[Madness]

Finally sat down and read through the preview with my coffee this morning.

Found a probably mundane mistake: "mother and sons" where it likely should read "mothers."

It's unreal the images he conjures with so few words. Even the line with that error: people drowning in Momemn trapped beneath stone. "Thousands wailing."

I've only read them through once but the only thing that stood out in chapter one was Esmi setting the WLW on Kellhus? I don't recall this.

It seems to me that that's what was going on in TGO when Kelmomas returns to Esmenet's room one night and she's there talking to the Warrior, about paying "any price." There are other scattered musing in her POV across TGO wondering how the Warrior managed to take on a half-Dunyain with such ease.

I guess Serwa wrecked the place but there's little mention of any of the events of the final showdown so to speak.

I suppose in mentioning it, we'll simple revive this controversy.

But for future generations: my bet has always been that Serwa sings sorcery despite the Agonic collar. Otherwise, it seems like there was no waiting to see who the victors were, Intact or otherwise. Serwa probably just helped Sorweel and Moenghus GTFO, rather than be killed randomly by spazzing Nonmen.

What about Meppa? Did he drown...?

Other thought: Bakker opens the book by getting rid of some of his arena's, chapter 1 ends the Momemn line through Gods' cataclysms; chapter 2 says goodbye to our Nonmen friends at Ishterebinth. This helps the Consult numerical goal along as well, huh...

My guess is that Meppa lives still but who knows with Bakker.

And Momemn is but one city, albeit the New Empire's capital. There's a line in ch. 1 regarding Esmenet asking Kellhus to drop her at Sumna because she had rallied forces there. Though, certainly, the Tally lowers.

Well that was aggravating.  Trying to read it on mobile is torture.  You only read every half page, giving just enough so you kinda follow but so little that it's more frustrating than anything else.

Reading it on mobile was a non-starter for me. I tried it a couple times.

I must say, the lamentations of the Abomination-Child are most amusing. The Prince of Hate has a great sense of humor.

Indeed. Not-so-smart Kelmomas. You courted the trickster and are upset that you've been deceived, despite all your learning to that exact effect. Irony !

Yeah but that quote doesn't appear is what i am saying. Not in that format.

“Yes, Esmi. I returned for you.”

A couple pages earlier from the point you two have been exploring.

× Did anyone notice in the What has come before part it said Moe fled Ishual.

I didn't read the WHCB but I did notice that this one is written differently than its forebears.

×These books fucking rock.

Agreed !

[MSJ]

Indeed. Not-so-smart Kelmomas. You courted the trickster and are upset that you've been deceived, despite all your learning to that exact effect. Irony !

Right, which many of us believed. But, what's Ajokli's endgame here? It seems as if his goals coincide with Kellhus, but that's not a definite. I think its important that Ajokli is mentioned as a companion to the Gods in the Glossary. I think that could be a clue.

[Francis Buck]

Indeed. Not-so-smart Kelmomas. You courted the trickster and are upset that you've been deceived, despite all your learning to that exact effect. Irony !

Right, which many of us believed. But, what's Ajokli's endgame here? It seems as if his goals coincide with Kellhus, but that's not a definite. I think its important that Ajokli is mentioned as a companion to the Gods in the Glossary. I think that could be a clue.

To the bolded, I'm beginning to think Ajokli has no end-game - or rather, his end-game is nothing more than to continually undermine the actions of the Gods. This fits in with the trickster quality, and even perhaps the trickster-hero archetype (the most popular Western example of this is probably Loki, and I doubt the similarity in names are a coincidence).

However, Ajokli's association with hatred makes this more complex, and lends him a more Satanic quality, at least in the broad sense of "The Adversary" in Judeo-Christian myth.

While many characters in the series (really all of them to a certain degree) display hatred, the ones which first come to mind for me are Cnaiur, Kelmomas, and Aurang. But of the three, it's Aurang who seems the most purely hate-driven. Cniaur's hatred is targeted at Moenghus, and thereby Dunyain in general, and while he's not exactly friendly, he does make human connections, often in spite of himself. More importantly, the core of his hatred comes from a hatred of himself, which I think must end up being an essential part of his arc.

Kelmomas hates almost everyone aside from Esmenet (whom he arguably just hates in different way), but so much about that character's nature is a mystery that it's effectively impossible to figure out without new material.

Aurang, on the other hand, is characterized almost exclusively by hatred. His POV is consistently drawn as spiteful and contemptuous of literally everything other than those directly associated with the Consult (though we NEVER see him actually thinking about any individual members of the Consult, instead he thinks only of "Golgotterath" in general).

No idea if these ruminations are even relevant since we still don't even have a firm idea of what the Gods are, so personality traits may just be character's having "aspects" of different gods, which pretty much all of them do regardless (no character perfectly aligns into the same qualities of the Gods we have seen, aside from perhaps the No-God and Kellhus).

It may be worth noting though that Shauriatas is described almost purely through hatred, but again the sheer lack of knowledge makes it wide open.

[generalguy]

Whale Mothers breed Dunyain. Esmenet bred Dunyain. The Ark is described as a once living thing, has qualities both aquatic and whale-esque (Nau-Cayuti trying to break a gigantic rib bone in the Seswatha dream). The Ark/Esmi is the Darkness in which Kellhus can "hide".

The Ark is a Tekne super-whale mother?

I wonder if the Ark itself is in fact still a Sentient force, possibly manifest as Shauriatas? Would fit into the idea of a Demirugic figure, an entity which (through ignorance and blindness) has mistakenly come to believe it created the World...

Easier than that my dude, Kellhus has worked out that saving his family is cool and good with the Judging Eye or w/e he considers it. See Koringhus saving his kid as being holy. They are his ticket to getting out of being judged unholy or damned.


9 dimensional chess.

[Odium]

- What is everyone's interpretation of "to the Idol more fearsome than its God." in the opening to the first chapter?

[TLEILAXU]

The Inverse Fire I guess.

[Madness]

Right, which many of us believed. But, what's Ajokli's endgame here? It seems as if his goals coincide with Kellhus, but that's not a definite. I think its important that Ajokli is mentioned as a companion to the Gods in the Glossary. I think that could be a clue.

To the bolded, I'm beginning to think Ajokli has no end-game - or rather, his end-game is nothing more than to continually undermine the actions of the Gods. This fits in with the trickster quality, and even perhaps the trickster-hero archetype (the most popular Western example of this is probably Loki, and I doubt the similarity in names are a coincidence).

Yeah, many a real world myth would suggest that Ajokli just wants to fuck shit up. That we have this history in-text of Ajokli "switching sides," as it were, (companion of/enemy against) could easily just mean that people who aren't fucked over by Ajokli perceive and recount their stories as if Ajokli was on their side (or the side of the gods, if there was some "morality tale," a lesson to be learned/taught, therein).

9 dimensional chess.

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, General Guy .

- What is everyone's interpretation of "to the Idol more fearsome than its God." in the opening to the first chapter?

The Inverse Fire I guess.

The Ark itself, perhaps?

[Odium]

I'm sure it's related to the Inchoroi, I just wonder what Bakker's interpretation was when he wrote it.

[MSJ]

Madness, FB, yea, that would seem most likely. While I think there is more to it and there's a story there. I just don't think we're likely to get it.

[Francis Buck]

The Ark itself, perhaps?

The Ark was my first thought, but it could be multiple things (what's new). The No-God - as in the Sarcophagus itself - could be interpreted as an Idol of the No-God, for example, or alternatively, Kellhus himself could be the Idol of the God/No-God/Whatever.

I didn't think of the Inverse Fire as MSJ suggested, but it's definitely possible given the way it does seem to be the object most precious to the Inchoroi (even the skin-spies refer to themselves as Keepers of the Inverse Fire). Well, aside from perhaps the Heron Spear...

[themerchant]

First off the song is shite, i'd never get the clubs bouncing.

Secondly it is talking about the arc i think or the ark.

[Duskweaver]

I feel like an "ancient Kuniuric harvest song" is very unlikely to be referencing the No-God, since by the time Mog-Pharau actually walked, the Kuniuri were no longer in a position to be singing songs about agricultural work. Laments about stillborn children maybe, but not much else.

No, the song logically dates from the time of the First Great Ordeal, when Kuniuric men were "lured away" to join Celmomas II's holy war against the Consult 20 years before the birth of the No-God.

Personally, I think the Idol in the song is simply War, more fearsome (to the Kuniuric farmer women whose husbands just up and left) than Gilgaol himself.

[Madness]

Yay, Duskweaver !

[MSJ]

FB, thought you would find this interesting. From Koringhus.

“As much as they resembled the Dûnyain, the Shriekers were actually their antithesis, a race honed to give perfect expression to the darkness that comes before. Where the Dûnyain reached for infinity, the Shriekers embodied zero.”

Excerpt From: R. Scott Bakker. “The Great Ordeal.” The Overlook Press, 2016-07-12T04:00:00+00:00. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

[locke]

Yeah I just heard that Bit in my listening to the audio book. Makes me think the zero God theorem from later in the novel is a complete red herring . Koringhus found it as impossible as nonmen to suicide so he needed the delusion the judging eye temporarily offered him to do it.