[H]

Chapter 7:

"Did you believe those charges?"
"Of course not!"
The Holy Aspect-Emperor frowned as if troubled by the vehemence of his denial. He lowered his gaze to the fire twirling in the arcane octagon of his hearth.
"But why would that be, when they are true?"

As Bolivar talked about, Kellhus throws Proyas a real curveball here.

And so did the ill-fated General earn a second flogging, as well as everlasting shame in the scripture that would survive.

Hmmm, scripture that would survive?  So, the Great Ordeal will become Holy?  A hint perhaps of what Kellhus is really after?

Far more numerous were what Eskeles called Ursranc, a species bred for obedience. "Like dogs to wolves," the Schoolman said. They seemed somewhat taller and broader than their wild cousins, but aside from their freedom, they were really only distinguished by the uniformity of their armour: hauberks of black iron scale. The Scions could only guess at their numbers, since they not only crawled throughout the column whipping and beating their more wolfish kin, but also patrolled the surrounding plains in loose companies of a hundred or so—the way Men would.

We've discussed this before, but I do wonder if Ursranc are just bred with each other until the result was a "better behaved" Sranc, or if there are really some kind of Sranc-Man hybrid?

"I think," Zsoronga said, "and by that I mean think... that you are what they call narindari in the Three Seas..." His body seemed to sway about the stationary point of his gaze. "Chosen by the Gods to kill."
"Kill?" Sorweel cried. "Kill?"
"Yes," the Successor-Prince replied, his green eyes drawn down by the frightful weight of his ruminations. When he looked up, he gazed with a certain blankness, as if loathe to dishonour his friend with any outward sign of pity. "To avenge your father."

I have my doubts about this though.  What is the WLW for then?  No, I think there is more to Sorweel's role.

"What does the Mother expect? The Gods are children and we are their toys. Look at you sausages! They cherish us one day, break us the next." He held out his arms as if to mime Mankind's age-old exasperation. "We Zeümi pray to our ancestors for a reason."

I wonder if that truly works in Earwa?  Presumably it does, your ancestors can save you from damnation?

For in truth, all the Men of the Ordeal in their countless, shining thousands were little more than a vehicle for the safe conveyance of the Schools.

Wow, really?  Quite a revelation just tossed in there, off-hand, in a random paragraph.

[Bolivar]

And so did the ill-fated General earn a second flogging, as well as everlasting shame in the scripture that would survive.

Hmmm, scripture that would survive?  So, the Great Ordeal will become Holy?  A hint perhaps of what Kellhus is really after?

I remember another mention in TJE about the stories would survive. Reminds me of the first trilogy where we know some of the characters survived, but what the host ended up becoming was something far different. Seems safe to say the same will probably happen here, despite everything stacked against the Ordeal's favor. Does this also suggest the third series won't be just a reenactment of The  Sagas? I keep getting the feeling the second apocalypse will not be the same as the first.

"I think," Zsoronga said, "and by that I mean think... that you are what they call narindari in the Three Seas..." His body seemed to sway about the stationary point of his gaze. "Chosen by the Gods to kill."
"Kill?" Sorweel cried. "Kill?"
"Yes," the Successor-Prince replied, his green eyes drawn down by the frightful weight of his ruminations. When he looked up, he gazed with a certain blankness, as if loathe to dishonour his friend with any outward sign of pity. "To avenge your father."

I have my doubts about this though.  What is the WLW for then?  No, I think there is more to Sorweel's role.

It's self serving that Zsoronga would jump to that as his interpretation. Earlier he answers Sorweel's question about entering the Outside:

“But what if your …your family is damned?”
  The Successor-Prince watched him appreciatively. “Trempe us mar—”
  “Then you must do everything in your power to discover what the Gods do want. Everything.”

He's pushing him towards Yatwer and the interpretation of assassination. I'm starting to think Zsoronga is a part of the group of people Sorweel has been coincidentally surrounded by to push him in a certain direction. And I also think the Anasûrimbor are the ones leading him in that direction. They give him Porsparian and Eskeles  and Kayûtas pairs him with Zsoronga, despite what an obvious bad idea that is.

So I see two reasons why both Sorweel and the WLW seem to have the same mission:

A) The series begins with Maithanet speculating the Consult will sow discord in the South to demoralize TGO. The Consult are behind Nannaferi, whereas Sorweel truly is the champion of Yatwer. Later on, he seems to genuinely speak with the goddess, whereas Nannaferi just hears a an unattributed voice, perhaps one of Aurang's glamours? I think this scenario plays well into Bakker's obsession with the gnostic duality of the demiurge and the true, abstract, mysterious God.

B) Nannaferi and the WLW really are directed by Yatwer, whereas the Anasûrimbor are trying to manufacture that with Sorweel. This goes with H's ideas on Kellhus looking to dominate the Outside.

“He … he … made a face, her face, in the earth. And —I swear to you, Zsoronga !— he gathered … mud … spit, from her lips. He rubbed it across my chee—”
  “Before the council?” Zsoronga asked, astonished eyes shining from a dubious scowl. “Before the Anasûrimbor named you one of the faithful?”
  “Yes! Yes! And ever since … Even Kayûtas congratulates me on my … my turning.”

This reminds me a lot of God Emperor of Dune, where there was an objective to make someone invisible to prescience  (the ability to look into the future and predict what would happen). Seems like that's what's being done to Sorweel more than anything - immunity from Dunyain readings.

[Blackstone]

So I see two reasons why both Sorweel and the WLW seem to have the same mission:

A) The series begins with Maithanet speculating the Consult will sow discord in the South to demoralize TGO. The Consult are behind Nannaferi, whereas Sorweel truly is the champion of Yatwer. Later on, he seems to genuinely speak with the goddess, whereas Nannaferi just hears a an unattributed voice, perhaps one of Aurang's glamours? I think this scenario plays well into Bakker's obsession with the gnostic duality of the demiurge and the true, abstract, mysterious God.

B) Nannaferi and the WLW really are directed by Yatwer, whereas the Anasûrimbor are trying to manufacture that with Sorweel. This goes with H's ideas on Kellhus looking to dominate the Outside.

You have some interesting thoughts here. Perhaps Sorweel becomes the WLW. As I interpreted it, the current WLW is just a guy who had a normal life one minute, and then the next he was semi-possessed by the White Luck. He leaves his wife a child and they die when their tenement collapses. Perhaps after fulfilling the mission to the extent possible, the White Luck transfers to another body. Sorweel would lack the "old man strength" the current WLW got from Psatma, but maybe there's a way around that as well.


When it says, "as well as everlasting shame in the scripture that would survive," what do you all think is the implication of this statement? I can think of three possibilities:
1. The GO has scribes recording as they go, which in turn becomes scripture. The GO is victorious but is decimated and some of it makes it's way back to the Three Seas with intact writings.

2. The GO fails. The Second Apocalypse happens, and some scripture remains in the aftermath.

3. The GO succeeds, large volumes of scripture return to the Three Seas, but after hundreds of years, little of it remains and the omniscient narrator is speaking about the far future.

[Bolivar]

Here's the Judging Eye quote I referenced above that also alludes to surviving scripture:

Vast herds of sheep and cattle, bred solely to accompany the march, were also beaten across the horizon, so many that some Men of the Ordeal began calling themselves ka Koumiroi, or the Herdsmen—a name that would later become holy.

Things only become scripture because they are written down and people believe them. No one's going to care if the No-God is raining down destruction or if the Great Ordeal brings about the Semantic Apocalypse and the death of meaning. So this is where I buy what H is selling:

Much like the First Holy War succeeded, destroyed the Cisaurum, and gave Kellhus dominion over the mundane world, The Great Ordeal likewise succeeds, destroys the Consult, and gains Kellhus dominon of the Outside.

Whatever it is, I think it's safe to say The Great Ordeal is not what it appears to be and serves some other purpose like the First Holy War did. The later chapters have been convincing me more and more of that lately.

[MSJ]

Here's the Judging Eye quote I referenced above that also alludes to surviving scripture:

Vast herds of sheep and cattle, bred solely to accompany the march, were also beaten across the horizon, so many that some Men of the Ordeal began calling themselves ka Koumiroi, or the Herdsmen—a name that would later become holy.

Things only become scripture because they are written down and people believe them. No one's going to care if the No-God is raining down destruction or if the Great Ordeal brings about the Semantic Apocalypse and the death of meaning. So this is where I buy what H is selling:

Much like the First Holy War succeeded, destroyed the Cisaurum, and gave Kellhus dominion over the mundane world, The Great Ordeal likewise succeeds, destroys the Consult, and gains Kellhus dominon of the Outside.

Whatever it is, I think it's safe to say The Great Ordeal is not what it appears to be and serves some other purpose like the First Holy War did. The later chapters have been convincing me more and more of that lately.

I agree and concede that H probably has the right of it. Its what makes sense, and I like your comparison of the GO and First Holy War, and how the hid an alternative agenda. Still, you have to admit, if there is Holy scriptures of the GO then in the eyes of Earwanians Kellhus is indeed a Savior.

[Bolivar]

 
I agree and concede that H probably has the right of it. Its what makes sense, and I like your comparison of the GO and First Holy War, and how the hid an alternative agenda. Still, you have to admit, if there is Holy scriptures of the GO then in the eyes of Earwanians Kellhus is indeed a Savior.

I agree and that's what makes this series so engrossing: there's room for both scenarios to be right. My reading is that Kellhus' only goal is to attain the Absolute, to which all other ends are subverted. It would make sense if the Earwans see Kellhus as having become one with the God when this comes to fruition, regardless if that's what actually happens when this comes to fruition.   I actually speculate that the third series is The Self-Moving Soul or The Solitary God. But it's possible for Kellhus to be an amoral manipulator-tyrant while still "awakening the God" as Moenghus puts it. This is the ultimate mystery of Earwa, the Dunyain, and the Inchoroi, as summed up by Moenghus, the paradox that the World can be open yet closed at the same time.

Maybe the third series will be Achamian/Mimara/Kelmomas trying to defuse this lie, inadvertently bringing about the Second, Semantic Apocalypse and the death of meaning (while Sakarpus, Zeüm, and Jek try to destroy the Empire).

[H]

I agree and concede that H probably has the right of it. Its what makes sense, and I like your comparison of the GO and First Holy War, and how the hid an alternative agenda. Still, you have to admit, if there is Holy scriptures of the GO then in the eyes of Earwanians Kellhus is indeed a Savior.

Sure, a "savior" as in, ended the Consult, but a true savior, that is one who is actually invested in saving the populace from damnation, I don't think so.

I agree and that's what makes this series so engrossing: there's room for both scenarios to be right. My reading is that Kellhus' only goal is to attain the Absolute, to which all other ends are subverted. It would make sense if the Earwans see Kellhus as having become one with the God when this comes to fruition, regardless if that's what actually happens when this comes to fruition.   I actually speculate that the third series is The Self-Moving Soul or The Solitary God. But it's possible for Kellhus to be an amoral manipulator-tyrant while still "awakening the God" as Moenghus puts it. This is the ultimate mystery of Earwa, the Dunyain, and the Inchoroi, as summed up by Moenghus, the paradox that the World can be open yet closed at the same time.

Maybe the third series will be Achamian/Mimara/Kelmomas trying to defuse this lie, inadvertently bringing about the Second, Semantic Apocalypse and the death of meaning (while Sakarpus, Zeüm, and Jek try to destroy the Empire).

Recall that in one of the WLW chapters, we are literally told by the "narrator" that the Great Ordeal is nothing more than a vehicle to get The Few to Golgotterath.

I think there is a fair chance that Mimara's child is the one who the third series will revolve around.  Probably fighting the Godly-Kellhus to restore Earwa back to how it was.