In the case of Sranc though, I really feel like that's going to have some horrible, grotesque negative effect in the long run. Eating Srancflesh is just way too freaking ominous. Maybe it will almost be like crack to the Nonman's cocaine?Um... Huge +1.
Quote from: bbaztekThis is fun. Now with half-baked plot speculation!
....Ch. 2 - Aorsi (zsoronga, proyas, kayutas) - first effects of eating sranc,
Something that has been thrown around for a while is that people have been eating sranc all along, in the form of the mysterious drug that the Scarlet Spire seems to love. Though its name escapes me for now.Chanv coming from Sranc? Iyokus consuming it for all these long years? Interesting theory.
So what do you guys think the effect will be?
My guesses:
-Kellhus already knows what will happen when the flesh of Sranc is eaten; all is premeditated with the Dûnyain. He will abstain from eating it himself.
-It will be a stimulant like Qirri.
-It will be revolting at first but ultimately prove addictive.
-It will cause irreparable harm to the mind and body. (Perhaps even the soul?)
-It will slowly cause those consuming it to feel the violent/rabit "Sranc-lust". (In true Bakker style, there will be some description of this abhorrent change using the word "phallus").
Something that has been thrown around for a while is that people have been eating sranc all along, in the form of the mysterious drug that the Scarlet Spire seems to love. Though its name escapes me for now.Chanv coming from Sranc? Iyokus consuming it for all these long years? Interesting theory.I think sranc will be like crack to the nonman's coke. Stronger, doesn't last as long, and much more adverse effects.
I don't think chanv is sranc though. Chanv is rare, expensive, and mysterious even to those who take it. My money is on sorcerer salt. That would be rare, difficult to acquire, and thus worthy of the price. Plus we have the not so subtle scene at the end of TTT, where the boy is collecting a bit of the salt "that would be his fortune". Sranc, on the other hand, are ridiculously abundant in the north, and people hunt them all the time. If that was the source of chances then there's no reason for it to be so scarce, nor so expensive.
Well, not necessarily. Our earliest description of the Inchoroi, to my knowledge, is TFS, by which time they might've discovered the advantageous effects of sorceror salt -- and been using it -- for millennia.
Serious: I think it's going to have some profound effects on their minds and souls. Nightmares of the No-God, uncontrollable emotional states, psychosis.
Silly: Mass priapisms and diarrhea with eyes in it. :P
On Qirri.
It is residue from burnt Nonmen.(click to show/hide)
Therefore probably not common practice.
Depending on whether CC was quya, qirri might only result from burned quya.
Which would lend credence to the idea of chanv coming from sorcerers. Perhaps it is burned witches' ashes.
So can we really expect qirri like effects from eating sranc?
Thing is, sranc eating would have happened in prior history (well before Kellhus turned up). It's just going to happen, with the various random food shortages on Earwa.Earwa is a superstitious place, probably for good reason. I wouldn't be too surprised if people would rather starve to death rather than eat sranc without someone like Kellhus telling them to do it.
But weve been given no history of it.
Rather eat ones own children than eat sranc?Thing is, sranc eating would have happened in prior history (well before Kellhus turned up). It's just going to happen, with the various random food shortages on Earwa.Earwa is a superstitious place, probably for good reason. I wouldn't be too surprised if people would rather starve to death rather than eat sranc without someone like Kellhus telling them to do it.
But weve been given no history of it.
I'm really starting to doubt that eating Sranc would have any effects similar to qirri (whether it comes from quya or not), because Sranc have no souls.
Therefore they can't affect your metaphysical state.
Evidence:
There is that scene where Sorweel tells the scions that it is fine to do whatever they like to the captured sranc.
Edit* Callan, I would rather starve to death than eat my own children. Not a religious thing, more like a biological taboo that.
Yes. I'd imagine some people are religious enough to starve to death when surrounded by pigs or cows. Why is it a difficult extension to believe that in Earwa sranc are so unholy that death would be preferable?Rather eat ones own children than eat sranc?Thing is, sranc eating would have happened in prior history (well before Kellhus turned up). It's just going to happen, with the various random food shortages on Earwa.Earwa is a superstitious place, probably for good reason. I wouldn't be too surprised if people would rather starve to death rather than eat sranc without someone like Kellhus telling them to do it.
But weve been given no history of it.
I'm really starting to doubt that eating Sranc would have any effects similar to qirri (whether it comes from quya or not), because Sranc have no souls.I recently starting thinking this same thing. The fact that they don't have souls before they die is probably important. However, I think its possible that the Inchoroi weaved in some bad genetic juju that was originally meant to effect Nonmen if eaten, and by extension could cause some weird things to happen.
Therefore they can't affect your metaphysical state.
Evidence:
There is that scene where Sorweel tells the scions that it is fine to do whatever they like to the captured sranc.
Edit* Callan, I would rather starve to death than eat my own children. Not a religious thing, more like a biological taboo that.
Webs got weird shit (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2010/06/23/a-question-of-character/) on itI'm really starting to doubt that eating Sranc would have any effects similar to qirri (whether it comes from quya or not), because Sranc have no souls.
Therefore they can't affect your metaphysical state.
Evidence:
There is that scene where Sorweel tells the scions that it is fine to do whatever they like to the captured sranc.
Edit* Callan, I would rather starve to death than eat my own children. Not a religious thing, more like a biological taboo that.Yes. I'd imagine some people are religious enough to starve to death when surrounded by pigs or cows. Why is it a difficult extension to believe that in Earwa sranc are so unholy that death would be preferable?Rather eat ones own children than eat sranc?Thing is, sranc eating would have happened in prior history (well before Kellhus turned up). It's just going to happen, with the various random food shortages on Earwa.Earwa is a superstitious place, probably for good reason. I wouldn't be too surprised if people would rather starve to death rather than eat sranc without someone like Kellhus telling them to do it.
But weve been given no history of it.
Though I'm not really sure why you brought that up. I'm sure you can find a story about it on the internet, but I doubt its a widespread thing...
Tell people stories about parents eating their children during ancient sieges and they think, What the fuck is wrong with those people? Those people. Not us people. Those.
I'm really starting to doubt that eating Sranc would have any effects similar to qirri (whether it comes from quya or not), because Sranc have no souls.
Therefore they can't affect your metaphysical state.
I recently starting thinking this same thing. The fact that they don't have souls before they die is probably important. However, I think its possible that the Inchoroi weaved in some bad genetic juju that was originally meant to effect Nonmen if eaten, and by extension could cause some weird things to happen.
Webs got weird shit (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2010/06/23/a-question-of-character/) on itQuoteTell people stories about parents eating their children during ancient sieges and they think, What the fuck is wrong with those people? Those people. Not us people. Those.
This is assuming that eating Qirri affects because of ensoulled properties?
Perhaps my impression of 'magical' comes more from qirri's ability to provide actual energy and sustenance. With mundane drugs, only the illusion of these things can be provided.
Side note: Akka's POV bangs on about how it makes you 'feel' like a nonman (not that he makes that conscious connection), but only Mimara puts that 'empathy' to use.
It seems Skin spies consider it none to healthy.
(Even though it seems to be the norm)It seems to me that either the skin-spy didn't partake, didn't have time to get addicted, or was unable to become addicted. If the skin-spy couldn't get addicted, it could be for a number of reason, both physical and mundane or metaphysical. i.e. The consult made the spies immune, or the spies have no souls so they aren't affected.Perhaps my impression of 'magical' comes more from qirri's ability to provide actual energy and sustenance. With mundane drugs, only the illusion of these things can be provided.
Side note: Akka's POV bangs on about how it makes you 'feel' like a nonman (not that he makes that conscious connection), but only Mimara puts that 'empathy' to use.
Here's an idea: Let's assume that qirri is indeed powerful due to the fact that it came from a Nonman, and not a sorceror (though I still lean more towards the latter). Perhaps the only reason the ashes of Nonmen are powerful, and have life-extending properties, is because of whatever the Inchoroi did to the Nonmen to make them immortal in the first place? Perhaps there's some residue of that in their ashes (whatever the hell that is...I suppose we don't know if the Nonmen's immortality was composed purely from the Tekne? I suppose it was early enough in history that the Inchoroi might not have yet unlocked any secrets of the arcane).
Borric's and the bolded is what I'm riffing off. The skin-spy Bios and the creatures of the Tekne are limited. They are don't have the complex nervous systems we do. They may simply not have the receptors necessary to interact with Qirri or Chanv and so the drugs would be inert. Apparently, Chepherammuni was given the freedom to not do Chanv and they never grilled him on it.The skinspy tells Mimarra Cleric is killing them and the qirri is part of that.
Also, Curethan, real drugs can cause subtle changes in receptor activity in the brain, which do allow beyond an illusion energy and sustenance. But they do so by using up the mortal form faster, neh?
Notation please :). I'd like to read the passages that instill these thoughts.My inference - from Akka and Mimarra's POV's. Not a relevatory sentence or phrase.
Borric's and the bolded is what I'm riffing off. The skin-spy Bios and the creatures of the Tekne are limited. They are don't have the complex nervous systems we do. They may simply not have the receptors necessary to interact with Qirri or Chanv and so the drugs would be inert. Apparently, Chepherammuni was given the freedom to not do Chanv and they never grilled him on it.The skinspy tells Mimarra Cleric is killing them and the qirri is part of that.Also, Curethan, real drugs can cause subtle changes in receptor activity in the brain, which do allow beyond an illusion energy and sustenance. But they do so by using up the mortal form faster, neh?
That is the illusion I'm talking about. Example; using the qirri at the bottom of the medial screw. If you are exhausted and wounded to the point where you are falling unconcious like Akka and you take some stimulant which allows you to run up stairs - you are not going to recover from that by having more.
The skin eaters are surviving for months on a below subsistence diet and qirri whilst pursued by sranc and expending a lot more energy than is feasible. By comparison, the stone hags (who are denied the qirri) die. Except Koll, but he isn't human. Using drugs to sustain superhuman effort whilst starving results in death fairly quickly.
Magic in Earwa produces energy from where-ever. It's the simplest explanation. But you know, maybe they are getting it from endless fat reserves or super effective vitamins hidden in ash ::)Notation please :). I'd like to read the passages that instill these thoughts.My inference - from Akka and Mimarra's POV's. Not a relevatory sentence or phrase.
Akka catalogues the changes in his perspective that reflect the experience of a long lived soul. But, as usual, he doesn't consider what that means.
Mimarra doesn't use the JE to get inside Cleric's head. The more she uses qirri, the more she is able to manipulate him. She shaves her hair to seduce Cleric without even thinking about it.
She teases his old identity and the origin of qirri from him.
Anyway, it fits with Cleric's objective - he wants them to be more like the nonmen he once knew so that he can remember when he kills them. That's why he forces it on them.
The skinspy tells Mimarra Cleric is killing them and the qirri is part of that.
That is the illusion I'm talking about. Example; using the qirri at the bottom of the medial screw. If you are exhausted and wounded to the point where you are falling unconcious like Akka and you take some stimulant which allows you to run up stairs - you are not going to recover from that by having more.
The skin eaters are surviving for months on a below subsistence diet and qirri whilst pursued by sranc and expending a lot more energy than is feasible. By comparison, the stone hags (who are denied the qirri) die. Except Koll, but he isn't human. Using drugs to sustain superhuman effort whilst starving results in death fairly quickly.
Magic in Earwa produces energy from where-ever. It's the simplest explanation. But you know, maybe they are getting it from endless fat reserves or super effective vitamins hidden in ash ::)
Notation please :). I'd like to read the passages that instill these thoughts.My inference - from Akka and Mimarra's POV's. Not a relevatory sentence or phrase.
Akka catalogues the changes in his perspective that reflect the experience of a long lived soul. But, as usual, he doesn't consider what that means.
Mimarra doesn't use the JE to get inside Cleric's head. The more she uses qirri, the more she is able to manipulate him. She shaves her hair to seduce Cleric without even thinking about it.
She teases his old identity and the origin of qirri from him.
Anyway, it fits with Cleric's objective - he wants them to be more like the nonmen he once knew so that he can remember when he kills them. That's why he forces it on them.
Then, in the empty interval between breaths, the Judging Eye opens.
For a time she gazes in stupefaction, then she weeps at the transformation.
Her hair cropped penitent short. Her clothing fine, but with the smell of borrowed things. Her belly low and heavy with child...
And a halo about her head, bright and silver and so very holy. The encircling waters darken for its glow.
She convulses about breathless sobs, falls clutching to her knees for anguish...
For she sees that she is good - and this she cannot bear.
In my mind, everything in Earwa has magical properties to some extent. Faces form out of the ground and talk, sorcerers walk on the echo of the earth, cish use snakes to see, Yatwer uses storks etc etc.
It only takes the presence of some kind of soul/animus to disrupt the causal flow.
Sorcerers are just very good at it.
Sranc, otoh, have no connection to the ground. E.g. the gods see them as lies. The question with eating them is, to me, a mundane one. Does eating them infect you with the tekne?
Again though, this reads to me like an attempt to simply not hazard my question. Sorcerous or otherwise, do either of you think that Qirri eating precedes the coming of the Inchoroi?
Really liking this line of thought, Curethan. Especially because I think it fits into the idea of qirri (and chanv) being the result or sorcerous ashes, rather than anything special to the Nonmen. Perhaps, when a sorceror is "Choraed", it's his physical body that's incinerated, while the salt is the residue of his soul. Burning a Nonman (and, presumably a human), yields the same thing -- the body is gone, but the ashes that remain are infused with the soul residue.
The ability to grasp the onta is genetic afterall.
Again though, this reads to me like an attempt to simply not hazard my question. Sorcerous or otherwise, do either of you think that Qirri eating precedes the coming of the Inchoroi?
I have been of the mindset that the Dunyain were founded, and possibly sustained, while eating Qirri. But I haven't been able to make a coherent thesis about it. Or, for that matter, figure out how that would fit into any timeline, other than it would be after The Fall.
Really liking this line of thought, Curethan. Especially because I think it fits into the idea of qirri (and chanv) being the result or sorcerous ashes, rather than anything special to the Nonmen. Perhaps, when a sorceror is "Choraed", it's his physical body that's incinerated, while the salt is the residue of his soul. Burning a Nonman (and, presumably a human), yields the same thing -- the body is gone, but the ashes that remain are infused with the soul residue.
The ability to grasp the onta is genetic afterall.
So, Chanv is the result of "Choared" corpses and Qirri the result of burned ashes?
aren't Kellhus' haloes golden?
Would it indicate his falseness that the judging eye sees silver halos around Mimara?
The skinspy tells Mimarra Cleric is killing them and the qirri is part of that.The skin-spy could be lying. We only know for sure that it wanted Mimara's Chorae and that it thought it could defeat Nil'giccas in a mundane (still would have been epic) fight to the death with nimil vs. iron and Chorae. And that it wanted to accomplish killing Nil'giccas for the purposes of protecting a pregnant Mimara; Aurang indicates that this is the final variable that definitively safeguards her life.
Lmao... no sarcasm, I truly appreciate the fact that only here could you actually suggest the bold in seriousness against the premise of your position, being the existence of sorcery ;).
However, you've got to put it into perspective. They've only been at this for months and they haven't been not eating, just eating a lot less. They did eat semi-regularly and are still dining on anything they can find (up to and including raw meat in the Interlude at the end of WLW). They might have enjoyed years of longer life should they not have partaken in this drug or this journey and they're doing themselves damage by sustaining the Qirri habit this long.
Also, consider if Chanv is a product of the Tekne rather than sorcery; the Tekne is an advanced system of technology to which we've attributed all sorts of advances in chemical and biological engineering. Certainly, I can stretch what is known today to seemingly "magical" progress in these fields, can't I? If not sorcery, then the division between Qirri eating before or after the Fall can provide a big clue as to whether it is the Tekne manipulations of the Nonmen that make a drug of their ashes.
Not sure what you're getting at. In the later scene she shaves her head and eyebrows in front of Cleric.Notation please :). I'd like to read the passages that instill these thoughts.My inference - from Akka and Mimarra's POV's. Not a relevatory sentence or phrase.
Akka catalogues the changes in his perspective that reflect the experience of a long lived soul. But, as usual, he doesn't consider what that means.
Mimarra doesn't use the JE to get inside Cleric's head. The more she uses qirri, the more she is able to manipulate him. She shaves her hair to seduce Cleric without even thinking about it.
She teases his old identity and the origin of qirri from him.
Anyway, it fits with Cleric's objective - he wants them to be more like the nonmen he once knew so that he can remember when he kills them. That's why he forces it on them.
I actually like this conception very much, except one contention.(click to show/hide)
However, my contention is Mimara's decision to shave her head:Quote from: WLW, p287Then, in the empty interval between breaths, the Judging Eye opens.
For a time she gazes in stupefaction, then she weeps at the transformation.
Her hair cropped penitent short. Her clothing fine, but with the smell of borrowed things. Her belly low and heavy with child...
And a halo about her head, bright and silver and so very holy. The encircling waters darken for its glow.
She convulses about breathless sobs, falls clutching to her knees for anguish...
For she sees that she is good - and this she cannot bear.
My bold, original italics. Obviously, we can take stabs at the ambiguity of penitent but it's not until p660 that she shaves her head.
Her hair falls in a tangle of ribbons across her lap.Then she reminds him of his dead wife' which results in him remembering without killing her (although he comes very close). That's when she gets his old name. (After that he remembers Mimara's name. I think she was safe from Cleric killing her after that.)
...
She's not quite certain what she intends to do, let alone what she hopes to accomplish.
...
And miraculously she sees it. Her purpose and intent.
Totally. Different metaphysical quanta and relationships. I think it's related to the earthly remains of souls - the point where they go outside. So the Cish or Yatwer part of the spectrum.In my mind, everything in Earwa has magical properties to some extent. Faces form out of the ground and talk, sorcerers walk on the echo of the earth, cish use snakes to see, Yatwer uses storks etc etc.
It only takes the presence of some kind of soul/animus to disrupt the causal flow.
Sorcerers are just very good at it.
Sranc, otoh, have no connection to the ground. E.g. the gods see them as lies. The question with eating them is, to me, a mundane one. Does eating them infect you with the tekne?
Minus the Cishaurim and the snakes and sorcerers walking, we actually don't know that Yatwer's powers aren't active on a different frequency, so to say; I think this is the distinction that's long floated round here between thaumaturgy and sorcery.
Again though, this reads to me like an attempt to simply not hazard my question. Sorcerous or otherwise, do either of you think that Qirri eating precedes the coming of the Inchoroi?
why would the tekne immortality-treament/womb-plague make your ashes into super-amphetamine for humansCarbon nanofiber proteins that enhance cellular processes and don't break when set aflame?
Again though, this reads to me like an attempt to simply not hazard my question. Sorcerous or otherwise, do either of you think that Qirri eating precedes the coming of the Inchoroi?
I have been of the mindset that the Dunyain were founded, and possibly sustained, while eating Qirri. But I haven't been able to make a coherent thesis about it. Or, for that matter, figure out how that would fit into any timeline, other than it would be after The Fall.
Sure, man. The Tekne is just more magic as far as I'm concerned. Genetic engineering seems a lot more difficult than having some equipment and a bunch of crazy sorcerers and two sex criminals in a room for 1000 years. Difference is that it isn't concerned with souls.
There is only the questions remaining;
why would the tekne immortality-treament/womb-plague make your ashes into super-amphetamine for humans
(had fun imagining the design phase)
why does cleric force it on Akka & Mim .
Notation please :). I'd like to read the passages that instill these thoughts.My inference - from Akka and Mimarra's POV's. Not a relevatory sentence or phrase.
Akka catalogues the changes in his perspective that reflect the experience of a long lived soul. But, as usual, he doesn't consider what that means.
Mimarra doesn't use the JE to get inside Cleric's head. The more she uses qirri, the more she is able to manipulate him. She shaves her hair to seduce Cleric without even thinking about it.
She teases his old identity and the origin of qirri from him.
Anyway, it fits with Cleric's objective - he wants them to be more like the nonmen he once knew so that he can remember when he kills them. That's why he forces it on them.
Not sure what you're getting at. In the later scene she shaves her head and eyebrows in front of Cleric.QuoteHer hair falls in a tangle of ribbons across her lap.Then she reminds him of his dead wife' which results in him remembering without killing her (although he comes very close). That's when she gets his old name. (After that he remembers Mimara's name. I think she was safe from Cleric killing her after that.)
...
She's not quite certain what she intends to do, let alone what she hopes to accomplish.
...
And miraculously she sees it. Her purpose and intent.
Totally. Different metaphysical quanta and relationships. I think it's related to the earthly remains of souls - the point where they go outside. So the Cish or Yatwer part of the spectrum.
Haha. You want concise answers - sorry!
Maybe. No evidence either way. It doesn't matter though, because I think the effects would be the same.
Quote from: Curethanwhy would the tekne immortality-treament/womb-plague make your ashes into super-amphetamine for humansCarbon nanofiber proteins that enhance cellular processes and don't break when set aflame?
(Why yes, I HAVE been thinking about this.)
Hehe, so when does the womb-plague kick in for poor Mimara? Given Akka's age he should be ripe for going erratic too.
Well, that or becoming young of limb and fair of face. :D
I've conceded the possibility its the tekne, but soul residue seems more likely to me.
Besides - it reminds me of the reasoning behind Swazond, and I like the idea of Canninbal Kelmomas eating people to get superpowers.
I've long held the nerdanel that the Thousand Thousand Halls are a nonman mansion that Ishual was built on top of. Thinking about it again, I have convinced myself that mansion is Viri and it's possibly full of Nonmen who were powdered into qirri by the Inchie 'weapons of light' - so the Dunyain were getting dosed all along.
You know, I think we're definitely seeing another Dune connetion here with the "mysteriously powerful and dangerously addictive substance" concept, which is of course in the vein of the spice melange. But, unsurprisingly given that it's Bakker, it all has to be twisted and tied up with darker, more horrible ideas, like cannibalism.
I'm really starting to doubt that eating Sranc would have any effects similar to qirri (whether it comes from quya or not), because Sranc have no souls.
Therefore they can't affect your metaphysical state.
A big piece of evidence that there will be an effect, though, is the fact that the command comes as a book-ending cliffhanger 8)
A big piece of evidence that there will be an effect, though, is the fact that the command comes as a book-ending cliffhanger 8)
Unless Bakker's going to pull a Martin and go all foodstuffs throughout TUC because Sranc is a delicacy that must be served to the World.
The Tekne is cuisine. It's all protein right ;)?
Ordeal corrals all the Sranc in the World within the space of a year and they are farmed out of existence - Humanity - 1, Meat Food - 0. TSA is actually a commentary on the environment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtmI--F8Zmo).
Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri operates by metaphysical mechanism?
I don't have my books with me; where does the description of the effects of qirri come from? Akka or NG? It could be a purely physical or psychosomatic reaction instead of a metaphysical reaction, if the users are properly conditioned to react in a certain way.
Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri operates by metaphysical mechanism?
Lol - for comedic value, I'd like to curse at you (though, I support your thinkenearing). But I will resist defacing the monument - I'll leave that for Quorum ;).The exact response I was hoping for.
To rephrase: Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri operates by thaumaturgical mechanism?
A Quya, a Wizard, a Wich-to-be, and a bunch of superstitious madmen see Quirri as Magical or somehow divine.... right?
But consider two things: Most of what the Nonmen are today was forged by the Inchoroi and the Inchoroi did their experimenting before they could see the Onta. This would probably lead one to believe that since the Qirri is made from the ashes of what is basically an Inchoroi experiment, its likely that whatever the effects would be mundane rather than metaphysical.
Though, for the sake of argument, one could say that the Inchoroi are fully consumed by their desire to escape their damnation. This probably leads to an extreme obsession of all things Soul. Why wouldn't they try to develop, using their willing Nonman partners, some kind of meta-biological 'cure' for their condition? Maybe their experiments, while physical in nature, were designed to alter the Nonman Souls. Perhaps they succeeded. Still born children and dying in childbirth could seem like a problem with your Soul if thats what you're looking to find.
There, an answer thats not entirely designed to be irritating :).
Related note, I bet the nonmen make some great amphetamines.
"I CAN SEE THE WOLF IN THREE PLACES AT ONCE!"
The evidence is in the mind of the reader. As with most things with the books so far, if you look hard enough its there.
Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri operates by metaphysical mechanism?
As to proof, well there's as much or more than some of the other completely baseless(and sometimes really out there) theories around here. Say, sranc meat being anything other than protein. Because there are far to many physiological and metaphysical differences between the 2 know sources of quirri and nonmen to just assume you get high from both. And no, the announcement of the sranc eating at the end of a book is not evidence either. Think of the horror and revulsion the men of the ordeal must feel and the thought.
All any of us have about anything here is option and conjecture as, by the authors own admission, even our sources of Facts contain misinformation. That's not to say we should not ask "Why do you think that?" of each other. Just a reminder that even our "facts" are infirm ground. :)
This assumed distinction between 'metaphysics' and 'just technology' is making me twitchy. I think you all miss Bakker's point in a big way. It's a distinction that only makes sense from the point of view of 'we the readers' observing Earwa from above/outside, from within our own world. In our world, we can speak of 'metaphysics' as something dealing with the soul that we don't believe in except as a metaphor, contrasted with the biological mechanism that is the body and the mind it fools itself into thinking it possesses. To the characters in tSA, though, there's no distinction, just as there wasn't to our own ancestors (and this is the point I think Bakker is trying to make throughout the series). In a sense, there's no such thing as 'metaphysics' to Earwans; it's all just 'physics'. The soul and sorcery and life after death are as real to them as rocks and trees and human bodies. Analysing Earwa from a 21st century scientific-materialist perspective is, IMO, a fundamental error.
In other words, Qirri is Qirri. It might be a product of the Tekne or a product of the Gnosis, or some combination, or something else entirely. But to ask whether it is metaphysical or technological is a mu-question. If it changes a character's thoughts or emotions or the way they perceive the world, then in Earwan terms it is acting on their soul. Whether we would describe an analogous substance in our world as 'acting on the soul' or merely as 'a drug' is irrevelant.
Same goes for eating sranc. Someone asked whether it would have any effects beyond the psychological, as if that word doesn't already imply soul-warping in Earwa!
I agree with some of that, but I disagree that we cannot look at it from our own perspective. There is some 'objective' truth in Earwa that has been purposely hidden from us, and we spend our time here on the forum trying to discover what that truth might be. Sure you can say that, to Earwa and its ignorant inhabitants, that there is no distinction of physical reality and 'metaphysics' (soul, sorcery, gods, etc.), but that doesn't mean that their ignorance must be our own. We have the ability to see the whole picture as it exists within Earwa. We are not attempting to take the SA universe, put it into our own, and decipher it, but rather taking our privileged perspective and using it to figure out what is really happening in Earwa.
The whole purpose of this forum is to cut through the lies, misinformation, stupidity, ignorance, and biases of the characters and their perspectives, in order to try and figure out whats happening. I wholeheartedly disagree with you that simply because Earwa sees no distinction between physics and metaphysics that we should just accepts 'facts' as facts. Afterall, there would be almost nothing left to talk about if everyone here had that view.
QuoteAll any of us have about anything here is option and conjecture as, by the authors own admission, even our sources of Facts contain misinformation. That's not to say we should not ask "Why do you think that?" of each other. Just a reminder that even our "facts" are infirm ground. :)
Noted, of course. But again this is simply not a reason not to follow the threads of (ill)logic where they may go :).
Let's take Chanv, for instance. Am I to assume from the consensus here that it extends lifespan by manipulating the soul rather than the body?
I brought that up because you were a bit one sidedly insistent on proof in a discussion that bears little either way. I felt, perhaps incorrectly, that you were beginning to get upset and sought to mitigate that. Being here and discussing these things(and greatly enjoying the discourse) should be taken as a willingness to follow and attempt to untangle the threads of RSBs setting regardless of the general lack of objective proof. We're all here to bullshit, brother.
As too Chanv, we've even less data on it so I say assume nothing. I think it's probably magic or techne based
I'd just like to be able to know someone's connotations, if they have any specific passages that might have prompted their particular thoughts. Is all.
Also, admittedly, I'm a little overzealous about new membership, especially those who share in posts :).
- We really don't know whether to include this, do we? I very much feel like Qirri becoming such a major part of WLW and the perversion of the Nonman Bios into Sranc by Tekne both seem to suggest that burnt Sranc will have similar consequences. I mean, I absolutely can't discount that Bakker might simply mean to do a meditation on cannibalism. But I feel like those two things give rise to the possibility of it having a perceptual or physical effect [beyond general revoltion from eating Sranc].
Cool gauging new people to see what kind of mind you're conversing with is totally understandable. I was a bit defensive about it I admit.
Ok, maybe I was being thick before, but I see your line of reasoning now. I guess it comes down to what nonmen bios was used as the template for the sranc, pre or post womb plague. While they were not encountered until after the discovery of the plague, the numbers in which they appeared makes me think their manufacture began before the Inchori made their offer. But then, to counter my own point, they did have at least Nin'janjin to experiment on.
Sure you can say that, to Earwa and its ignorant inhabitants, that there is no distinction of physical reality and 'metaphysics' (soul, sorcery, gods, etc.)No, I'm saying the distinction flat-out makes no sense when talking about Earwa. (There is a related distinction that does make sense: that between the World as the God wills it and that alternative version of reality created by sorcery and hence bearing the Mark.)
We have the ability to see the whole picture as it exists within Earwa.That statement seems completely at odds with how Bakker writes. I don't think we ever see "the whole picture". I think filling in the 'gaps' with how things would be in our world is a mistake.
our privileged perspective and using it to figure out what is really happening in Earwa.I can't agree that we have a "privileged perspective". I think, if anything, we readers know far, far less about how Earwa works than its inhabitants do.
Afterall, there would be almost nothing left to talk about if everyone here had that view.Obviously I disagree with this, otherwise I'd not be here.
I can grok this, Duskweaver - but clearly the World is mundane in some senses (read: comparable to our flerwed anachronist projections).As I pointed out above, the more meaningful distinction appears to be between the World as the God wills it (or originally created it) and that which bruises the Onta. If you want to use the word 'mundane', I would suggest using it for the former. But anarcane ground is no less 'metaphysical' than anywhere else in Earwa. Does that make sense?
Everyone might have a connection the Outside but not everyone is affected in life by that connection, right?To say someone is "unaffected in life" by their own soul seems nonsensical to me.
and we know from the TUC Ch. 1 Excerpt that the division is tricky - clearly some aspects of cognition don't in fact carry over to your experience of soul later, marking an uneasy distinction between mind and soul again).Hmm... I'm going to have to reread.
People here appear to be drawing the dividing line between what would be real in our world and what would be impossible in our world, ignoring the fact that both are equally 'real' in Earwa. That makes no sense to me. It feels just the same as when people try to explain things like the owlbear from D&D in terms of evolution by natural selection, or try to work out the chemical composition of wildfire from aSoIaF.
QuoteWe have the ability to see the whole picture as it exists within Earwa.That statement seems completely at odds with how Bakker writes. I don't think we ever see "the whole picture". I think filling in the 'gaps' with how things would be in our world is a mistake.
I can grok this, Duskweaver - but clearly the World is mundane in some senses (read: comparable to our flerwed anachronist projections).As I pointed out above, the more meaningful distinction appears to be between the World as the God wills it (or originally created it) and that which bruises the Onta. If you want to use the word 'mundane', I would suggest using it for the former. But anarcane ground is no less 'metaphysical' than anywhere else in Earwa. Does that make sense?
QuoteEveryone might have a connection the Outside but not everyone is affected in life by that connection, right?To say someone is "unaffected in life" by their own soul seems nonsensical to me.
Quoteand we know from the TUC Ch. 1 Excerpt that the division is tricky - clearly some aspects of cognition don't in fact carry over to your experience of soul later, marking an uneasy distinction between mind and soul again).Hmm... I'm going to have to reread.
Seems like there are implications here for the damnation or otherwise of amnesiac Nonmen?
Anyway, I think it'd be helpful if people defined their terms (my inner Confucian is rearing its head again ;) ). What exactly do you guys mean when you say 'mundane', 'psychological', 'soul', 'mind', 'metaphysical', etc. in the context of discussing how Earwa works.
psychological - (agreeing with your distinction that 'mind,' per say is irrelevant) psychological is 'real-world' subject matter projected on Earwa but which is mediated by the soul and its connection to the brain and the brain, not the brain alone - otherwise how can Kellhus dominate people so?
Quotepsychological - (agreeing with your distinction that 'mind,' per say is irrelevant) psychological is 'real-world' subject matter projected on Earwa but which is mediated by the soul and its connection to the brain and the brain, not the brain alone - otherwise how can Kellhus dominate people so?
How? Easy.
Kellhus is deluded, and other people's perception of him is correct.
The Dunyain, with no knowledge of soul metaphysics, have built an elaborate (and false) physical architecture to explain the insights they get through soul metaphysics.
In other words, Kellhus does not read faces, this is just an elaborate delusion that has been built into him, a delusion of mastery. Kellhus in fact reads souls--as everyone who encounters him believes he does--and since Kellhus is incapable of believing he is wrong, he never questions his underlying assumptions (that he is reading faces), he never questions the vocablulary, the language that was inscribed onto him and conditioned into him.
Moenghus figured out that his eyes were a mechanism of control, and to truly see what comes before and read souls without the illusions seeing forced upon by the Dunyain he had to go blind.
... but I have a strange feeling that TSA ends more like Neuropath than Lord of the Rings.I imagine I can't ask how Neuropath ends without it being ruined...
Any ideas on the side effects of eathing Bashrag/dragon? Different/same?
sranc would be sulferous, wouldn't they?Any ideas on the side effects of eathing Bashrag/dragon? Different/same?
If i had to guess i'd say they definitely give you gas.
This is TUC. It's time to get weird.
This is TUC. It's time to get weird.
Yea i agree, if something is missing from this series till now, its weirdness :P.
That is one sad notation - Bakker changed the colouring of dead Sranc between TDTCB and WLW.
I will have to give it a look. I had thought they'd changed from purple/black in TDTCB to white in WLW (it seems so long since Men have warred against Sranc).
Perhaps (hopefully), I am wrong.
Lol. Oh, Gall. That is basically the worst thing you can do for us :P
on another note, when Kellhus and Esmenet come out of the desert in the Warrior prophet, they bathe together. Esmenet notes that Kellhus suffered no privations in the desert that everyone else did, he remained hearty and hale. When they bathe together, a stain of dried blood washes out of his beard.
IF Kellhus is going to eat sranc too (which I think unlikely) it would show solidarity and it might give him an edge in terms of an increased lust for violence, if he has already calculated that some personal battle madness is necessary to break the Consult.
At what point in the journey is this? IIRC I chalked that up to people, lots of people, surrendering their rations to him.. but I don't remember when that scene took place. Also, its possible Esmi was both delusional from malnutrition deluded by Kellhus' "greatness".
But he would not be above eating people... gross. Maybe eating people has strange metaphysical side effects.
I'd find the scene, but amazon is being a dictator and won't let me launch my perfectly working kindle application on my computer. they want me to update it, which I don't want to do. Fucking software companies.
He laughed, pawed at her face as though embarrassed, and she caught and kissed his sun-haloed palm … The waters that trailed from the flaxen ringlets of his hair and beard had been brown—the colour of dried blood.
I think perhaps Kellhus plans on exterminating the remaining non-men at Dagliash anyway.That is an interesting perspective. Why would he want them all dead? To difficult to control/manipulate?
It will at least provide less food for any sranc trailing in the Ordeal's wake.
Though, it may turn out not to be a big deal. Another example of baseless dogma being overturned.
We don't we sranc because it's not on the menu at McDunyains.FTFY
… In our world, we can speak of 'metaphysics' as something dealing with the soul that we don't believe in except as a metaphor, contrasted with the biological mechanism that is the body and the mind it fools itself into thinking it possesses. To the characters in tSA, though, there's no distinction, just as there wasn't to our own ancestors (and this is the point I think Bakker is trying to make throughout the series). In a sense, there's no such thing as 'metaphysics' to Earwans; it's all just 'physics'. The soul and sorcery and life after death are as real to them as rocks and trees and human bodies. Analysing Earwa from a 21st century scientific-materialist perspective is, IMO, a fundamental error.
The soul and sorcery and life after death are as real to them as rocks and trees and human bodies. Analysing Earwa from a 21st century scientific-materialist perspective is, IMO, a fundamental error.
Most people use metaphysical in the former way not the latter.
drahharrow! i think i'm missing something! is this metaphysics + sranc meat something something?
At what point in the journey is this? IIRC I chalked that up to people, lots of people, surrendering their rations to him.. but I don't remember when that scene took place. Also, its possible Esmi was both delusional from malnutrition deluded by Kellhus' "greatness".
But he would not be above eating people... gross. Maybe eating people has strange metaphysical side effects.
Violation of the second law!
Forgot which page it was on, but the guy who said, 'men who fuck sranc' made me LOL in real life. Good stuff :)Cut from them their genitals, for they makes pits of their seed.
At what point in the journey is this? IIRC I chalked that up to people, lots of people, surrendering their rations to him.. but I don't remember when that scene took place. Also, its possible Esmi was both delusional from malnutrition deluded by Kellhus' "greatness".
But he would not be above eating people... gross. Maybe eating people has strange metaphysical side effects.
Violation of the second law!
Hey if it means everybody in the GO is now immortal, everybody wins. Except the Consult, and the sranc. Those poor sranc. They thought they had it bad before?
I like Abercrombie's books.
Forgot which page it was on, but the guy who said, 'men who fuck sranc' made me LOL in real life. Good stuff :)
Fine points. I would add that the one army that is destroyed was the one populated by Nilnameshii and backed by the Vokalati, who were the factions most recently added to the Empire and thus the least tamed elements of Kellhus' forces. It's the Vulgar Holy War all over again.
Fine points. I would add that the one army that is destroyed was the one populated by Nilnameshii and backed by the Vokalati, who were the factions most recently added to the Empire and thus the least tamed elements of Kellhus' forces. It's the Vulgar Holy War all over again.I believe it was also the army the Mandate was traveling with. And that this particular disaster resulted in the bulk of the Mandate being killed, including their Grandmaster (the first human ever to perform a meta-gnostic cant). Given that the Mandate are the school most suited to fighting the Consult...this is a critical loss. Of course the Consult probably knew the disposition of forces. Kellhus and his progeny can spot Skin-Spies, but they cannot personally inspect every single soldier in their quarter-of-a-million strong army. They've got to have informants among the rank and file.
Simas Polchias:
- I like that visual of organism/disease, and Kellhus preparing the Ordeal for the true atrocities ahead is also great.
- I'm not sure if we have any direct correlation to the Womb Plague and the death of anyone other than the mothers (and their stillborn children, but I suspect something metaphysical with that)
The Sharmat:
The Consult need love too :P. Your more playing devils advocate than just cheerleading the Consult. There is a reason Kellhus spent decades planning this assault, and it wasn't because the Consult are a foe he plans to beat easily.
I'd argue that the Mandate, while important, are the 'old guard' if you will. Schoolmen from yesteryear, sworn to Seswatha and no-one else. Might be that Kellhus thought they were a bit of a wild card.
Below is kind of tangential and only loosely ties back to some of your statements. It doesn't really fit into "side effects of eating sranc" but I'll drop it here anyway:
The text is conflicting about how much of the school was destroyed, but certain the lose of the Grandmaster was devastating as he was likely far and away the strongest. I still think, though, that everything of vital importance is held fast to Kellhus, making his army, those generals, and the Swayali, the most key pieces. The rest, I think, are more or less pawns, or maybe even rooks/knights, but still all pieces he is willing to gamble.
The Consult wouldn't dare send their first big surprise directly into Kellhus' arms, and both Kellhus and the Consult know this. So if not Kellhus, destroying the army full of their old enemy, the Mandate, who also appear to be the strongest schoolmen, is a great 2nd choice. Sure, the other army protected by the anagogic schoolmen would have been a softer target, but they aren't really concerned with losses. For maximum damage before they release the big guns, getting rid of the Mandate is certainly worth the cause.
Kellhus probably wasn't able to predict how/when/where the Consult would try to launch a surprise assault, so he needed to bait them into doing it in a controlled way. I think Kellhus sequestered away whatever secrets he couldn't hide within his grasp in the other in-tact army.
I'm going to guess that the anagogic schools, which have been dismissed in everyone's minds as inferior, have taught something of extreme power by Kellhus. Whether he has given them the gnosis, or the means to developing their own, or some kind of meta-diamos, or anagogic-gnostic hybrid, I think they are a surprise waiting to happen. What better place to hide a secret weapon than with those that no one believes are capable of wielding it?
I'd argue that the Mandate, while important, are the 'old guard' if you will. Schoolmen from yesteryear, sworn to Seswatha and no-one else. Might be that Kellhus thought they were a bit of a wild card.
I don't know, theoretically the mandati should be more useful and more reliable than the other schools (excluding the witches).In the grand scheme, the only schools that really matter, from the information we have right now, are the two gnostic schools. The Anagogic schools are largely irrelevant.
Seswatha didn't just create the heart in order to guard the gnosis. He did it to make sure that there would always be an elite school of sorcerer prepared to fight the consult.More importantly, I think he created it as a way to avoid dying. Regardless, it was built to maintain the memory of the Consult and to jealously guard the secrets of the gnosis. If Seswatha wanted elite sorcerers, he would have made it such that the Mandate could give the secrets of the gnosis to others. If the three seas was filled with legions of Gnosi, they'd be far better off than with some 50ish Mandate schoolmen of the rank.
The dream's have programmed them with a single minded devotion to to the cause.Which is a huge problem, not an asset, if "the cause" that Seswatha was after is not exactly 100% identical to Kellhus' plans. To me, this seems very unlikely.
More importantly, the dreams serve to essentially train them for the brutal ordeal of a war against the consult. Night after night the heart has run them through battle drills. Familiarizing them with their enemy and their enemies tactics. Preparing them for the consult's atrocities so that they won't be horrified when they face them. Running their souls through simulations of combat over and over and over. They have all been programmed to be soldiers in this war. They, more than any others, know what it feels like to stand against the consult. When the time comes they wont be able to do anything else but fight bravely, they've done it countless times and now it is second nature to them. Seswatha has done the closest thing to providing Kellhus with a "blooded" school. The next best thing to having sorcerers who have actually fought the consult before.
I think Kellhus actually says this in the first trilogy. He says that the dunyain believed that the function of dreams was to prepare the soul for situations it had not yet encountered.I think you might be correct, but I can't remember the context. They have been prepared, but I think too rigidly, with too much tradition, too much inefficiency, too much allegiance to another. They represent more of a liability and a danger to Kellhus than the tactical advantages they may offer, most of which have already been used at this point anyway.
That all assumes that Seswatha's intentions aren't completely beyond our understanding obviously. I know he's a liar but it does seem that in this at least his intentions were sincere.We are told that Seswatha's intentions are to destroy the Consult. I believe this to be true absolutely, however I don't think that this has to be his only objective. Even if it were, Seswatha was no super-human intellect. Not the product of 2000 years of genetic selection. Even if the Mandate where purely a tool be the most efficient way to destroy the Consult through the ages, it is still a human plan. Kellhus needs Kellhus' plans. His own school, his own mysticism, and because the Mandate cannot be fully extracted from their own darkness that comes before, they must be made irrelevent, if not destroyed entirely.
We are told that Seswatha's intentions are to destroy the Consult. I believe this to be true absolutely, however I don't think that this has to be his only objective. Even if it were, Seswatha was no super-human intellect. Not the product of 2000 years of genetic selection. Even if the Mandate where purely a tool be the most efficient way to destroy the Consult through the ages, it is still a human plan. Kellhus needs Kellhus' plans. His own school, his own mysticism, and because the Mandate cannot be fully extracted from their own darkness that comes before, they must be made irrelevent, if not destroyed entirely.
More importantly, I think he created it as a way to avoid dying.Yeah, I think this is very possible. The dreams serve a bunch of purposes. They're clearly doing something new to Akka. And from that we have proof that Seswathas a damn liar, so I wouldn't put anything past him.
Regardless, it was built to maintain the memory of the Consult and to jealously guard the secrets of the gnosis. If Seswatha wanted elite sorcerers, he would have made it such that the Mandate could give the secrets of the gnosis to others. If the three seas was filled with legions of Gnosi, they'd be far better off than with some 50ish Mandate schoolmen of the rank.He did. You just have to be a member of the few and willing to touch the Heart. Whatever ulterior motives he definitely had, this makes sense. He wanted to keep the people with the Gnosis focused on the Consult and ready to actually fight. I think they serve all these purposes.
I disagree. Arming and training men isn't enough. Experience is invaluable. The Quya have been doing this millennia. The dream's aren't a perfect replacement for having actual professional soldiers, but they are a lot better than nothing. The other schoolmen are basically academics. At best, they have played the role of artillery. They have very little experience fighting other human magi. Zero experience fighting Quya or dragons. And they are soft. They've never seen anything like what the consult is capable of.More importantly, the dreams serve to essentially train them for the brutal ordeal of a war against the consult. Night after night the heart has run them through battle drills... Seswatha has done the closest thing to providing Kellhus with a "blooded" school. The next best thing to having sorcerers who have actually fought the consult before.This is maybe something small to be considered, but not a huge deal.
Big picture, the Mandate make up a tiny portion of the war and their experience was more important before the march began.The mandate might make up a tiny portion of the war if you include Mundane humans but in terms of relevance they are a substantial portion Kellhus' army. The mundane humans are just a vessel to protect the schoolmen and deliver them to the battlefield. Ultimately, the schoolmen are the army.
They were built to be teachers.Maybe. To me the mechanics of the dreams seem like they are exactly what you would make if you wanted to create fanatic sleeper soldiers. They focus on big battles (some of which Ses didn't even attend) and the horrors of war. Seswatha fighting dragons . Fighting Quya. Being captured by Mek. And then they drill them every night.
I still stand by my idea that eating Sranc will similar but short-term effects to Qirri, possibly even stronger than Qirri, with much worse long-term effects.Sranc are to Meth as Qirri is to Adderal? I dig it.
Also, Seswatha at least claimed that touching the Heart to receive the Gnosis was a temporary measure. Akka says that they are only supposed to guard the Gnosis until the Consult returns. Then they're supposed to distribute their weaponry freely. I could totally see that being a lie told by Seswatha but I had assumed that the reason the Gnosis was still not being distributed freely was a choice by Kellhus.If thats true (I don't remember that being said), then it may point to either Kellhus or the Mandate not wanting the gnosis to be free. Like you said, probably Kellhus, but even without him I'd say it wouldnt be released. Men guard nothing so jealously as power.
Look at Akka. When he was kidnapped by the scarlet spires and tortured, he leaned on the dreams to get through it. He had already been trained for that situation and was unphased. The same will happen when the first mage battles start. The other mages will be unprepared and they will fold. The mandate will follow Kellhus' orders to the end. I think thats usefulWhile I think this scene was showing us that Seswatha may be more alive than we were led to believe, I think there is something of vital importance here. Post torture, during the escape, Akka goes what amounts to super-saiyan (and/or Avatar state), briefly becoming more powerful than he ever could have been on his own. If all the Mandati could be triggered into this state during a full scale battle, they'd be even more extreme of a force to be reckoned with.
Good rebuttals all, dragharrow. I'm not convinced, but I haven't anything else to bring forth.Thanks. Whatever the case is, I agree with you that the disaster and the deaths of those mandati were not a mistake. Kellhus had a larger plan or at least saw it as strategically necessary.
I'll look for it. Not that it proves anything.QuoteAlso, Seswatha at least claimed that touching the Heart to receive the Gnosis was a temporary measure.If thats true (I don't remember that being said), then it may point to either Kellhus or the Mandate not wanting the gnosis to be free. Like you said, probably Kellhus, but even without him I'd say it wouldnt be released. Men guard nothing so jealously as power.
Also, it does point out that maybe Seswatha did care for the World.
While I think this scene was showing us that Seswatha may be more alive than we were led to believe, I think there is something of vital importance here.I think it shows that as well. It isn't just that they've been trained to be soldiers but they've also been imprinted with something of Seswatha himself. Maybe a lot of Seswatha.
Post torture, during the escape, Akka goes what amounts to super-saiyan (and/or Avatar state), briefly becoming more powerful than he ever could have been on his own. If all the Mandati could be triggered into this state during a full scale battle, they'd be even more extreme of a force to be reckoned with.Lol, well said. I think it is possible that a similar state could be triggered in any mandate sorcerer but I doubt it is likely that any carry Seswatha's power to such a great degree. Or, alternatively, most lack the raw power to replicate the feat regardless of channeling Seswatha.
Maybe Kellhus was counting on this and it didn't happen, he expected them to go into the Seswatha State under the extreme pressure of a devastating surpise attack, for long enough for him to come to their aide, and certainly long enough for most of the Mandate to survive pretty much any onslaught.Hmm maybe. I think Kellhus understands the nature of the Seswatha imprint well enough that he wouldn't make that mistake. He has had unlimited access to the mandate since the time of his ascension to the throne as well as a personal knowledge of Akka. I think he is probably aware of whether it is possible to trigger the Seswatha-State in any other of the mandati and if so, what kinds of triggers that requires.
If thats true (I don't remember that being said), then it may point to either Kellhus or the Mandate not wanting the gnosis to be free. Like you said, probably Kellhus, but even without him I'd say it wouldnt be released. Men guard nothing so jealously as power.
Also, it does point out that maybe Seswatha did care for the World.
Do I teach him the Gnosis?
To his gut he balked at the notion—the mere thought of surrendering the Gnosis to someone outside his School made him blanch. He wasn’t even sure he could teach Kellhus the Gnosis, even if he desired. His knowledge of the Gnosis was the one thing he shared with Seswatha, whose imprint owned every movement of his slumbering soul.
Will you let me? Do you see what I see?
Never—never!—in the history of their School had a sorcerer of rank betrayed the Gnosis. Only the Gnosis had allowed the Mandate to survive. Only the Gnosis had allowed them to carry Seswatha’s war through the millennia. Lose it, and they became no more than a Minor School. His brothers, Achamian knew, would fight themselves to extinction to prevent that from happening. They would hunt both of them without relenting, and they would kill them if they could. They would not listen to reasons … And the name, Drusas Achamian, would become a curse in the dark halls of Atyersus.
But what was this other than greed or jealousy? The Second Apocalypse was imminent. Hadn’t the time come to arm all the Three Seas? Hadn’t Seswatha himself bid them share their arsenal before the shadow fell?
He had …
And wouldn’t this make Achamian the most faithful of all Mandate Schoolmen?
iand possibly Sranchitis.I like this one in particular
iand possibly Sranchitis.I like this one in particular
On eating Sranc. Kellhus already knows what is going to happen, right? You know damn well he made a few Scalpers go on a Sranc diet. There is zero chance he pulled this out of nowhere, even if he didn't think they would have to. He won't though, he'll transport back to some city close and have dinner, wine and a few concubines.
But in light of dwindling supplies, the Aspect-Emperor’s decision to allow his men to consume the flesh of fallen Sranc could have consequences even He couldn’t have foreseen.