What is the No God? (II)

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SilentRoamer

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« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2014, 12:41:23 pm »
Well in this instance Jenova is the Incu-Holoinas (The Calamity from the Skies) Sephiroth and Cloud would be Aurax/Aurang (born 1000's of years later from the genetic material of the mother.)

Hehehe

mrganondorf

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« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2014, 04:10:02 am »
The fact that sorcery still works leads me to believe the world wasn't shut. Maybe it was partially cut off from Outside, but there had to still be some connection.

Could be that they expected Mog to shut the world, but when the schoolmen still assaulted them they realized they had more work to do.

I hadn't thought of that.  If the Outside were completely cut off, there would be no dreaming either.  Now THAT would really fuck with sorcerers--no more long distance calls.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #77 on: September 18, 2014, 04:08:57 am »
Thinking of this quote from Lovecraft

“The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.”

Maybe the No-God is the entity that has gone mad with revelation.  Not a self-moving soul, but a soul that lacks any 'darkness' that comes before.  Mog can see perfectly what moves him and that seeing creates blindness and terror?

mrganondorf

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Wilshire

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« Reply #79 on: September 24, 2014, 01:29:09 pm »
The No-God is a product of the psukhe
Given what evidence? The Psuke didn't arise until 1000+ years after the death of Mog.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #80 on: September 24, 2014, 02:35:59 pm »
The No-God is a product of the psukhe
Given what evidence? The Psuke didn't arise until 1000+ years after the death of Mog.

blindness - check!
sorcerousish powers - check!
no mark - check!
plausible reason so author can hide big revelation - check!


slamdunk, mog explained, next topic: numbers? how many are there? the answer will surprise you...


i bet the consult fused a bunch blinded heads and hearts together and dumped 'em all in the carapace, making them wild with power, violence, and desperation because of the nearby chorae--situated to keep them salting perpetually


this is the main reason the skinspies were made--the consult have been frustrated in their efforts to breed for the few, so they kidnap presorcerers from the 3seas


also, the blind necromancer is the guy who will reveal all of this in dialogue between proyas and kellhus


alternatively, if chorae are god's eyeballs (like what Mimara experiences staring at the chorae near the end of TJE) then the carapace has 11 eyes on it.  Perhaps this fits Mimara's victory over the Wight--she unleashed the god's gaze, it's greater power forced a return to objectivity


AND mimara learns how to look into one chorae and see out of another, just like the seeing-flame


AND the patriots will win the superbowl

EDIT: of course cujara's head is in there, bakker sticking himself in the limelight

Wilshire

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« Reply #81 on: September 24, 2014, 02:48:21 pm »
Gods can see the Cisharium just fine, just not their sorcerers effects. They don't even know that the NG even existed. If it was someone/thing wielding the Psuke, then it would have a soul and the Gods would see it.

The chorae are what makes the NG a non-sorcerous object. No way a magi of any power would be able to stand in a carapace surrounded by 11 chorae.

We don't know if it didn't have a mark, but given the chorae, that is to be expected regardless.

Its not a plausible way for Bakker to hide revelation. He didn't set up this whole thing for such an easy answer. A lesser writer, maybe.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #82 on: September 24, 2014, 03:05:46 pm »
aw shucks!

i forgot all about the gods being blind to ng
they can see cishaurim?
i was thinkin that mog was blind like a common cish

i maintain that cujara's head is in there!

Wilshire

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« Reply #83 on: September 24, 2014, 03:21:02 pm »
They can see the Cish, but not the Psuke (maybe). My understanding of that whole metaphysical branch is vague at best.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #84 on: September 24, 2014, 04:09:25 pm »
oh and that laser thing mimara did is the same as a heron spear beam.  sil's weapon was just a stick containing the animata of a soul with the judging eye

mrganondorf

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« Reply #85 on: December 18, 2015, 07:11:03 pm »
not sure if this one has been floated...maybe the No-God is some resurrected version of Celmomas?  he is driven made with grief because of all that he has lost, esp his son.  the Carapace is what augments and channels Celmomas' peculiar brand of sorrow which is on the just-right wavelength to shut the heavens.  Mog's journey across Earwa is a doomed attempt to find his son?  Bakker puts so much about fathers and sons in TSA, that's what got me thinking about it.  it would be especially painful for Seswatha if his end goal is to murder his best friend.

if the No-God is in fact an ancient person, i wonder if we will get to read a conversation between the new No-God and Seswatha.  maybe Ses will speak through Akka or Serwa.  it would be a cool way for Bakker to do a big info reveal

H

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« Reply #86 on: December 18, 2015, 07:44:03 pm »
not sure if this one has been floated...maybe the No-God is some resurrected version of Celmomas?  he is driven made with grief because of all that he has lost, esp his son.  the Carapace is what augments and channels Celmomas' peculiar brand of sorrow which is on the just-right wavelength to shut the heavens.  Mog's journey across Earwa is a doomed attempt to find his son?  Bakker puts so much about fathers and sons in TSA, that's what got me thinking about it.  it would be especially painful for Seswatha if his end goal is to murder his best friend.

if the No-God is in fact an ancient person, i wonder if we will get to read a conversation between the new No-God and Seswatha.  maybe Ses will speak through Akka or Serwa.  it would be a cool way for Bakker to do a big info reveal

Well, the trouble with that theory is that The No-God is already risen before Celmomas is dead.

If it's someone, it's probably  Nau-Cayûti, since the timelines match.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

mrganondorf

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« Reply #87 on: December 18, 2015, 07:48:36 pm »
not sure if this one has been floated...maybe the No-God is some resurrected version of Celmomas?  he is driven made with grief because of all that he has lost, esp his son.  the Carapace is what augments and channels Celmomas' peculiar brand of sorrow which is on the just-right wavelength to shut the heavens.  Mog's journey across Earwa is a doomed attempt to find his son?  Bakker puts so much about fathers and sons in TSA, that's what got me thinking about it.  it would be especially painful for Seswatha if his end goal is to murder his best friend.

if the No-God is in fact an ancient person, i wonder if we will get to read a conversation between the new No-God and Seswatha.  maybe Ses will speak through Akka or Serwa.  it would be a cool way for Bakker to do a big info reveal

Well, the trouble with that theory is that The No-God is already risen before Celmomas is dead.

If it's someone, it's probably  Nau-Cayûti, since the timelines match.

haha!  doh!  i have exceeded my quota for stupid for the Friday this.  i might as well postulate that the first No-God was Kellhus in a timewarp

EDIT: maybe the No-God is that White Nose guy who taught Seswatha everything he knows

Simas Polchias

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« Reply #88 on: December 20, 2015, 04:35:41 pm »
Most of the time I think No-God affect god's creation just like chorae affect men attempts to change god's plans. While black whirlwind walks, world is saved from it's chosen flaws (like certain cause and effect instances, kekeke).

So, maybe the 11 choraes in his carapace are not a means of protecting No-God from sorcery, not a way of jailing something monstrous & dangerous inside armor. No, it's just 11 devices, plugged into more complex scheme and jointly turned in the opposite function mode (maybe their number play some significant role, f.e., considering their stereometric mutual location). Instead of guarding the creation and purging the unfit attempts to change it, they strike at creation itself, drilling, rethinking, denying it all or just chosen parts of it.

Thus I suppose the secret of the No-God is so well-hidden because it lies on the plain sight. It's just a simple but elegant life-hacking rack made of nimil, nothing more. What of the voice and all that "blind prisoner" rambling? Every volumetric and heavy but mobile device, assembled for cultural and war goals, needs a driver. Considering the consulty-inchoroiy factor, that driver have a high chance to look like a mix of prisoner in stocks, neuropunctured dunyain captive and hellraiser cenobite. Now it's just a flesh unlucky enough to get in the wrong place in the wrong time.

So, as a secret No-God is empty, it's all on the outside.
(i couldn't resist to make that joke, excuse me)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 08:50:41 pm by Simas Polchias »

Odium

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« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2016, 07:04:41 pm »
I've decided that I feel it is unlikely that Scott has undertaken the task of writing TSA without linking it very intimately to his personal thoughts on the nature of consciousness (Blind Brain Theory). I feel there are certain indications that this is true in the text already, ie, the essential nature of the concept of blindness to the narrative, and Apocalypse as a key word to the entire series. I'm not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if other people have posited that the apocalypse refers to the semantic one Bakker talks about occasionally on his blog.

I'll quote Dragharrow's thoughts in the last thread, as I feel it might help provide context:

Quote
The gods are the blind brain. They don't exist but they believe they do. They are entities in the chaos of the set of all possible things. There is only void but that doesn't stop these potential entities and hungers from experiencing in a rich way. They feel without existing and they are unaware of their own nonexistence. They create the world through anosognosia just as humans create meaning through anosognosia.

But the no god is the opposite. He is an eye focused on his own nonexistence. He can see that he is the result of calculations, see that he has no soul or agency. Somehow, in doing this, he can instigate a new genesis. Thats probably why he's so desperate to know what we, the blind, do see.

We already know that Earwa occupies a special place in its cosmos, and that the goal of the Inchoroi is to shut it off from the Outside, where the gods dwell as not-quite-alive entities blind to their own existence. There are many allusions to the linguistic nature of sorcery and its relation to the voices of the gods themselves. I feel like the Apocalypse the series refers to is both conventional and semantic, where the structures upon which the sorcerous languages are based will collapse, and like the gods themselves cease to have meaning or pull on reality. Another Dragharrow quote to help me express myself here:

Quote
Sorcery is like Wittgenstein's conception of language games except it goes beyond language. Meaning games and truth games. We like to think that when we inquire into truth we are doing something something objective but we aren't. Truth is up for grabs and we manipulate it with whatever tools are at our disposal for selfish animal reasons. Science, philosophy, religion and common sense are all the same. They are just sets of rules for the games we play with truth.

(Viramsata is another example of this idea on Earwa)

I feel like the gods and their agency are somewhat illusory, as Bakker posits that all subjective meaning we attribute to life is a powerful illusion brought on by our brain's inability to see its own machinery. I could be misquoting Bakker, but he once stated that TSA takes place in a universe inverting our own, where there is objective truth in God, damnation, and so on. Earwa is unique in the sense that the onta can be grasped, and manipulated with language, and the Solitary God has been fractured into a hundred aspects by the blind brain of humanity fragmenting the one true God into digestible packets of meaning. (this is my interpretation)

The Inchoroi have discovered this strange quirk about Earwa, where they can escape Hell by shutting it off from the Outside. They've also discovered the way to do this in the No-God, which I postulate is a machine that takes souls and strips them of their meaning. In some way when enough souls have had their tethers cut, something will happen to uncouple Earwa from its place in this inherently meaningful cosmos and reduce it to a place where the illusions have all been broken. I've also postulated that the No-God's engine is a soul that has somehow been fixed in the chorae-studded sarcophagus.

I'm unable to find the exact post, but Lockesnow pointed out in a thread somewhere the similar timelines of Nau-Cayuti's disappearance and the rise of Mog-Pharau. I feel this is because he is the being that was placed there, and that the ultimate ulterior motive of Achamian's progressively distorted Nau-Cayuti dreams will show us that he was indeed captured to be made the No-God's vessel. Likewise, I believe Kellhus has realized this and is guiding the Ordeal to Golgotterath to assume his throne as the next vessel of the No-God, this time one that can harness its power for motives we'll have to wait till TGO to find out.

Somewhere on this forum or elsewhere, I recall seeing a hint dropped by Bakker that Achamian's dreams all had subtle purposes in the narrative besides the ones made obvious by their placement. At Mengedda, I believe we get a taste of how the Whirlwind's pseudo-awareness is asking the questions of a mortal mind stripped of the meanings that guide it. This is a complex idea to foreshadow, so I believe Scott pulled it off by suggesting that the No-God's questions mirror those that Achamian's own conscience asks itself, wrapped within the context of his insecurity regarding Esmenet's budding interaction with Kellhus:

Quote
Esmenet laughed. “No, you fool. I sa—”
WHAT DO YOU SEE?

...

Somehow, he could feel her cock her head, the way she always did when struggling to articulate something that eluded her. “About the way he speaks … Haven’t you—”
I CANNOT SEE
“No,” he wheezed. “Never noticed.” He coughed violently.

...

“Anyway, Kellhus …” she continued, lowering her voice. Canvas was thin, and the camp crowded. “With everyone whispering about him because of the battle and what he said to Prince Saubon, it struck me—” TELL ME “—before falling asleep that almost everything he says is either, well … either near or far …” Achamian swallowed, managed to say, “How do you mean?” He needed to piss.

Esmenet laughed. “I’m not sure … Remember how I told you how he asked me what it was like to be a harlot—you know, to lie with strange men? When he talks that way, he seems near, uncomfortably near, until you realize how utterly honest and unassuming he is … At the time, I thought he was just another rutting dog—”
WHAT AM I?
“The point, Esmi …”

There was an annoyed pause. “Other times, he seems breathtakingly far when he talks, like he stands on some remote mountain and can see everything, or almost everything …” She paused again, and from the length of it, Achamian knew he had bruised her feelings. He could feel her shrug. “The rest of us just talk in the middle somewhere, while he … And now this, seeing what happened yesterday before it happened. With each day—”
I CANNOT SEE
“—he seems to talk a little nearer and a little farther. It makes me—Akka? You’re trembling! Shaking!”

Quinthane suggested I check out the Anaxophus dream that goes wrong at the end of TTT. Given the way Anaxophus imitates the No-God's own questions, I feel it could like it lines up decently with my hypothesis. It also offers a potential explanation of the No-God speaking through the Weapon Races in their many thousands: they are beings who have already had the illusions stripped from them, nothing more than automatons that act on the impulses fed to them by their brains. As the No-God breaks down these illusions for other souls, they too ask themselves its questions.

Sidenote -- I believe the idea of the No-God possessing a living vessel is supported in the text by: the continued exploration of Nau-Cayuti's fate upon being left in Golgotterath alive for special torture, the description of the No-God's epicenter as a sarcophagus which implies someone's burial, the precedent for the achievements of the Tekne as focusing on the modification of living beings. Perhaps there are few other iffier indicators. In my opinion, it explains Kellhus' potential motives beyond the unlikelihood of him wanting to save the world for no particular reason, a trope that Bakker could eagerly subvert in his effort to deconstruct the fantasy genre.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 07:06:47 pm by Odium »