The inverse fire.

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Wilshire

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« Reply #90 on: February 26, 2014, 02:32:01 am »
If anything could, the IF would be it.
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Garet Jax

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« Reply #91 on: May 22, 2014, 05:06:25 pm »
I could have sworn I posted this in the past...  I could never wrap my head around what the Inverse Fire is, just had some speculation on how it could work.

I have thought that the inverse fire was essentially that.  An opposite way of "burning/damning".

Instead of damning you by some set of predetermined rules, "it" damns you for being you you.

Sorcerers = damned because they use magic

Non-sorcerers = damned because they don't use magic

Inchies = damned because of their love of torment

Priests = damned because of their love for Ciphrang

Normal people = damned because they are normal

Everyone = damned...

Just don't look at the inverse fire?


SilentRoamer

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« Reply #92 on: May 22, 2014, 07:29:40 pm »
Look at it through a mirror, like a Medusa.

Hell no damnation machine I tricked yo ass!

mrganondorf

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« Reply #93 on: May 27, 2014, 05:05:06 am »
@ Garet Jax - I wonder the same thing: does the IF just show you as damned regardless of whether you really are?  Or maybe looking into the IF is the sin that damns you?

@ SilentRoamer - Lol, love the mirror idea.  I suspect Kellhus will use an intermediary!

Garet Jax

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« Reply #94 on: May 27, 2014, 01:42:30 pm »
Or maybe looking into the IF is the sin that damns you?

This is what I was getting at with my rambling.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 01:54:05 pm by Garet Jax »

SilentRoamer

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« Reply #95 on: May 28, 2014, 12:22:56 pm »
I wonder:

Once you look into the IF you are so fucked up you commit atrocious acts - "blood as grease" sort of acts.

If the gods are timeless then would damnation be timeless too? So if you look into the IF, you were always damned, even before you looked into the IF, because your cumulative sins damn you and once you look into the IF the sins soon follow.

Do we know of anyone who looked into the IF and didn't go batshit crazy?

mrganondorf

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« Reply #96 on: May 28, 2014, 02:41:29 pm »
Lol, the IF is the gods' trick to get people to damn themselves!  Sounds like Ajokli...

mrganondorf

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« Reply #97 on: July 01, 2014, 03:53:21 am »
Hah!  If ignorance is the royal road...then the Inverse Fire convinces you that you are damned and because you are convinced, you are saved!  Like the mandate, though you lose your soul, you gain the world.  Seeing the IF and being convinced of your sin guarantees a spot in heaven!

The Sharmat

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« Reply #98 on: September 03, 2014, 04:45:53 am »
I'm not sure why everyone is so suspicious of the Inverse Fire. Titirga has every reason to want to dismiss these claims. They counter a lifetime of teaching, and he wants to avoid damnation at any cost. People believe what they want to believe. Titirga is not reliable on this. He knows nothing of it.

Plus everything we've seen of the nature of the Gods of this universe is horrible. They're petty, arbitrary, power hungry, vain, and cruel. I can easily believe they'd damn people for the simplest of things.

I wonder:

Once you look into the IF you are so fucked up you commit atrocious acts - "blood as grease" sort of acts.
I took it as being the result of supreme desensitization plus desperation. You've seen hell itself. There is nothing in all the world more horrible. Suddenly torture and genocide and rape all seem like very mild things. You've seen things so much more horrible that they have no effect on you.

In addition, you now know you are damned. There is nothing more fearful. You would do anything, anything to avoid that fate.

Finally, once you know you're damned...what's the point of even trying any more? Hell is hell. You're not gonna make things any worse for yourself, no matter what obscenities or atrocities you commit.

The net effect is that you can go from a fairly upstanding citizen with scruples to one of history's greatest monsters in a night.

If the gods are timeless then would damnation be timeless too? So if you look into the IF, you were always damned, even before you looked into the IF, because your cumulative sins damn you and once you look into the IF the sins soon follow.

Do we know of anyone who looked into the IF and didn't go batshit crazy?
I suspect this is the case as well. The whole reason you can see yourself damned in the Outside is that the Outside is beyond time. In there, your soul is already writhing in unending agony. You just died. And died aeons ago. All at once. Even though from your perspective you still live.

That makes any gamble to stop damnation seem futile. But what can you do but desperately hope that fate is mutable and that predestination can be changed? You have nothing to lose by trying. Nothing at all.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 04:47:26 am by The Sharmat »

Wilshire

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« Reply #99 on: September 03, 2014, 09:04:17 pm »
I don't know what the IF was originally, but it doesn't seem particularly difficult to create a false one. A little bit of glamor magic and some cants of compulsion. The viewer "sees" the hell that the Inchoroi originally saw, and the compulsions make them "feel" what the Inchoroi felt. Why risk having someone see something different in the IF? They know what effect it had on themselves, so they would seek to duplicate it on others to get them to join the cause.

It shows some kind of Hell to the Inchoroi, and they create that feeling for those they wish to bring onto their side. Its only half a lie, just like everything else.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #100 on: September 03, 2014, 09:30:33 pm »
I'd imagine a guy like Shaeonanra would have his wards readied at pretty much all times, so would be difficult to take unawares with the Cants of Compulsion.

Also I may be wrong on this but wasn't that one Nonman seeing the Inverse Fire and freaking out from before the Inchoroi had developed sorcery? Or was it after the purge?

To be fair, I suppose the Inchoroi had ways of influencing minds even without sorcery. Pheromones and subconcious cues inducing super-normal stimulus of arousal, for instance. They could presumably do something similar for horror and convince someone they're seeing hell.

I still think the most parsimonious explanation is that the Gods are dicks and like 50% of everyone is damned.

Wilshire

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« Reply #101 on: September 04, 2014, 03:48:37 pm »
Yeah your probably right, unlikely that its all sorcery, and its certainly true to some degree... Especially if the Ark is a topos. Fears become reality rather easily. Just throw someone in the depth, in the dark, and terrorize them for a few days/weeks and hell would pretty much manifest itself to you without much prompting.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #102 on: September 04, 2014, 04:10:21 pm »
Ah, but I really doubt the Ark was a Topos before it arrived in Earwa. I get the impression that things like Topoi are only possible on the Promised World.

Wilshire

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« Reply #103 on: September 04, 2014, 06:09:32 pm »
Promised for what...

I know, I was talking about post-crash. I agree that Earwa is likely the only place where a topos is even possible. I feel as though the Ark would not have taken too many years to become a topos once it arrived.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #104 on: September 04, 2014, 06:34:34 pm »
I imagine the materials used up before they arrived at the creation of Sranc meant untold Nonmen dead, yeah. Then there's the reckless way they even used themselves in their desperate bid to get a working graft of sorcery.

And presumably it's the Promised land because it's the one place where they can block the connection between the physical universe and the Outside.