[Sausuna]

That's the conundrum. There's no reason for them to lie, but then Bakker sows questions about the fate of Shaeönanra. It's hard to imagine Shaeönanra duping the Mutilated when (some of) his faculties are supposed to be burning in Hell, so it seems we're left with either a willing possession or none at all.

Eh, I think a kind of back end unwilling possession is certainly in the realm of possibility. Dunyain makes mistakes, it seems especially where magic is concerned. Kellhus' father blinded himself pursuing making and ended up with the worst deal. Kellhus was possessed by a god. Perhaps The Mutilated, from their weak spirits and low passions, were the victim of some soul magic.

At this point, that seems more likely to me than lying.

[Madness]

Working so closely with Sranc? At least the Intact at Ishterebinth weren't that openly in bed with the Vile, and it seems unlikely they would miss the Erratics among them departing en masse to rendezvous with a Consult army and then take part in a multiple-year siege.

Truth. I'm just citing the line of speculation based on the text in TGO that says the Quya came from the West (Ishterebinth, assumptively) while the Sranc came from the East (driven by the Consult).

Maybe Nin'ciljiras could have concocted a reason for the Intact to war on a isolated clan of Men?

Well, I think it would have to be something that involved their lack of cooperation, otherwise I see no reason for their saying he had to be 'dealt with' or whatever word they use. Implies eliminated or something.

I'm still not sure why everyone assumes the Mutilated were telling Kellhus the truth about Shauriatas, or indeed about anything else.

Like Kellhus' sword, Certainty is a weapon with two edges.

Indeed. We have a couple threads dissecting Bakker's comments and Shauriatas' status but - excess imagination aside - knowing Bakker, I imagine he thinks there is something textually evident that is not as clear as he imagined it was (whether that's Shauriatas-Uploaded or Shauriatas-the-Mutilated, I don't really care to guess).

In my handful of conversations with him about ambiguity/clarity moments in TUC (of which there were far less than TGO) nothing about Shauriatas came up except for the Tekne-Glamour Shauriatas seed which sets up the No-God's Kellhus illusion at the end.

And the Mutilated were clearly happy to let the OG Consult deceive Kellhus - If they could, they would have let the Tekne-Glamour Shauriatas talk Kellhus into the Carapace without ever exposing themselves, no doubt.

Can someone remind me who /what the Sayothi skin spy was, and why it may have something to do with the Mutilated? I don't remember it at all!

In the opening chapters of TJE, the New Empire protocols on "Identifying Skin-Spies" yield a Sayothi Skin-Spy, which Esmenet has flayed before the masses to remind them of the Consult and Kellhus' Great Ordeal. Theliopa suggests that the Sayothi Skin-Spy is a novel Tekne invention (and we'll recall that the Consult were originally only able to produce the Skin-Spies after 1700 years or so of trial and error).

Thus, given the timeline and the end of TAE, we can assume Zeum is already infiltrated by Skin-Spies. I'm just curious as to whether or not Ciphrang-Malowebi will be able to detect them or not...

I don't see a compelling reason for them to lie about that fact. Certainly, it is possible they lied. But nothing seems strong enough to me. And this brings up the topic (which someone made a thread on before) about why they were trying to kill Kellhus before or even why they sought to use the hologram to make an image of Shauriatas.

Either way, I wouldn't doubt their statement until there is enough reason to.

I don't think they were ever trying to kill Kellhus. Decimate as much of the Ordeal as possible, for sure. But Kellhus was never in harm's way.

That's the conundrum. There's no reason for them to lie, but then Bakker sows questions about the fate of Shaeönanra. It's hard to imagine Shaeönanra duping the Mutilated when (some of) his faculties are supposed to be burning in Hell, so it seems we're left with either a willing possession or none at all.

I suppose we just don't know enough about how Soul-Trapping works, do we  ?

[SmilerLoki]

Maybe Nin'ciljiras could have concocted a reason for the Intact to war on a isolated clan of Men?

I just don't see Nonmen, considering the state they are in, caring about Men enough to go to war on them. They need something visceral to take action, like the Consult-Inchoroi or the prospect of damnation as seen in the Inverse Fire. That's not to say there can't be other reasons of similar magnitude for them.

[TheCulminatingApe]

In the opening chapters of TJE, the New Empire protocols on "Identifying Skin-Spies" yield a Sayothi Skin-Spy, which Esmenet has flayed before the masses to remind them of the Consult and Kellhus' Great Ordeal. Theliopa suggests that the Sayothi Skin-Spy is a novel Tekne invention (and we'll recall that the Consult were originally only able to produce the Skin-Spies after 1700 years or so of trial and error).

Thus, given the timeline and the end of TAE, we can assume Zeum is already infiltrated by Skin-Spies. I'm just curious as to whether or not Ciphrang-Malowebi will be able to detect them or not...

But not overly relevant to the Three Seas, where there are very few Satyothi? 

I don't think much should be made of the Satyothi Skin-Spy - all it tells us is that the Consult have infiltrated Zeum in the same way they have infiltrated everywhere else

[TheCulminatingApe]

I'm still not sure why everyone assumes the Mutilated were telling Kellhus the truth about Shauriatas, or indeed about anything else.

Like Kellhus' sword, Certainty is a weapon with two edges.

Indeed. We have a couple threads dissecting Bakker's comments and Shauriatas' status but - excess imagination aside - knowing Bakker, I imagine he thinks there is something textually evident that is not as clear as he imagined it was (whether that's Shauriatas-Uploaded or Shauriatas-the-Mutilated, I don't really care to guess).

In my handful of conversations with him about ambiguity/clarity moments in TUC (of which there were far less than TGO) nothing about Shauriatas came up except for the Tekne-Glamour Shauriatas seed which sets up the No-God's Kellhus illusion at the end.

And the Mutilated were clearly happy to let the OG Consult deceive Kellhus - If they could, they would have let the Tekne-Glamour Shauriatas talk Kellhus into the Carapace without ever exposing themselves, no doubt.

I don't see a compelling reason for them to lie about that fact. Certainly, it is possible they lied. But nothing seems strong enough to me. And this brings up the topic (which someone made a thread on before) about why they were trying to kill Kellhus before or even why they sought to use the hologram to make an image of Shauriatas.

Either way, I wouldn't doubt their statement until there is enough reason to.

I don't think they were ever trying to kill Kellhus. Decimate as much of the Ordeal as possible, for sure. But Kellhus was never in harm's way.

That's the conundrum. There's no reason for them to lie, but then Bakker sows questions about the fate of Shaeönanra. It's hard to imagine Shaeönanra duping the Mutilated when (some of) his faculties are supposed to be burning in Hell, so it seems we're left with either a willing possession or none at all.

I suppose we just don't know enough about how Soul-Trapping works, do we  ?

Undone
1. past participle of undo.

Undo
1. unfasten, untie, or loosen (something).
2. cancel or reverse the effects or results of
3. cause the downfall or ruin of

Think that last definition is the objective one to use. He was slain or banished or his leadership came to an end.

There's a line in TUC about Shauriatas being 'the spaces in between' (or something the that effect).  'Undone' could be read as TauHorror's first definition - he's been detached from the larvae - and attached to 'something else'.  What we know about him (super sorceror - exists beyond his physical body - can offer something new and different to non-men/ Inchoroi) suggests that is capable of surviving a lot of serious shit.

[TaoHorror]

Yes, I think seeing a commonality with our thoughts on this - Shae was simply too impressive to simply be gone by now. Seems he's gotta be somewhere. He was the architect of THE betrayal to mankind, something's up with this.

[Madness]

I just don't see Nonmen, considering the state they are in, caring about Men enough to go to war on them. They need something visceral to take action, like the Consult-Inchoroi or the prospect of damnation as seen in the Inverse Fire. That's not to say there can't be other reasons of similar magnitude for them.

The Floating Court consists of a dozen Intact and countless others succumbing to the Dolour. They've accepted - tentatively until the Niom shakes things up - Nin'ciljiras, Vile ally, as their King. I can't say for certain that they wouldn't go fuck Ishual up on Nin'ciljiras' say so.

EDIT: Textually important, I believe Koringhus recalls the Nonmen Quya as coming from the West, while the Sranc hordes came from the East - suggesting Ishterebinth complicit.

But not overly relevant to the Three Seas, where there are very few Satyothi? 

I don't think much should be made of the Satyothi Skin-Spy - all it tells us is that the Consult have infiltrated Zeum in the same way they have infiltrated everywhere else

I'm only parroting Theliopa's conjecture that the Sayothi Skin-Spy is a novel innovation on the Tekne at the time of its discovery in TJE. Apparently, of all the Skin-Spies purged from the Kellian Empire, that was the first Sayothi version they found.

I would imagine though that if the Consult had already infiltrated Zeum as they had the Three-Seas before the Unification Wars that any Zeumi Skin-Spies (analogies of Istriya, Skeaos, Sarcellus, Chepheramunni) would have counseled more direct action against Kellhus - who the Consult knew as "Dunyain" since at least TWP/TTT.

[SmilerLoki]

EDIT: Textually important, I believe Koringhus recalls the Nonmen Quya as coming from the West, while the Sranc hordes came from the East - suggesting Ishterebinth complicit.

But Golgotterath is also to the West (North-West, to be specific) of Ishual.

[Madness]

True enough. Either way.

[natanaj]

Guys the mutilated didn't so much take over the consult, as get promoted to a leadership position. The consult are fanatical about avoiding damnation, and probably recognized that the dunyain had the best minds to lead them.

[Wilshire]

Guys the mutilated didn't so much take over the consult, as get promoted to a leadership position. The consult are fanatical about avoiding damnation, and probably recognized that the dunyain had the best minds to lead them.

That only really makes sense in the event that the original Consult are still there ... Which, as it stands, they are all pretty much dead. It seems terribly like the Dunyain killed the original Consult off - as they do with all their pawns once their usefulness ebbs.

[TLEILAXU]

Guys the mutilated didn't so much take over the consult, as get promoted to a leadership position. The consult are fanatical about avoiding damnation, and probably recognized that the dunyain had the best minds to lead them.

That only really makes sense in the event that the original Consult are still there ... Which, as it stands, they are all pretty much dead. It seems terribly like the Dunyain killed the original Consult off - as they do with all their pawns once their usefulness ebbs.

But... they are there. Cet'ingira, Aurax, Aurang, all kinds of Nonmen erratics etc. Shaeönanra is the one missing for reasons that may still be fleshed out.