[TUC SPOILERS] Thoughts about the overall story, ending etc

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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #75 on: July 10, 2017, 04:55:14 am »
I am a wayward mod (I'm too miserly with my time for message boards lately), but for what it's worth I think spoiler tags are not necessary in this thread at this stage. And it's a pain to read.

Madness only asked for spoiler tags until release anyway.

But yeah, spoiler tags on anything TUC content until the 6th at least.

Thank you :).
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

MSJ

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« Reply #76 on: July 10, 2017, 08:04:36 am »
Finished. I'll give more thoughts later, but, I really hope there is a 3rd series. Just so many unanswered questions, things left unexplored and plots that was left hanging.

I do think Kellhus, as part of his pact with Ajokli (I knew there was more to Ajokli and mentioned this several times, I like the idea that dead Kellhus is Ajokli), was going to destroy the Consult and "save humanity". I don't think that makes him a good guy in anyway, shape or form. But, was his plan. Ultimately, he was duped, like everyone else in the series. Oh, Kelmommas is blind to the Gods because he was always going to be the No-God. For one exception, Ajokli. This was explained when Ajokli took over Kellhus. Because, the Ark was a Topos, the biggest, worst one on Earwa. Thus, closest to hell, that's why Ajokli wasn't blind to the No-God. I'm not sure if Kellhus being salted was part of his plan, I don't think so, but possible.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #77 on: July 10, 2017, 08:09:41 am »
Finished. I'll give more thoughts later, but, I really hope there is a 3rd series. Just so many unanswered questions, things left unexplored and plots that was left hanging.

I don't think you've anything to fear, in that regard. I think Bakker has pretty clearly stated that there is going to be a third series of two books, possibly three; in fact, I think in his Reddit AMA, he mentioned that the sequel was even well underway. I might be wrong on that last thing, though. There's definitely going to be more to the series.

MSJ

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« Reply #78 on: July 10, 2017, 09:15:24 am »
I don't think you've anything to fear, in that regard. I think Bakker has pretty clearly stated that there is going to be a third series of two books, possibly three; in fact, I think in his Reddit AMA, he mentioned that the sequel was even well underway. I might be wrong on that last thing, though. There's definitely going to be more to the series.

Yea, just a matter of when, and what route it takes.

I think Kellhus's ultimate plan was to become a God and dominate the Outside, maybe killi g the hundred. If so, him being salted would be no accident. But, frankly, that's not the feeling I got reading the scene. Felt like he was going to kill everyone and destroy the Ark/carapice and put an end to the threat of The Consult. Only, I think Ajokli being The Trickster led him into being salted. One problem with this though. What does Ajokli gain by killing Kellhus and the No-God walking? Nothing. If anything there stands a chance the the Outside will be sealed and he'll be left howl g at the gates. A lot to digest and definitely need to reread.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #79 on: July 10, 2017, 10:49:20 am »
Yea, just a matter of when, and what route it takes.

I think Kellhus's ultimate plan was to become a God and dominate the Outside, maybe killi g the hundred. If so, him being salted would be no accident. But, frankly, that's not the feeling I got reading the scene. Felt like he was going to kill everyone and destroy the Ark/carapice and put an end to the threat of The Consult. Only, I think Ajokli being The Trickster led him into being salted. One problem with this though. What does Ajokli gain by killing Kellhus and the No-God walking? Nothing. If anything there stands a chance the the Outside will be sealed and he'll be left howl g at the gates. A lot to digest and definitely need to reread.

I definitely need a reread too, but at one point, Kellhus does state that he made a pact with Hell and I presumed that meant that he would essentially rule Hell, having traded the world for that.  Perhaps I misinterpreted though.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #80 on: July 10, 2017, 11:10:48 am »
I definitely need a reread too, but at one point, Kellhus does state that he made a pact with Hell and I presumed that meant that he would essentially rule Hell, having traded the world for that.  Perhaps I misinterpreted though.

Sounds right. I just don't understand what Ajokli gets out of duping Kellhus. Or...are we just interpreting it wrong? Does Ajokli leave Kellhus when he sees Kel because the threat of the Chorae? But, as Kalbear said at Westeros, Chorae doesn't effect the Gods and we have instances of this, such as Cnaüir having a Chorae when inhabited by Gilgoal. I just don't see what Ajokli has to gain by deceiving Kellhus? Or, that is the plan? That's the 3rd option. Kellhus is salted and goes onto rule Hell. But, at the cost of the No-God walking also. Very confusing.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #81 on: July 10, 2017, 11:31:34 am »
Sounds right. I just don't understand what Ajokli gets out of duping Kellhus. Or...are we just interpreting it wrong? Does Ajokli leave Kellhus when he sees Kel because the threat of the Chorae? But, as Kalbear said at Westeros, Chorae doesn't effect the Gods and we have instances of this, such as Cnaüir having a Chorae when inhabited by Gilgoal. I just don't see what Ajokli has to gain by deceiving Kellhus? Or, that is the plan? That's the 3rd option. Kellhus is salted and goes onto rule Hell. But, at the cost of the No-God walking also. Very confusing.

Yeah, I haven't really managed to unravel just what the plan was there...certainly, we do know that Chorae have no effect on gods, so I don't see why Ajolki would feel he had to leave Kellhus.  But that part is so confusing, I am not sure he ever really did leave him.  Perhaps Ajolki, in his hatred for the other gods, wants to see them die.  Prince of Hate indeed, so he would want the No-God to walk.

Yet, was Kel in his plans?  It's hard for me to figure that both Kellhus and Kel are in league with Ajolki, although something like that sure does have a "trickster god" ring to it.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #82 on: July 10, 2017, 11:38:26 am »
No, I don't think Kel was in his plans at that moment. He was just able to see him, is how I interpreted it. Yet, say Kellhus went back for Kel, knew Kel was the No-God, he did call him a abomination. And, maybe this was his way of ensuring he did indeed go to hell. Knew Esme would release him. Its classic Bakker, that's for sure.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Heavenfall

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« Reply #83 on: July 10, 2017, 11:44:45 am »
There was a scene where a child attacks a resting scylvendi, stabs him to death in a tent. The scene ends with a female-looking skinspider dealing the final blow to the man with her man-like hands, and then bids the child come with her. At first I thought this was Kelmomas, but now I'm not so sure that it wasn't the crab-hand child without a name.

I guess it being Kelmomas makes more sense because he had to go from being chained in a tent to the Dunyadin-Consult's Golden Hall where the Mutilated would want him to kill Kellhus if they failed to convince him (a wild run-on sentence appears!). But if the Mutilated had captured Kelmomas, why didn't they just box him right away to re-create the No-god? At the center of their power with a hundred tears of god and the No-god to back them up, not even Kellhus and whatever possessed him would stand a chance. Not to mention it would pretty much instantly demoralize/sap the strength of the Great Ordeal. Or am I to assume that they captured the boy but he was able to escape and play with them the same way he did back in the palace? Of that, at least, there was no indication. Maybe the Mutilated really needed the Judging Eye to birth the eventuality of the No-god.

But it being the crab-clawed child also fits since last we saw him he was in the Scylvendi camp running for his life. Arguably he wouldn't just kill someone without reason, but maybe he just needed food and was making it look like someone else settled a grudge. But why would the child go with the skinspider? Some mad dash at hope because he knew the "BAD" consult that had killed his people had captured some of them?

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« Reply #84 on: July 10, 2017, 11:49:22 am »
No, I don't think Kel was in his plans at that moment. He was just able to see him, is how I interpreted it. Yet, say Kellhus went back for Kel, knew Kel was the No-God, he did call him a abomination. And, maybe this was his way of ensuring he did indeed go to hell. Knew Esme would release him. Its classic Bakker, that's for sure.

Yeah, I don't think little Kel had really anything to do with Ajolki, in reality.  Perhaps his fascination with Ajolki was the due to his "fascination" with Kellhus, since they seem to have been in league for quite a while.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #85 on: July 10, 2017, 12:01:14 pm »
There was a scene where a child attacks a resting scylvendi, stabs him to death in a tent. The scene ends with a female-looking skinspider dealing the final blow to the man with her man-like hands, and then bids the child come with her. At first I thought this was Kelmomas, but now I'm not so sure that it wasn't the crab-hand child without a name.

I guess it being Kelmomas makes more sense because he had to go from being chained in a tent to the Dunyadin-Consult's Golden Hall where the Mutilated would want him to kill Kellhus if they failed to convince him (a wild run-on sentence appears!). But if the Mutilated had captured Kelmomas, why didn't they just box him right away to re-create the No-god? At the center of their power with a hundred tears of god and the No-god to back them up, not even Kellhus and whatever possessed him would stand a chance. Not to mention it would pretty much instantly demoralize/sap the strength of the Great Ordeal. Or am I to assume that they captured the boy but he was able to escape and play with them the same way he did back in the palace? Of that, at least, there was no indication. Maybe the Mutilated really needed the Judging Eye to birth the eventuality of the No-god.

But it being the crab-clawed child also fits since last we saw him he was in the Scylvendi camp running for his life. Arguably he wouldn't just kill someone without reason, but maybe he just needed food and was making it look like someone else settled a grudge. But why would the child go with the skinspider? Some mad dash at hope because he knew the "BAD" consult that had killed his people had captured some of them?

I think that has to be Kel, because how else would he end up in the Ark?

And I don't think that the Mutilated know exactly what it is they are looking for.  So, they are just trying to keep tabs on as many Anasûrimbor as they can, because that's what they think matters (I have a hunch they are wrong though), just in case.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #86 on: July 10, 2017, 12:14:30 pm »
Yea, it seems as though Bakker made a big deal of the scene when Mimara goes to look at Hologram Kellhus. I think that the Judging Eye is what caused the No-God and the time thing going on to "take off", so to say. I think Mimara influenced it somehow.

By the way, what's up with Cnaüir not being able to see the No-God? Proof that he goes on to be more than a Ciphrang? A true Prince of Hell? And, I'm not buying the Kellhus head is still alive bit, so he is definitely in the Outside now too. So did he really get his side of the deal? Did he really dupe Ajokli?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #87 on: July 10, 2017, 12:29:34 pm »
Yea, it seems as though Bakker made a big deal of the scene when Mimara goes to look at Hologram Kellhus. I think that the Judging Eye is what caused the No-God and the time thing going on to "take off", so to say. I think Mimara influenced it somehow.

By the way, what's up with Cnaüir not being able to see the No-God? Proof that he goes on to be more than a Ciphrang? A true Prince of Hell? And, I'm not buying the Kellhus head is still alive bit, so he is definitely in the Outside now too. So did he really get his side of the deal? Did he really dupe Ajokli?

Mimara's role there is really confusing, honestly.  I think on the one hand, she collapsed the mirage of Kellhus, but I don't think she really had anything to do with the No-God actually becoming active.  At least, it didn't seem so...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Walter

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« Reply #88 on: July 10, 2017, 12:57:31 pm »
I tend to think the Consult just turned the hologram off when Mimara started yelling about it.  Like, I don't think she specifically had anything to do with it.

Also, I don't think Ajokli deliberately left Kellhus when Kelmomas appeared, I think he lost his grip on him the way the first WLW did.  Like, the possessed inhabit a Conditioned Universe where everything is always destined to fall their way.  Kelmomas is a glitch in that universe, and it resets the God back to the outside. 

Heavenfall

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« Reply #89 on: July 10, 2017, 12:58:30 pm »
Achiaman does look upon Kellhus before the mirage disappears and he sees no mark at all. Before the Judging Eye sees the scarab-like sarcophagus. That would indicate that it was always the No-god and not some quantum state.

Or Kellhus was truly redeemed (in the alternative universe) for having destroyed the Consult - by power of the god that possessed him, perhaps a part of their deal. And then "collapsed" into the No-god because of the Judging Eye. But that seems increasingly far-fetched imho.

What it seems like is the No-god used the illusion to bring everyone closer before he killed them. Only moments later he shows tactical acumen when using the tears of god against the few remaining schoolmen. The only bad fit about this that I can think of is that Achiaman's and Mimara's journey literally meant nothing in the grander scheme of things.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 01:00:50 pm by Heavenfall »