers” belong to an extreme branch of the Cult, where the devotees ritually strive to be “possessed” by the Goddess. Her symbol is the Copper Tree (which also happens to be the device of the ancient Nonman Mansion of Siöl, though no link has been established).
Onkis is also called the Singer-in-the-Dark.
Her idol depicts the severed head of a beautiful woman upon a copper tree.
And her description in the text:
“The idol worked in white marble, eyes closed with the sunken look of the dead. At first glance she appeared to be the severed head of a woman, beautiful yet vaguely common, mounted on a pole. Anything more than a glance, however, revealed the pole to be a miniature tree, like those cultivated by the ancient Norsirai, only worked in bronze. Branches poked through her parted lips and swept across her face—nature reborn through human lips. Other branches reached behind to break through her frozen hair.”
Bunch of stuff starting to slip together, yeah?
Either way, at some point, Men or Nonmen (perhaps unintentionally) fucked it all up. I'm not sure if the "ritual of the Hundred" we hear the Boatman talk about is meant to be taken literally, but it could be. However, I have a strong feeling that the splitting of the Zero-Goddess came as a result of sentience (and also language, which I suspect in Earwa biology are one in the same). The Hundred Gods feed on conscious entities -- the soulless provide no sustenance. However, all of the most popular gods -- and thereby most powerful -- have a pretty sensible hierarchy based on their "proximity to the Zero-Goddess".
Yatwer is at the top of the chain, because ultimately you can't have life without birth (just one reason the Inchoroi are so fucked).
Gilgaol, naturally, comes right after, since War -- or more simply, Death -- is part of the natural equation here.
I don't think Yatwer actually IS the Zero-Goddess, she's just the closest. The reason death comes so close after her is because they symbolize the "split" most acutely.
First off, great post.
Second, welcome to the Afflicted Few.
Now, I like your theory, but I have a feeling that God = Love is not the crux, perhaps just a facet. Is it possible that The God of Gods is as Koringhus says, yet, at the same time, Love is yet the manifestation of that Zero-God? I'm not sure why, but that seems to make more sense to me.
Indeed, I had made a tread earlier this year: Onkis and Siöl - A Copper Tree Connection (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1683.0) and indeed, I think your points are well in line with that I earlier speculated and a great exposition of them. I think there might even be more to it, but I'm not sure I am prepared to try to elucidate them enough yet to post.
Indeed, I am feeling like the Breaking of the Gates was the symbolic Breaking of the God, but I think it's real root is in Angeshraël meeting with "Husyelt" (who I believe was really Aurang) and the "lie" that convinced them to Break the Gates in the first place. The Copper Tree Connection is aided by the fact that we now know that Siöl would have been the first to be overrun by Men, and that we already knew that Cû’jara-Cinmoi's ambition and constant grasping of more, could lead to the Copper Tree being what is now "moving them to forever grasp far more than they could hold" as Onkis is now said to be.
More later, need to organize my thoughts a bit more.
-
Awesome stuff as-always FB, welcome to the party!
re: the Breaking coinciding with the breaking of the God and creation of the Hundred, I've always assumed that the Nonmen worshipped the spaces between the Gods (plural) long before the Cuno-Inchoroi wars. But it could totally be that the practice was adopted after the Breaking.
-
I think your right @profgrage. I think I realized that when I speculated it at Westeros, a little while later, lol. Yea, it doesn't seem the timing matches up.
-
Crackpot!: In the Beginning, God was whole/Zero/Absolute. The Cunuroi, in their attempts to understand God, somehow broke It into 100 Principles to better comprehend it, thus authoring their own (and everyone else's) Damnation. They had no understanding of how to fix what they broke, so they began seeking Oblivion (the spaces between the Gods) to avoid their fate instead. On Earwa, Original Sin was the butchering of God into It's constituent parts, a complication of what was simple. All religion that followed was based on this series of events, thus reflecting only shards of the Truth that was forgotten. And subsequently providing no escape from Damnation for all who followed.
The No-God could also be the Consult's attempt to re-assemble God, or parts of God, but in a way that is obviously incomplete/skewed toward their own salvation.
Told you it was a crackpot...
-
Crackpot!: In the Beginning, God was whole/Zero/Absolute. The Cunuroi, in their attempts to understand God, somehow broke It into 100 Principles to better comprehend it, thus authoring their own (and everyone else's) Damnation. They had no understanding of how to fix what they broke, so they began seeking Oblivion (the spaces between the Gods) to avoid their fate instead. On Earwa, Original Sin was the butchering of God into It's constituent parts, a complication of what was simple. All religion that followed was based on this series of events, thus reflecting only shards of the Truth that was forgotten. And subsequently providing no escape from Damnation for all who followed.
I like it. It could certainly be right, the Nonmen changed beleifs before, going from worshiping oblivion to worshiping Becoming, so it seems plausible.
The No-God could also be the Consult's attempt to re-assemble God, or parts of God, but in a way that is obviously incomplete/skewed toward their own salvation.
Told you it was a crackpot...
What if Koringhus is right, that the God of Gods is Zero? The each God is ~1/100. What if the No-God One?
I don't even know what that means. honestly, it's just some words I thought of.
-
Som, it's not that Crackpot. In fact, it's probably in some way, how it happened. We know that their are no creation myths, therefore at some point the belief of Men/Nonmen created them. Or, the Gods are just an extension of our base desires and therefore munch on the souls of those that act on those desires. I don't know if we'll actually be told when it happened, but that's as good a guess as any.
-
Som, it's not that Crackpot. In fact, it's probably in some way, how it happened. We know that their are no creation myths, therefore at some point the belief of Men/Nonmen created them. Or, the Gods are just an extension of our base desires and therefore munch on the souls of those that act on those desires. I don't know if we'll actually be told when it happened, but that's as good a guess as any.
Totally agree. Som, that's just about the best theory I've seen for what's behind the peculiar metaphysics of Earwa.
-
One thing I might add. About the 100 rocks, didn't the boy use the 100th rock to hit Serwe the Skin-Spy and send her off a cliff? Thats how I read it anyway.
I never thought of that. Seems so obvious now you pointed it out. The Survivor gives the boy his last stone, who uses it to finally escape the skin-spy. So, Koringhus saw that coming? (!) Makes me think of the whole benjuka game that Akka had with Xinemus, how he had to substitute a stone for a missing piece, and he thought it impoverished his play somehow. Yet in this case, Koringhus saw the whole benjuka plate, and provided a lowly stone to his son to turn the tables on the Serwe skin-spy (at least to allow him to escape). Pretty fkn cool.
I definitely agree that the boy threw the 100th rock. I don't think Koringhus saw it coming though. I read it as an almost sentimental passing of the stone, which seems very un-dunyain, however Koringhus does many un-dunyain things, especially in concern to the boy.
-
"How does one learn innocence? How does one teach ignorance? [...] They are the Absolute."
-ANONYMOUS, THE IMPROMPTA
I seen this while browsing another thread. Does anyone have any thoughts on what this could foretell of the Absolute? Is innocence and ignorance the means to reaching the Absolute? I don't think so, because Kellhus strives to dominate circumstance, which would make ignorance irrelevant. Innocence? Yea, scratch that one too. No, I think this is just more of Kellhus's indoctrination from the First Holy War.
-
Crackpot theory time
It seems pretty clear that the Zero point or Zero God's reference to the No God is not coincidental.
So, say it's just played straight. The Zero, the all reference point, is The God. It is everything, unified. The thing that fragmented, the entirety of existence. The No-God is God-As-One. The Sranc, with their brains that run entirely on instinct and have no cognition...they are its slaves because instinct is just the orders you get from the world. The strings that pull on your cognition that you can't see, the play of the world on your brain, these come from the Darkness that comes before. This Darkness is the Absolute is the No-God.
The Dunyain seek to be a self moving soul, but as Koringhus finds out, there is only room for one of those (All Absolutes are the same, no matter where you place the reference point it is still the origin. Put the grid behind anyone's eyes you like, and it'll still be the center), and when he is measured against the all-knowing all-damning condemnation of the Judging Eye he falls far short.
The Judging Eye is the view from zero, the gaze of innocence, judging absolutely and without excuse.
The No-God cannot understand what it is, because the only thing that the origin point cannot see is itself. The Darkness comes before everything, it has strings leading to every mind...except its own. As far as it can tell, it doesn't exist. It has no instincts leading to itself. If cannot see itself with its Eye. It sees a ruined world, but it's bloody hands are forever obscured from it.
So the Gods, Yatwer, Gilgaol, etc, are exactly as we've heard them described. Big fragments of it. All of the Birth-concepts stuck together. They can't see it, because they are a portion of it. Same reason that it can't see itself. They see what comes after, but the No-God has already come before them. They see calamity and blame what they can see, random people.
The souls which most resemble the No-God are those of infants. Entirely innocent, possessing no volition. That's why the Judging eye is housed in one. That's why the No-God's manifestation stops people from being born. When you incarnate it, all of the 'child-ness' goes to one place, instead of flowing to everyone's womb in time, all those souls go to the Whirlwind.
Perhaps the reason that the Inchoroi believe that they can end damnation is that the No-God is everything, and so by changing the world you can change it. Kill enough people, and it loses its ability to blame and curse, to judge and damn. They have harnessed the very measurement that damns them and forced it to war against its own ability to do so.
-
Lot of good speculation in there! I like where you're going with this.
-
this thread is amazing.