[Madness]

That is a fine example. Cultivating analogies is always informative, not to mention, fun! Lol.

Bakker's big on Narrative Occlusion and how what we don't know frames what we do. It is a nice concise theory.

Which is why I still want to dream that TSTSNBN is The First Apocalypse.

aka, what comes after determines what comes before.

I've heard it both ways .

@ Madness - Jesuschrist!  That the third trilogy should be the first apocalypse is fucking awesome!!!

Yeah... that's a nerdanel I worked up back on the Zombies Three-Seas. Good stuff.

[mrganondorf]

Insofar as the TTT is a plan to unify the three seas, maybe it didn't matter if the holy war failed.  A failed holy war would see Kian and Co as the preeminent, or more so, nation--all of the other nations are sapped of their strength, the Scarlet Spires and Imperial Saik destroyed. 

In an alternate universe, the Great Ordeal goes north under an Anasurimbor + Fanimry!  Inrithism reinterpreted to be a subset of a new revelation of the Heir of Fane.

For Moe/Kel the worst thing that could have happened would be too much carnage without enough left over soldiers/sorcerers/granaries etc.

[Madness]

In an alternate universe, the Great Ordeal goes north under an Anasurimbor + Fanimry!  Inrithism reinterpreted to be a subset of a new revelation of the Heir of Fane.

That would be amazing. Kellhus synchronizes all of the realities?

[mrganondorf]

Kellhus or dad!

[mrganondorf]

If it took the Circumfix to cause Kellhus to apprehend the TTT, I wonder if we'll get a revelation of a similar traumatic experience happening to Old Moe.  Maybe related to when he lost his eyes?

[Wilshire]

Insofar as the TTT is a plan to unify the three seas, maybe it didn't matter if the holy war failed.  A failed holy war would see Kian and Co as the preeminent, or more so, nation--all of the other nations are sapped of their strength, the Scarlet Spires and Imperial Saik destroyed. 

In an alternate universe, the Great Ordeal goes north under an Anasurimbor + Fanimry!  Inrithism reinterpreted to be a subset of a new revelation of the Heir of Fane.

For Moe/Kel the worst thing that could have happened would be too much carnage without enough left over soldiers/sorcerers/granaries etc.

Agree 100%. Moe may not have planned to lose the war, but it didn't matter. The stated purpose of TTT was to unite humanity. Final plans for what to do with humanity may be disputed, but TTT was fulfilled

If it took the Circumfix to cause Kellhus to apprehend the TTT, I wonder if we'll get a revelation of a similar traumatic experience happening to Old Moe.  Maybe related to when he lost his eyes?

Flashbacks to Dune. Miles Teg's trauma.

lol just found this link, marginally related. Also has a farcaster from Hyperion
http://www.worth1000.com/contests/13904/13904-round-3-bringing-literature-to-life-sci-fi-fantasy

[The Sharmat]

I maintain that the Circumfixion is the moment Kellhus broke as a Dunyain and started lying to himself like a worldborn.

[Wilshire]

I maintain that the Circumfixion is the moment Kellhus broke as a Dunyain and started lying to himself like a worldborn.

The distinction between Dunyain and worldborn, then, is not the intellect but rather the ability to look at the world/self objectively? Or, put differently, the Dunyain acknowledge that  Darkness precedes them, while the worldborn do not?

[mrganondorf]

Listening to the story again, I find it weird that Kellhus asserts that Moenghus *will* learn of his damnation and then assist the Inchoroi.  I can't think that Kellhus is referring to peering into the Inverse Fire, because that would be at the end.  Kellhus seems to be alleging that something will happen after their meeting but before the successful conquest of Golgotterath.  What the hell could that be???

[Wilshire]

In the context of the section I think you are pointing to, I think he is simply suggesting possible outcomes (assuming that Kellhus does not stop his father).

Kellhus' original goal was to stop his father. Could be that the Dunyain in power in Ishual recognized that Moenghus had grasped TTT and knew he would side with the inchoroi, and decided that they would have to send Kellhus out to stop him from doing so. Meaning that the Dunyain wished to keep the world open all along, keeping open the possibility of dominating the Gods (instead of shutting the world and forever hiding from them. Maybe that option felt like cheating?)

[mrganondorf]

Hmm, i don't know!  Maybe Kellhus thought that his ascendancy would allow him to share his knowledge with his dad and then old Moe would eventually use the meta-gnostic-daimos and see the Outside in a way that he had not before and infer that he and all the dunyain are damned?

After that, Moe would be motivated to keep the world shut and would only have to assassinate Kellhus if they weren't on the same page about it?  Strange to think of that alternate timeline with Old Moe leading the world to ruin.

[The Sharmat]

Kellhus' original goal was to stop his father.

I'm not convinced of that. That may have been why the other Dunyain sent him, but I don't think Kellhus himself even made up his mind until well after he arrived in the Three Seas. Maybe even as late as partway through his meeting with Moenghus.

[Wilshire]

I doubt Kellhus had an original thought of his own until he was out of Ishual for some time. Imagine the conditioning in such a controlled environment. I think his POVs at the start are honest, why would he be lying to himself and the reader so early on?

[SilentRoamer]

(click to show/hide)

When Kellhus is present in the Andiamine Heights all bickering stops and all self motivation ceases.

When Kellhus leaves then they continue. The Conditioning in Ishual could be so strong that Kellhus never had a thought of his own. Interesting re-reading the Ishual scenes from the point of view of the Pragma as Dunyain once you know Dunyain capability.

On the other hand though - we are told Kellhus is something of a prodigy, even among the prodigious Dunyain, an outstanding Intellect standing above Genius?

Sharmat what you say about the Circumfix resonates with me - but I would add that in TWP we saw a number of hints at Kellhus humanity and I generally believe that Kellhus believes he is something more. IMO Kellhus is more, he tore Serwes heart from his own chest and set it aflame in his hand.

[Wilshire]

Sharmat what you say about the Circumfix resonates with me - but I would add that in TWP we saw a number of hints at Kellhus humanity and I generally believe that Kellhus believes he is something more. IMO Kellhus is more, he tore Serwes heart from his own chest and set it aflame in his hand.

One of my favorite scenes, and simultaneously one of my most hated. A great moment in the books, what a great climax, but it has never really explained which is so frustrating. Hopefully TUC will give us enough hints and oblique suggestions that we can parse together what happened. And/Or and "directors cut" is released with the scene that was allegedly deleted.