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Messages - dragharrow

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The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."

« on: November 14, 2018, 08:10:12 am »

Quote from: SmilerLoki on November 14, 2018, 05:30:07 am

Quote from: dragharrow on November 14, 2018, 01:37:56 am
The Inchoroi do refer to it as prophesy. The bird synthese says something like: we must observe all the prophesies, even the false ones. I get that that isn't conclusive. Their knowledge could originate from pure science and have become prophesy in its transmission. I'm trying to imagine what that science would have looked like.

I always took it as them encountering prophesy specifically in Earwa, because it's possible there, since the connection to the Outside is stronger. Once encountered, though, the Inchoroi incorporated prophesy into their designs.

Possibly. I'm not sure I buy it. That line seems to reference the existence of at least one prophesy that the Inchoroi care about that we have not even heard of. I kind of think it suggests the existence of numerous prophesy's that the Inchoroi follow and we have never heard of.

Quote from: SmilerLoki on November 14, 2018, 05:30:07 am

Quote from: dragharrow on November 14, 2018, 01:37:56 am
It's a little hard to talk about because of the time thing but I guess I've always assumed that the Outside proceeds the Inside. In all senses.
The time element is crucial, because it rejects the notion of primacy altogether. It doesn't exist from the timeless perspective.

No come on, that's not true. I get what you are saying, from an ultimate position, looking on the time stream from a "sideways" position, then yes, it is timeless and primacy doesn't exist.

But there are plenty of things in the second trilogy where we can say more about the time elements than just: well this happened because this, etc. There are areas where you can make comments about the way time has become tangled up. You could draw a time weirdness map of the books and it would not be identical to a standard map of the events depicted. The additional information that would appear in the time weirdness map makes questions like primacy relevant.

Quote from: SmilerLoki on November 14, 2018, 05:30:07 am

I also think there is no precedence of the Outside over the Inside or vice versa, they are part of the same construct and intrinsically reliant on one another. As in there is no one without the other.

So there can't be more than one inside then? I don't think there is but I think there easily could be. I think that's the best way of describing my understanding of the outside being prime. I've always thought of the inside as a just a bubble created by the gods in the outside. A place with rules that allow for a greater "clarity of souls". Created that they might eat our smoke.

The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."

« on: November 14, 2018, 01:37:56 am »

Quote from: SmilerLoki on November 13, 2018, 09:57:39 am

It's precisely because such a Tekne artifact exists that I think the Progenitors had a theoretical understanding of damnation and the Outside from the Tekne point of view. I don't think it's prophesy, I think it's a scientific theoretical framework supported be experimental work. Since they were able to create the Inverse Fire, which does interface with the Outside, that framework appears to be workable at least to an extent.

This could be completely wrong, though. It's only my understanding up to this point.

Yeah, I agree that the progenitors of the Inchoroi had to have some knowledge of the existence of damnation and the outside from their Tekne. Otherwise the Inchoroi would not know about it and there would be no reason for their quest.

I still kind of like the idea I tried to sell for how the Inverse Fire worked (before we had seen it) that the Inchoroi were developing some kind of deep freeze suspended animation technology in order to put people under for lengthy space trips. But when frozen the subject was essentially dead, went to hell, and then when they were reconstituted and woke up they got yanked out of hell and back into the inside. I like the idea of a bunch of Inchoroi test subjects waking up screaming about how they just spent eternity in the pit of fire.

Quote from: SmilerLoki on November 13, 2018, 09:57:39 am

I don't think it's prophesy,

The Inchoroi do refer to it as prophesy. The bird synthese says something like: we must observe all the prophesies, even the false ones. I get that that isn't conclusive. Their knowledge could originate from pure science and have become prophesy in its transmission. I'm trying to imagine what that science would have looked like.

Quote from: SmilerLoki on November 12, 2018, 01:55:49 pm

The way I think about it is centered around the timeless nature of the Outside phenomena. Let's consider the Judging Eye, for example. Mimara has it because at some point she is going to have a stillborn child. It doesn't matter when, be it in the past, present, or future, the result, the Eye, is there for all of her life as far as we know. It's the same with Earwa as a whole: whatever makes it special created a timeless phenomena. Whenever that happened (in the past, present, or future), the result is there always. I also feel Kellhus's "the Inchoroi must win" sentiment is closely related to this line of thinking.

This is also why I think that the fall of the No-God in the First Apocalypse might be closely related to the events of the Second Apocalypse, being also of timeless nature. This is, of course, pure speculation.

I basically buy all of that in terms of the time element, but I think my question is still something different. I've always assumed that the whole universe hangs on Earwa. Even if it's true that there's some kind of weird time thing going on where - A therefore B, B therefore C, C therefore A - I still think that the genesis and primacy of Earwa is relevant.

It's a little hard to talk about because of the time thing but I guess I've always assumed that the Outside proceeds the Inside. In all senses.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse

« on: November 14, 2018, 01:17:17 am »

Quote from: TLEILAXU on November 13, 2018, 03:00:20 pm

It was his father who had the dead twin, not Nau-Cayuti himself.

Wow, you're absolutely right. That is a huge misreading on my part. Damn.

Well that blows up my current understanding. I need to do a reread.

The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."

« on: November 13, 2018, 08:24:02 am »

Quote from: SmilerLoki on November 12, 2018, 01:55:49 pm

Quote from: dragharrow on November 12, 2018, 11:27:49 am
Wait I think we do know and I think it does close the world.
It starts that process, yes. It doesn't complete it instantly. Just like you said, the Inchoroi didn't immediately kill themselves the moment the No-God was operational.
Quote from: dragharrow on November 12, 2018, 11:27:49 am
We do know what the No God does to birth.
I believe you misunderstood my point. We know the evident effect of the No-God on birth, that was never in question. We don't know how that effect is achieved. Is it purely a Tekne thing? Is it a metaphysical thing? TUC makes a strong case of it being a disruption of the Great Cycle of Souls (whatever that is), but what kind of disruption? Achieved by what means?

You're right, I did misunderstand your point. That is all very fair.

Quote from: SmilerLoki on November 12, 2018, 01:55:49 pm

This is what I meant by saying we don't know what the No-God does to birth. The point is, we don't know the metaphysical significance of the No-God and its effect, we merely assume the significance exists. The Consult thinks the No-God will help them achieve their goals, but we have no idea how, from their perspective, it's going to do that, not to mention whether they are right to believe so (though so far they seem to be the best at predicting the No-God and its actions)

I'm in total agreement. As far as I know we don't even have any information as to how the Inchoroi received the prophesies that they base all of this on. Their intergalactic quest that drove them to murder the inhabitants of all of these different planets must have been driven by a prophesy that claimed that doing so could close the cycle and save their souls - meaning they have to have received it long before they found Earwa. They must have gotten it out in the depths of unenchanted space. How, and in what way did that happen?

I wish we had learned more about the metaphysics of the Inverse Flame in the last book. It appears to be an object of the Tekne, one that predates the Inchoroi gaining access to sorcery, yet it interfaces with the outside and hell in some way. I'd love details on the metaphysics of a Tekne artifact that can do that.

Quote from: SmilerLoki on November 12, 2018, 01:55:49 pm

Quote from: dragharrow on November 12, 2018, 11:27:49 am
I don't know that sorcery is contingent on the outside the way souls being born or leaving is. I think sorcerers convince "the ground", not the gods. Not exactly what the difference is but they aren't identical.
I believe sorcery is absolutely contingent on the Outside, because its timeless nature allows what comes after determine what comes before. This ties into the Survivor's revelations. Also, just to be clear, the Gods and the Outside are in no way synonymous. Sorcery has nothing to do with the Gods (unlike Psatma and the White-Luck Warrior's abilities).

Fair enough, well said.

This is a little off topic but relevant. Do you think that the "specialness" of Earwa predates the not-special rest of the universe? Or is Earwa's strange metaphysical nature secondary? Something strange that happened to a part of an already existing normal planet in a normal universe?

I always kind of assumed that Earwa was the "center" and probably the beginning of this world. And that that's why it's special. It's unique metaphysics a product of it's special role in the universe. Maybe I've failed to really considered the possibility that the metaphysics of Earwa are something created. A change to the status quo.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse

« on: November 13, 2018, 08:00:07 am »

Quote from: JRControl on August 05, 2017, 10:41:36 am

From what was gleaned via Bakker, the brains that goes into the Sarcophagus needs to be suitable for 'emulation'.

Quote from: JRControl on August 05, 2017, 10:41:36 am

Presumably that's how NG controls the weapon races. A one to many emulator or hypervisor in computer terms, aided by many CPUs in the Ark/Sarcophagus. So someone who is mentally flexible enough to be anyone who needs to be at the given time. A place you might say. Except Kellhus was corrupted by Ajokli for his own ends so the burden falls to Kelmomas who being twin-souled is blind to his own lack of a core identity. We have the slightest evidence of that by how he quickly (re)assumed the role as another member of big K's family and actually thwarted his assassination intentionally. This all reminds me of Peter Sellers actually who was quite strange and claimed to have no identity other than the roles he assumed for acting.

I don't think this follows. You're saying that Kellhus could have been the insertant if he hadn't died or been corrupted? I doubt that. My understanding was that only Kelmomas (of the available options) could have been the insertant - precisely because he was a twin.

The previous No God insertant was also a twin with a dead twin, just like Kelmomas. My understanding was that twins can essentially share a soul. The importance of that being that the soul can both be inside and outside at the same time. The exact metaphysical reason that that is important for the No God isn't clear. But my guess is that it allows the No God to interact/perceive both sides of the gate between the inside and outside. That allows it to follow the important metaphysical ticker tape somehow.

Quote from: madness

Specifically:
Quote from: bakker
And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant.

Yeah I still don't know what exactly to make of this. Perfect quote though madness

The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."

« on: November 12, 2018, 11:27:49 am »

Quote from: SmilerLoki on September 14, 2018, 07:32:25 pm

It's a strange thing. Yes, the No-God does something with birth, though we don't know what. But just by being there it doesn't close the world.

Wait I think we do know and I think it does close the world. My assumption was that Mimara's child was the last that will be born until the No God dies (it just slipped through before the No God started). Or much more unlikely, that Mimara's child is a strange exception, and it passed through the gates based on some metaphysical power we are yet to understand.

We do know what the No God does to birth. While it exists it blocks any soul from coming into the world. It is said many times that during the last rise of the No God, every single baby was born stillborn. The "meat" still worked so the baby's body grew in the womb and the mother went into labor. But with the No God active, no new souls could enter the world. So every single baby was born without a soul, therefore, they were stillborn.

This is talked about a lot. That every baby for... I forget but I think like 8 years... is born stillborn, explicitly because of the No God being active. And there's lots of talk of the No God shutting the gates between the inside and the outside. Cleary for the input the effect is no new babies - what it means for the output is still unclear. When the No God is up I don't know what happens to people who die. Hopefully oblivion I suppose. But since the Inchoroi don't immediately kill themselves when they get the No God going, I think we can safely assume that it isn't oblivion waiting for those who die under its reign.

Quote from: SmilerLoki on September 14, 2018, 07:32:25 pm

Sorcery is contingent on the Outside and still works

I don't know that sorcery is contingent on the outside the way souls being born or leaving is. I think sorcerers convince "the ground", not the
gods. Not exactly what the difference is but they aren't identical.

Quote from: SmilerLoki on September 14, 2018, 07:32:25 pm

the Gods are able to act and were able in the First Apocalypse, I'm pretty sure Ciphrang can still be summoned

Can they? They are briefly perceived I think but I seem to remember a lot of talk of the Gods being abnormally distant, almost unreachable. And I don't think we have any references to Ciphrang in the first apocalypse

Quote from: SmilerLoki on September 14, 2018, 07:32:25 pm

Considering all of this, I don't think it is correct to say that the world is closed in any way.

What about all the references to the No God blocking out the gods. Or being the "bone to choke them". I think he closes the basic soul i/o gate. But to fully close them off forever they need the 144k thing.

The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."

« on: September 14, 2018, 05:29:50 am »

Quote from: Wilshire on September 13, 2018, 02:07:11 pm

Isn't there something about chorae destroying souls? Maybe I made it up lol. If not, I don't know where Kellhus went

no way. Chorae do not destroy a soul and remove it from the game. If they did that would undermine the main metaphysical tension that drives all the factions in the story to go to war over damnation.

We have two inchoroi left, both mages through grafting. The entire purpose of the inchoroi's millennia long campaign through space was to avoid hell.

If they could pick up a chorae and have it incinerate their soul and send them to oblivion instead of hell they would have done it on the spot. They could have skipped all the nonsense with the apocalypses and the no god and just disappeared. No eternity in hell so all good. Maybe they slightly prefer the idea of killing the gods and living forever on Earwa as immortal bio freaks, but that's just a preference. Their guiding purpose is avoiding hell and they'd be happy to die on the spot if it meant avoiding damnation. Or similarly, think of all the failed attempts the nonmen investigated to find oblivion over hell.

In the books, lots of people are concerned by the likelihood they'll go to hell but mages are even more concerned. They fear they'll be damned the worst. If being burnt up by a chorae let you avoid that, then every mage would chill out about their eternal damnation, and also be obsessed with making sure the way they died was by chorae. Every school would have a ritual where old mages get chorae-ed to make sure they go to oblivion instead of hell. We don't see any of that. Akka talks constantly about how he's going to end up in hell, and he never says anything to indicate that he'd prefer dying by chorae than old age, for example.

Quote from: Wilshire on September 13, 2018, 02:07:11 pm

FWIW "dead but not done" to mean can only mean that kellhus is dead in literally every possible sense of the world, but that he still has plans in action. I am certain there will be no further actions committed by kellhus, because yes, the chorae destroyed him utterly. The further clarification that he is 'not in the outside' confirms this beyond questioning.

I feel like it's the opposite. There's no way Kellhus found the rare treasure of oblivion.

-Either he's full on dead and he's in hell in the outside being munched on by demons.
-Or he's full on dead and he's in the outside munching on demons.
-Or he's not really dead, and he pulled some Daimos bullshit to keep himself on the inside. Maybe in the decapitant like people are saying.

But I always thought the idea that Kellhus cheated and is still in the inside in the decapitant or whatever was super crazy. I definitely thought he was done, at least story wise. He's dead and he's not going to be a driving factor anymore. But that requires him going to hell.

So if Bakker says he's not in the outside, that seems like a big reveal to me. That seems to strongly indicate that it's daimos trickery of some kind.

Quote from: Wilshire on September 13, 2018, 02:07:11 pm

Kellhus has gone the way of his father before him - dead, removed from the story, but with some simmering pots left on the oven that might still finish even postmortem without further interaction.

Moenghus is definitely in the outside though. He's in hell getting eaten by demons. He didn't slip by the metaphysics and make it to oblivion.

Quote from: Wilshire on September 13, 2018, 02:07:11 pm

Zaudunyanicon is from whence the referenced information came - that thing some of us put together and got Bakker to show up and talk at last summer.

Aw man, that's awesome. I really wish I could have made it. That sounds so fun

General Q&A / Re: Is There Grace or Forgiveness in TSA / Earwa?

« on: September 13, 2018, 03:32:37 pm »

For I have seen the virtuous in Hell and the wicked in Heaven. And I swear to you, brother, the scream you hear in the one and the sigh you hear in the other sound the same.

The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."

« on: September 13, 2018, 01:58:34 pm »

Sorry to go back to the beginning of the thread but I have to hear more about this!

Quote from: MSJ on February 15, 2018, 07:21:27 pm

This is a quote from the Con. Bakker confirmed his death, but still must have some sort of role to play. I started the thread because if like to hear everyone's thought on what this could possibly constitute. Here's a few of my thoughts I've had on it...

... Oh, and Bakker did confirm he is not in the Outside. Maybe one can't take Bakker for his word and he is wily when answering questions. But, for this thread, he is dead and not done and isn't on the Outside. What ya think about it?

What? He did? Kellhus is not in the outside?

There is zero chance that Kellhus getting burned up by a Chorae would be enough to deliver him to total oblivion. Plus Bakker saying he's not done means that's not really an option anyway. So if he's not in the outside then that confirms that he's got a dirty trick going on with the Daimos or the Ciphrang heads or whatever.

That's really interesting. When did Bakker confirm that? I had totally assumed that Kellhus was falling on the hells as a conquering hunger like he says.

I guess that still leaves that he's cheated his way into some kind of limbo or personal demesne but even that would be in the outside I would think. So hard Daimos trickery that keeps his soul on the inside seems to be by far the most likely option by far. Weird

The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Head on a pole

« on: September 01, 2016, 11:25:17 pm »

Quote from: The Sharmat on September 01, 2016, 08:46:52 pm

I'm pretty sure the Scylvendi are just worshiping the No-God.

I know that's widely accepted but I don't think I buy it

The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Head on a pole

« on: September 01, 2016, 07:58:41 pm »

I have an idea that it's the dead god that the Scylevendi worship.

I also think that it is what the non-men call Anarlû. That's what the nonmen call the god the Scylevendi worship.

And men call it Onkhis, although they seem to be specifically referring to the god now that it is dead, not whatever it was before it died.

The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kelmomas Skills

« on: August 04, 2016, 03:05:47 am »

Quote from: MSJ on July 31, 2016, 02:01:24 am

Well, when Sorweel is in the Holy Deep he remarks that he is outide the reach of Yatwer. So, is assume it's a matter of how deep you dig to escape the gazes of the Gods.

I don't think so. I think that the difference between the Holy Deep and the rest of the mansion is that the Holy Deep is a natural cave, that's what makes it holy.

I think I could find some quotes to back that up but I'll have to do it later.

The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kelmomas Skills

« on: July 24, 2016, 08:13:55 am »

Quote from: Seomus on July 17, 2016, 07:20:39 pm

Now that is an interesting line of speculation to pursue. If going underground distances you in some way from the gods. But the abyss of Ishterebinth didn't strike me as a topos. Nothing...disturbingly unnatural happened (though a deeper read of the Great Ordeal is needed). No hellfire, no seeing your own corpse, no undead dragon thing. I agree he was distances from Yatwar, though he did manage to survive. It's hard to say if Kellhus interferred with Yatwar's plan by sending him to Ishterebinth or not.

Now I'm sure Golgotterah is Topos central.

It isn't going underground that distances you from the gods. It's going into the hollow cavities that already exist in the earth. My read was that digging a hole isn't enough. Only natural pockets in the rock are beyond the vision of the gods.

I would guess that this is because of the central ground theme thing. The ground is metaphysically central. Sorcerers don't fly they walk an echo of the ground. Shaman "command the ground". Yatwer has power over the ground with the earth quakes and the magic mud.

The ground is foundation. In Earwar this is not just a physical truth, it is a spiritual truth. And the ground belongs to the gods. Only those natural pockets in the earth allow you to hide from them.

At least that's what the non-men think. I don't know if they are right, but that is why they worship pockets in the crust.

The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kelmomas Skills

« on: July 24, 2016, 07:54:59 am »

Curethan, Ignoring all the other interesting stuff you said (much of which I agree with) I just want to challenge this.

Quote from: Cüréthañ on July 15, 2016, 01:02:06 pm

It's the only way he can avoid damnation without turning to the consult, imo.

Why would Kellhus ever care about damnation? Existential pain would have no effect on him. He is a place, not a person. I don't think avoiding damnation plays into his pursuits at all.

Quote

I think Koringhus' reaction is basically one of the 2 things a true 'dunyain' would do given the information. Either they would join the Consult to avoid damnation, or I guess commit suicide because of whatever Koringhus does that for.

Again, I don't think so. I think that ultimately a true dunyain shouldn't care. Meaning Koringhus was broken, and Meongus was weak.

Not to imply Kellhus isn't broken also but no true Dunyain would care, and I don't think Kellhus does.

The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Best bits of the Great Ordeal.

« on: July 24, 2016, 07:36:09 am »

I loved the reveal of the tall. From the posts I'm seeing apparently it had already been theorized but I never came across that or forsaw it, It blew my mind.

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