[TGO Spoilers] The Gods

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MSJ

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« on: July 13, 2016, 09:09:13 pm »
ARC thread here.

First post in ARC thread:

Quote from: MSJ
I'm beginning to believe there is whole lot more going on with Onkis and Ajokli. Particularly, that Ajokli is more like a Loki figure, manipulating the Gods and Men to his own purpose. Maybe he is trying to take control of the Outside, but take a closer look at his entry in the glossary.

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Ajokli—The God of thievery and deception. Though listed among the primary Gods in The Chronicle of the Tusk, there is no true Cult of Ajokli, but rather an informal network of devotees scattered across the great cities of the Three Seas. Ajokli is oft mentioned in the secondary scriptures of the different Cults, sometimes as a mischievous companion of the Gods, other times as a cruel or malicious competitor. In the Mar’eddat, he is the faithless husband of Gierra.

Take note of the bolded, sometimes described as a companion of the Gods? I just believe there is more here and would love your thoughts. Here is Onkis's entry and her obvious connection to TDTCB and Nonmen.

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Onkis—The Goddess of hope and aspiration. One of the so-called Compensatory Gods, who reward devotion in life with paradise in the afterlife, Onkis draws followers from all walks of life, though rarely in great numbers. She is only mentioned twice in the Higarata, and in the (likely apocryphal) Parnishtas she is portrayed as a prophetess, not of the future, but of the motivations of Men. The so-called “shakers” belong to an extreme branch of the Cult, where the devotees ritually strive to be “possessed” by the Goddess. Her symbol is the Copper Tree (which also happens to be the device of the legendary Nonman Mansion of Siol, though no link has been established.)

The bolded brought me to flip through and see what the glossary had to say about Nonmen, here is the part that is intriguing.


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Nonmen—At one time the pre-eminent race of Eärwa, but now much reduced. The Nonmen call themselves ji’cûnû roi, “the People of Dawn,” for reasons they can no longer remember.

The People of Dawn and they can no longer remember why they call themselves that, huh. The dawn of the Gods? Is Ajokli some great Nonman whom ascended to God-Hood and is manipulating them to try and avoid damnation for him and his brethren? I think Locke nailed the Onkis part of the equation, but what about Ajokli? What makes him so damn special?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2016, 08:27:12 am »
Just started a re-read and came across this little gem. Its Kellhus and Proyas first scene. I love the way Kellhus refers to TDTCB/Onkis here.

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Nersei Proyas was but a rind in his eyes, a depth as thin as a heartbeat was long. Kellhus could have reached out and behind him, manipulated the dark places of his soul. He could have summoned any sentiment, any sacrifice.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 10:04:25 am by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2016, 03:26:59 pm »
Onkis is a compensatory god. I can't imagine that the efforts of the Dunyain "please" her, then.

How does one offer devotion in life to Onkis?
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H

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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2016, 03:55:45 pm »
Onkis is a compensatory god. I can't imagine that the efforts of the Dunyain "please" her, then.

How does one offer devotion in life to Onkis?

Be ambitious in an instinctive way, as opposed to calculated and logically?  (Therefor embracing the Darkness the Coems Before, rather than the Logos?)
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

CondYoke

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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2016, 05:22:21 pm »
Onkis is a compensatory god. I can't imagine that the efforts of the Dunyain "please" her, then.

How does one offer devotion in life to Onkis?

Be ambitious in an instinctive way, as opposed to calculated and logically?  (Therefor embracing the Darkness the Coems Before, rather than the Logos?)
Sounds like Mimara- especially the way Kohringus sees her.

MSJ

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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2016, 09:10:45 pm »
Yea, and one wonders what a God would think of Kellhus doing their job for them, so to say. TDTCB, is Onkis's domain and probably wouldn't take kindly to any meddling.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2016, 08:33:47 am »
I think what makes Ajokli special is he can see what the other gods can't, whatever that is.

Wilshire

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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2016, 12:33:28 pm »
I think what makes Ajokli special is he can see what the other gods can't, whatever that is.
They why of it is what's important though. What makes him able to see? Maybe he's not the same kind of being that all the other Gods are. Not to say he isn't a God in some sense, but if the Hundred are just big Ciphrang, may he something else entirely.
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themerchant

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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2016, 07:52:03 pm »
In the Elric series there is a trickster as well i think that helps Elric, Balo who tricks and confuses the gods and plays his own game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Trickster_gods

maybe some clue in these references?


Cüréthañ

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« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2016, 02:18:22 am »
The only real explanations for Ajokli being able to see the Consult is that he remains connected to Earwa in some way when the No-god is risen or that he was originally an Inchoroi meta-ciphrang.  Thus his time-sight includes the ends/origins of the No-god.
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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2016, 03:26:35 pm »
Just thought to isolate the pieces:

- On Ajokli: all of this conjecture regarding Ajokli "seeing more" than the other Gods is based off the vision Issiral has in WLW of talking to the OG Ajokli Narindari, right? There are no more pieces to that puzzle? I just don't think it's clear how much or little exactly the other Gods do perceive to provide a baseline to what Ajokli perceives.

Agencies of the Outside:

- Zero-God
- Solitary God
- God of Gods
- Aspects of the God of Gods; The Hundred; Principles
- Ciphrang

What are the thoughts on distinguishing the actuality of these agencies and their expression in the world?
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Cosi

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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2016, 11:21:11 pm »
I thought Zero-God, Solitary God, and God of Gods all were different ways of talking about "all the agencies of the Outside" (as well as the Dunyain concept of "The Absolute"). Maybe "unified" to lesser or greater degrees.

I think Ciphrang and The Hundred are basically the same thing. Agencies in the Outside capable of manipulating souls. The big difference I see is that Ciphrang don't seem to have the same perceptual weirdness as the gods (seeing the future, not seeing the souless). Although that might just be because they are currently Inside, rather than Outside. Maybe perception in the Outside is tied to soul rather than place ("soul became place" in TTT, though that's probably not strictly relevant). When you look at a soul in the Outside, you see that soul's whole existence, from creation to destruction. But you can't see stuff that doesn't have a soul. Which explains why the gods can't see Sranc.

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2016, 01:22:39 am »
Yeah the gods can see sranc. This is confirmed in WLW, I think, when the narrative talks about storks tracking them and alerting Sorweel's people of their presence. They are described as 'lies made flesh'.

edit; I have a short, if rather dense, mathematical allegory of my understanding of how the hundred connect to Earwa via souls which I could edit and post if there is interest.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 01:24:40 am by Cüréthañ »
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Cosi

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« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2016, 01:24:47 am »
Yeah the gods can see sranc. This is confirmed in WLW, I think, when the narrative talks about storks tracking them and alerting Sorweel's people of their presence. They are described as 'lies made flesh'.

Huh. Is it just the No-God they're blind to then?

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2016, 01:27:38 am »
It is alluded to a couple of times that the no-god, the first apocalypse and the consult are all pretty much blind spots for the Hundred.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.