[SilentRoamer]

I love that scene. I dont think it is as ambiguous as a lot of people. He reaches into his own chest and pulls out Serwes heart after removing frames of reference from reality then he sets it on fire. Dude is clearly BOSS!

All hail Kellhus!

[Madness]

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When Kellhus is present in the Andiamine Heights all bickering stops and all self motivation ceases.

When Kellhus leaves then they continue. The Conditioning in Ishual could be so strong that Kellhus never had a thought of his own. Interesting re-reading the Ishual scenes from the point of view of the Pragma as Dunyain once you know Dunyain capability.

On the other hand though - we are told Kellhus is something of a prodigy, even among the prodigious Dunyain, an outstanding Intellect standing above Genius?

Sharmat what you say about the Circumfix resonates with me - but I would add that in TWP we saw a number of hints at Kellhus humanity and I generally believe that Kellhus believes he is something more. IMO Kellhus is more, he tore Serwes heart from his own chest and set it aflame in his hand.

Watch your subforums please, SR.

[mrganondorf]

A little part of me thinks that TTT is something of a decoy planted by Moenghus.  Here is Kellhus, traveling south, not knowing what to do except to dominate circumstances according to his breeding and training.  Then a Cishaurim (which we assume IS an agent of his dad's, I guess with all the crazy shit in the books it's not impossible to think that it's a rouge) plants an idea in Kellhus head that there is a grand plan to all this madness.  Did Moe really have TTT?   Or did he just invent the notion of it to seize Kellhus attention?

[Wilshire]

Could be, but either way, TTT clearly exists to Kellhus and
AE spoilers

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, Maithanet, Kelmomas, and Inrilatas

[The Sharmat]

A little part of me thinks that TTT is something of a decoy planted by Moenghus.  Here is Kellhus, traveling south, not knowing what to do except to dominate circumstances according to his breeding and training.  Then a Cishaurim (which we assume IS an agent of his dad's, I guess with all the crazy shit in the books it's not impossible to think that it's a rouge) plants an idea in Kellhus head that there is a grand plan to all this madness.  Did Moe really have TTT?   Or did he just invent the notion of it to seize Kellhus attention?

The Cishaurim in question gladly dies simply to deliver a message, and his last words are "The Logos is without beginning or end." The fact that Moenghus motivated a man to that end is another reason I have doubts that Moenghus' ability to dominate those around him was as compromised as Kellhus believes.

And yeah TTT does seem like the kind of vague, tantalizing meaninglessness that a Dunyain would dangle in front of a worldborn. Although conversely, why would Moenghus call his son to him, if he believed him so weak and deluded?

[mrganondorf]

I totally agree: Kellhus assessment of Moenghus' strength is way off.  How did Kellhus miss that?  Does Kellhus have a peculiar blind spot where his father is concerned or was he just playing a part in Kyudea?

Lol, I don't think Kellhus is "weak and deluded;" I just suspect that Moe has been conditioning Kellhus along a specific path.  Whatever Moe's ultimate goal is, I think he saw (decades before TTT events) that he would have to make a tool of a Dunyain to accomplish his goal.  Getting that Dunyain to believe they were actually pursuing their own grand scheme would be part of the deception.  Maybe?

[Wilshire]

  Does Kellhus have a peculiar blind spot where his father is concerned or was he just playing a part in Kyudea?

Kellhus', or any other Dunyain's, main weakness is that they often seem to lack the ability to see their own failings. The probability trance works on probabilities and statistics. Those statistics are only as good as  the information they have, and on top of that they can still be wrong. Something with a 1% chance of occuring is dismissed in favor of the path that makes up other 99%, and most of the time they are right. However, when things go wrong, when the world conspires, when the gods interfere, or when dumb luck changes the outcomes, the Dunyain are left vulnerable.

I believe Kellhus might have failed to guess everything about his father, but his father failed as well, and didn't have enough time to backpedal to save himself. Moe is dead.

[mrganondorf]

I'm really hoping for an Uber-Dunyain.  Kellhus is just so certain that his interpretation of faces/voices/intentions, a Dunyain on a higher level would be able to manipulate all of those appearances and just appear worldborn.

Long live Moe!!!

[Wic]

It's brought up a few times, particularly in WLW

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and generally in Esmenet's dealings with the Dunyain, but their greatest weakness is also their greatest tool (quoted as Kell's 'favorite'): ignorance.  They know full well they can't account for what is beyond their scope - I assume this is part of what drove Kellhus' forays into the Outside. 

Anybody think he might have at least attempted to contact Moe while Outside?

[Wilshire]

Watch your sub forums for spoilers

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Kell probably tried a whole lot of things when he was outside, just to see if it was possible. For me though, I doubt there is a lot of "selfhood" once the soul's tether to a body is broken (except for those very powerful entities like the Gods)

[mrganondorf]

It's brought up a few times, particularly in WLW

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and generally in Esmenet's dealings with the Dunyain, but their greatest weakness is also their greatest tool (quoted as Kell's 'favorite'): ignorance.  They know full well they can't account for what is beyond their scope - I assume this is part of what drove Kellhus' forays into the Outside. 

Anybody think he might have at least attempted to contact Moe while Outside?

Wic that's a great idea!  Why stop there?  So many more people to talk to!

[The Sharmat]

Watch your sub forums for spoilers

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Kell probably tried a whole lot of things when he was outside, just to see if it was possible. For me though, I doubt there is a lot of "selfhood" once the soul's tether to a body is broken (except for those very powerful entities like the Gods)

Judging Eye Spoiler

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A good point. The Wight-of-the-Mountain seemed to only vaguely still possess its originally identity as the King of Cil-Aujas. Most of its time it functioned as a terrible gestalt entity of damned souls.