For those of you who hated the ending …

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TaoHorror

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« on: December 18, 2017, 04:08:44 pm »
This post is a “guess” … which is to say I don’t know Bakker, nor can I read the man’s mind. Over the past few months I’ve seen some criticism of the work on plot and clarity and hope to rope some of you back into enjoying these books and look forward to more, as I do.

Bakker has been presenting the coming/happening of what he calls The Semantic Apocalypse on 3 Pound Brain. He’s leveraging a “Bulls-eye” approach in that medium; he’s telling you exactly what it is, that it’s happening, why and how it’s happening and his concerns about it. I think he knows he’s losing a lot of people with that discussion and he’s not surprised by it. He’s simply showing us something most ( if not all ) of the rest of us cannot see because we’ve never looked at something like this before ( or more accurately, we’ve not used our “eyes” in a way beyond what evolution has yielded us ). He’s pointing right at it, but we’re looking up, down, behind us, eyes closed, right at it but not understanding it – his “pointing”, precision, is not good enough to get us to see it.

The books are an alternative approach to showing us this Semantic Apocalypse. By using tools such as obfuscation, misdirection, inconsistency, deception and lies, he’s having us follow him through the forest to get to “it”; since the bull’s eye approach is failing him, he’s trying to jar us into understanding using a medium so many enjoy. This is why he says those who are most put off by the books are actually “getting” the story better than those of us who don’t. Which is to say, those who are pissed off with the ending of TUC, et al are actually following him to see what he sees. The rest of us not so disappointed are risking not ever getting “there” … by trusting him too much we could be cheapening the experience taking a shortcut to the destination, missing the richness of the journey ( which is designed to enhance our “sight” ) and may still not get it once we arrive. Those of us ( like myself ) who enjoy the details so much, we risk never even arriving ( wandering around the forest, following our own path, too easily amused  ). He’s not a sadist, he’s getting no pleasure from this. He’s alarmed and doing his best avoiding the Casandra trap ( clairvoyance without believability ), he genuinely needs more brains on this to vet this out so we/humanity have a chance to adapt and survive it.

If you’ve read this far ( i.e. 7 books ), considering not giving up and continuing. Yes, our beloved hero is salt. Yes, there’s a lot of crazy shit that doesn’t make sense. Keep going and bring your anger/disappointment with you – we may find something of what he’s going on about together. Some of the richest insights into the work have come from the harshest critics.

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MSJ

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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2017, 04:42:25 pm »
Great post, TaoHorror!

I have many frustrations. So, I must be getting it?

ETA: though I get the ending. Bakker need not write another book and TSA would be complete in my mind. Kellhus, might be salt, (and I'm not talking about what Bakker said), but Kellhus will be part part of th story going forward.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 04:53:29 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Redeagl

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« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2017, 05:01:35 pm »
I still can't understand people who didn't LOVE Kellhus dying.
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

- Chronicler of the Chroniclers

TaoHorror

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« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2017, 05:07:42 pm »
Great post, TaoHorror!

I have many frustrations. So, I must be getting it?

ETA: though I get the ending. Bakker need not write another book and TSA would be complete in my mind. Kellhus, might be salt, (and I'm not talking about what Bakker said), but Kellhus will be part part of th story going forward.

Thank you, MSJ, you're kind. I agree, he could've stopped with TUC, it is an ending. But appears he has more in him and if for no other reason to get some more reveals, I think it could be worth it. It could be, "now that I've got everyone pissed off, they're ready ... "
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2017, 05:08:51 pm »
I still can't understand people who didn't LOVE Kellhus dying.

Well, I thoroughly enjoyed the Proyas rape scene, was looking forward to more of that ... sigh
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MSJ

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« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2017, 05:13:33 pm »
Thank you, MSJ, you're kind. I agree, he could've stopped with TUC, it is an ending. But appears he has more in him and if for no other reason to get some more reveals, I think it could be worth it. It could be, "now that I've got everyone pissed off, they're ready ... "

You won't get any qualms from me if we get more. ;)

[EDIT Madness: Quote tags.]
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 06:52:20 pm by Madness »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Dora Vee

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« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2017, 09:58:49 pm »
Quote
I think it could be worth it. It could be, "now that I've got everyone pissed off, they're ready ... "

Really? What could /I/ possibly be ready for? I was fine with the ending. :p
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

TaoHorror

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« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2017, 10:03:21 pm »
Quote
I think it could be worth it. It could be, "now that I've got everyone pissed off, they're ready ... "

Really? What could /I/ possibly be ready for? I was fine with the ending. :p

Just throwing out a possibility as to why Bakker says those who don't like the ending get the ending. Could be he's readying us to better understand his point, for which I take he'll present in the next books.
 
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MSJ

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« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2017, 11:02:53 pm »
Tao, I'm about as optimistic Bakker fan you'll come across. I don't see Bakker revealing much metaphysical, which would be great. The one thing I hope and pray he does reveal is about the Dreams. I have to know why Akka became a Prophet of the Past.

Besides that, I expect that things might get muddier. Who knows, maybe he'll go all put and give us all the answers....I find it highly unlikely.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2017, 12:25:51 am »
Agreed, who knows what the cat will put out for us - but I do think it will continue "his point". Now whether I'll understand it is another conversation  :)
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Madness

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« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2017, 12:22:03 pm »
BFK, tleilaxu, I'm not a babysitter.

If you can't discuss the end of a fucking tattooed dead tree when its pages run out without name calling, neither of you have a place here.

I should have moved both posts to the Building Better Communities thread but my patience is done. If you want to discuss why I removed either of your posts, do so in that thread.
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Redeagl

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« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2017, 03:06:05 pm »
I still can't understand people who didn't LOVE Kellhus dying.

Well, I thoroughly enjoyed the Proyas rape scene, was looking forward to more of that ... sigh
Lmao.
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

- Chronicler of the Chroniclers

Dora Vee

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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2017, 04:00:58 am »
I actually enjoyed Proyas/Kayutas. Like for reals...

Too bad Kayutas was part of the ruin Proyas scheme. :(
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

Bolivar

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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2017, 09:36:07 pm »
I've spent too much time reading these books to take a remark like, "the people who don't like it are the ones who get it!" as anything other than rationalization.

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TaoHorror

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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2017, 10:19:53 pm »
I've spent too much time reading these books to take a remark like, "the people who don't like it are the ones who get it!" as anything other than rationalization.

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It has the odor of rationalization, but he did go into it a bit so maybe there's something to it. I think there is. If it is intellectual defensiveness, then I would expect him to be more open to mechanizing his story. It would be either protecting his ego or trying to drum up more dough. I don't know him, so could be ego.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 01:17:24 am by TaoHorror »
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