Bakker and Tolkien

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mrganondorf

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« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2014, 09:04:20 pm »
I agree that Tolkien shouldn't be the measuring stick.  I still like him though.  :)

Would this be the right place for a Bakker vs Beowulf convo?  Since Beowulf via Tolkien is so big?

Madness

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« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2014, 06:34:50 pm »
Nah all other comparisons are fine.

Comparing things to Tolkien just bothers me for some reason... Probably because all the world sees Tolkien as the unequivocal measuring stick, and I dislike this. Even Asimov and/or Herbert, though widely appraised and highly regarded, are not held to the same mystical standard that Tolkien is so often afforded.

Lol.

I agree that Tolkien shouldn't be the measuring stick.  I still like him though.  :)

Would this be the right place for a Bakker vs Beowulf convo?  Since Beowulf via Tolkien is so big?

Yeah, MG, do it up. How is it Beowulf via Tolkien is so big?
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2014, 10:12:20 pm »
Of the top of my head, all I can conjure is that Beowulf was big for Tolkien, and there's got to be a connection between Grendel/Grendel's Mom/Dragon and Bakker's monsters...at least it feels like there is a connection.  Plus, Beowulf is so uber-warrior, he comes off as a Cnaiur or Yalgrotta.  It's been a while since I read the dang book.

Wilshire

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« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2014, 10:27:48 pm »
Also Tolkein mirrors Beowolf's long hand description of names/families, so I'm told.
One of the other conditions of possibility.


Phallus Pendulus

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« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2014, 08:21:24 pm »
I was reading the Silmarillion the other day, I noticed that the first Elves (those who were directly given life by God and woke up by that lake) were exactly 144, 000.


Cüréthañ

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« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2014, 09:33:11 pm »
I was reading the Silmarillion the other day, I noticed that the first Elves (those who were directly given life by God and woke up by that lake) were exactly 144, 000.

Not sure what to make of this, PP.
Cannot detect any creepy innuendo or sly trolling.
1/10

(But seriously, that is an interesting factoid)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 11:03:03 pm by Cüréthañ »
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2014, 10:12:31 pm »
I was reading the Silmarillion the other day, I noticed that the first Elves (those who were directly given life by God and woke up by that lake) were exactly 144, 000.



Not only that but they were created via grafting and were forced to bow their heads into the 'irreversible fire' b4 migrating past a cafe named "Bacon of the Gates"

Hirtius/Pansa

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« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2014, 04:11:09 am »
I was re-reading WLW last week.  And it struck me that Mimara opening The Judging Eye, and her descriptions of the Scalpoi therein, is very evocative of the Wraith-world that exists in Middle-Earth.  Which makes The Judging Eye... The One Ring?

Also, this has nothing to do with Tolkien, but I noticed that a member of House Biaxi dies in every volume of PON.  But none die in The Aspect-Emperor.  So... I predict that three Biaxis are going to die in TUC. 

Revelations!

The Sharmat

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« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2014, 07:03:43 am »
I was reading the Silmarillion the other day, I noticed that the first Elves (those who were directly given life by God and woke up by that lake) were exactly 144, 000.

Not sure what to make of this, PP.
Cannot detect any creepy innuendo or sly trolling.
1/10

(But seriously, that is an interesting factoid)
Tolkien was a devout Christian and it informed his work. There's really nothing more to it, I don't think.

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #55 on: September 04, 2014, 07:24:30 am »
Tolkien was a devout Christian and it informed his work. There's really nothing more to it, I don't think.

I was referring to PP's humorous quorum posts. ;) Might have missed my mark.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

EkyannusIII

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« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2016, 09:29:11 pm »
Necroing this because I think I caught a Tolkien allusion of sorts.

Cujara-Cin'moi = Ar-Pharazon of the Silmarillion

Reasoning:  Both are kings of vast might and vaster pride who bring doom on themselves and their people by having enough hubris to think that they could deal on equal terms with eldritch abominations.
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

Parsh

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« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2016, 06:11:17 pm »
What's most interesting to me is to look beyond the surface similarities to think about what Bakker has done differently with these elements.

For instance, there are obvious similarities between Nonmen and elves (come before humans, teach some of them who are thus raised above the others, immortal, their civilization waning as humanity waxes, twisted by the Big Evil into orcs/sranc, etc), but the differences are what fascinate me. In Tolkien, the elves, with their immortality, are kind of the wiser, more patient "big brothers" of humanity. While the Nonmen do teach humanity, they also inflict a terrible slavery on them, whether the pits we see in Cil-Aujus or the Emwamma. The thing that struck me first and hardest, though, was the effect of immortality: Nonmen aren't "wise" so much as alien to us; and, of course, they end up being driven insane because of the way that memory degrades over the course of a lifetime. Even their propensity toward betrayal, especially when we're talking about the Erratics: it's like their long lives make the lives of others inconsequential, just a tool to be used to spark their memories.

Or how about Achamian vs. Gandalf? I like the analogy drawn between him in The Aspect Emperor and Gandalf in the Hobbit, but of course it's the differences that are striking. Gandalf is genuinely interested in the success of the quest, while it's a tool for Achamian. In fact, Gandalf genuinely cares about the members of the party, especially including Bilbo, who is basically sent along for his own personal growth. There's a benevolence there with Gandalf, who additionally is kind of "above the fray" and also a bit of deus ex machina with the ways he leaves and returns. Akka, by contrast, has to be saved more often than he saves the party, despite the fact that he does indeed have incredible power at his command. And although it pricks his conscience, at the end of the day he's using them as an ends to achieve a means.

(Thorin Oakenshield and Lord Kosoter, though: pretty much the same.)

Staying with Akka, take him back to the first trilogy. There's a certain similarity between him and LotR Gandalf as well. They're both out to save the world, with deeper knowledge than any of the human characters have, they're both, to some extent, doubted by the powerful, and obviously both wizards. But Gandalf is this sort of wise, knowing guide and mentor who's not QUITE always right, but he's certainly always GOOD, he's always motivated by a higher purpose (he's sent by the Valar to help men and elves, and he remains true to that mission). Compare that to Akka: yes, he's basically a good guy, but he's full of uncertainty, full of mixed motives and just generally a lot more HUMAN than Gandalf ever seems to be. He screws up his personal relationships, he screws up his world-saving duty... we have to be reminded every so often that he IS actually a total badass, because he doesn't show it all that often. Anyway, all of that plays into the differences in the kind of story Bakker is telling. Clear good and evil vs. a very muddy morality. Authority figures who can be trusted to there being very few real authority figures, and each of them having an agenda.

Anyway, just some off-the-cuff thoughts.

Dont Skald Me Bro

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« Reply #58 on: August 07, 2016, 10:17:12 pm »
One obvious parallel that I always got was the Bashrag/Balrog.

I got Mordor vibes from multiple northern locations in TGO, with the most prominent being Ishual, especially with how it was the end of Akka and Mimara's arduous quest. Their resigned, exhausted interactions when first arriving reminded me a lot of Sam and Frodo. I also was feeling like the Survivor and the Boy were going to take over a Gollum role when they were first introduced.

Parsh

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« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2016, 11:33:38 pm »
One obvious parallel that I always got was the Bashrag/Balrog.

I got Mordor vibes from multiple northern locations in TGO, with the most prominent being Ishual, especially with how it was the end of Akka and Mimara's arduous quest. Their resigned, exhausted interactions when first arriving reminded me a lot of Sam and Frodo. I also was feeling like the Survivor and the Boy were going to take over a Gollum role when they were first introduced.

The Bashrag, I thought, despite the homophonic nature of things, was more parallel to the troll in the room with Balin's tomb, with then the Nonman king being that Balrog-equivalent. Cleric kind of played the Gandalf role against the Sranc and Bashrags, except, you know, surviving and rejoining them right away. Still, everybody thought both of them were goners and they both made it out in their own ways.