The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Almanac: TAE Edition => Topic started by: Bolivar on March 28, 2016, 03:49:50 pm

Title: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on March 28, 2016, 03:49:50 pm
As The Judging Eye comes to an end, The Aspect Emperor calls a gathering of potentates in the Umbilicus, and the horrors of Cil-Aujas come to the fore.

Chapter 15:

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He sat on one of the lower tiers, and rather than descend, the Aspect-Emperor simply tilted in his floating posture to study him. The rings of light about his head and hands gilded the man’s face and shoulders with a patina of gold. The caste-noble’s dark eyes glittered with tears.

Do Kellhus' halos now cast light? Are they no longer the light of delusion?

When I first read TAE, I thought the irony of this series is a man who comes to deceive everyone and actually becomes a messiah. After our first stretch of the slog, I now agree with Achamian that all of it is a lie. To me Kellhus is now enhancing his deception with sorcery and the Men of the Circumfix simply don't stand a chance. That could explain why his halos now cast light, as we see sorcery do the same for the Skin Eaters  in Cil-Aujas.

Chapter 16:

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She has read enough to know these are not just any Men. They are the original Men of Eärwa, the Emwama, the slaves exterminated by her ancestors in the earliest days of the Tusk.

Along with the previous discussion about their guttural language, I think the Emwama might have been another species of hominids and not actually Men. Anthropology teaches us that the primitive cavemen like the neanderthaals were not our evolutionary forefathers but actually contemporaries of early homo sapiens. And the reason humans are the only hominids remaining is because we wiped all the others off the face of the planet.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 28, 2016, 05:38:28 pm
See, I don't know. The last we get from Kellhus is the Moe convo. And, he certainly seemed to be showing weaknesses there. His love for Esme, the twig and not wanting to let Moe join with the Consult. And, that's all we really have to go on. I believe he is still deceiving the Men of Earwa, but I believe his intentions are for the best of humanity. That's why I don't believe it's all a lie. Like, what's the difference between Kellhus and Inri Sejenus? How did Inri ascend?  Its all Viramsata, IMHO.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: profgrape on March 28, 2016, 06:51:51 pm
1.  The tail end of Akka's final dream, conversation between Seswatha and Celmomas:

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Achamian placed the scroll-case on the table before him, so that it seemed the prize of the pieces arrayed on the benjuka plate beyond it.  He looked up to meeting his chieftain's pensive gaze, found himself pondering the archaic script. "Doom," it read, "should you find me broken."
[Seswatha speaking]"The inscription ... what does it mean?"
"Keep it, old friend.  Make it your deepest secret."
"These dreams you have been having ... You must tell me more!"

"Doom" for whom, Celmomas?  Can you through us a friggin' bone here?  I agree with Seswatha: you must tell us more!  Seriously, though, this suggests that Celmomas' dreams are what led him to believe that "an Anasurimbor would return..."  It stands to reason that the last thing he told Seswatha was the primary takeaway from his dreams.

As an aside, consider this: Akka is compelled by his dreams to find the map to Ishual.  And here, he dreams that Celmomas' was compelled to build Ishual... by dreams!  There's been a lot of speculation who (or what) is behind Akka's dreams.  But now I also wonder if there wasn't someone (or something) behind Celmomas' dreams as well?

2. As Cleric is overtaken by the Wight-in-the-Mountain:

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"I dream," Cleric's voice booms through the wind howling black, "that I am a God."

Assuming that this is Gin'Yursis speaking through Akka, and assuming that he's experiencing eternal damnation in the Outside, it's interesting that he describes the experience as dreaming that he's a God.  Especially as signs point toward the Gods being Ciphrang.

3. Mimara, as she repels the Wight:

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I guard them! she weeps, standing frail beneath the white-bleached Seal. "I hold the Gates!"

Assuming (a common theme for this post) that the "Gates" are the series of fortified passes through the Great Kayarsus, why is Mimara able to convince the Wight that she holds them?  One of many awesome-but-confusing moments in TSA.

4. After escaping Cil-Aujas, Akka contemplates the implications of his earlier dream:

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"Bury it," the ancient High-King had said. "Bury it in the Coffers ..."
In Marrow, Acamian had mentioned the Coffers the way a trapper baits his snare, as a crude goad meant to drive crude men.  But now...
His lie.  Fate was making his lie true.

The last sentence is a doozy.  For one, it's describing Viramsata more or less exactly.  And it also references "fate", and by association, Anagke.  Finally, the fact that he considers it to be his lie at all.  Consider the conversation he has with Kosoter and co. in Marrow:

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Achamian could feel himself wilt.  Wild-limbed imaginings flickered through his soul, hot with screams and blood.  He could feel tremors knock through his knees.
"Go easy now, friend," Sarl murmured in what seemed genuine conciliation. "The Captain here can piss halfway cross the world, if need be.  Just answer his question."
Achamian swallowed, blinked. "The Coffers," some traitor with his voice said.

I'd always thought that the "traitor with his voice" was a metaphor.  But what if he's literally compelled to say this, the lie that the future dream makes true?
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 29, 2016, 11:34:21 am
Sorry guys, been battling whatever this sickness is, so I've been largely in bed.

Chapter 15:

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And short of heaven how could such an intellect be? Eskeles had claimed that his soul was the God's soul in small, that divinity was the cipher. If a man were to think the thoughts of a god, would not Men be as children before him?

This is the crux of it all, right here, the question of Kellhus' nature, now.  Thing is, nothing has really changed has it?  Sorweel hears of Akka's account, which we know is true.  We know what the nature of TTT is, how it is a lie made to direct the course of culture and history.  Yet, we still find ourselves drawn to "good-guy" Kellhus as if he hasn't deceived us as he has everyone else.

We know that Kellhus spins lies.  We know he manipulates those around him.  So, the question is really, "to what end?"  What does Kellhus want with all this?  Is it really all for the greater good?  What would that even be?

No, I think Kellhus is a false as ever.  His "divine" mantle as false as the halos around his head and hands.  Nothing but the trappings of delusion, a delusion in action, lies made real, even if they are still untrue.

I think Moe might have given us a clue, back in TTT:
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“The God sleeps … It has ever been thus. Only by striving for the Absolute may we awaken Him. Meaning. Purpose. These words name not something given … no, they name our task.”

Is this what Kellhus is after?  Achieving the Absolute?  What would that mean?  Is that the point where he would ascend to true God-hood? 
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 29, 2016, 12:47:42 pm
Great points H, and all you said is true. Again, I'm just drawn back to those things in the meeting with Moe and leading up to it. His feelings for Esme, Serwe, hell the Circumfix in general. I think something has changed in Kellhus, and his goals might be tad bit different than what one would expect from a Dunyain. Does he still deceive? Yes. Is everything Mission, and he'll do whatever needs doing to achieve his goals? Yes. Is he ruthless in achieving those goals? Of course. But, I tend to think that everything he dealt with in PoN, changed him, made him a little bit more Man than Dunyain. He might sacrifice nations, but I still believe his interests lie with mankind.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 29, 2016, 12:58:24 pm
Well, while I agree the Kellhus does "crack" in places, before the meeting with Moe in TTT, I think he actually tells us, flatly, what is going on right when he stabs Moe:

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“You are Dûnyain still, Father.”
“As are—”
The eyeless face, once perfectly obdurate and inscrutable, suddenly twitched in the ghost of a grimace. Kellhus pulled his knife from his father’s chest, retreated several steps. He watched his father probe the wound with his fingers, a weeping perforation just beneath his rib cage.
“I am more,” the Warrior-Prophet said.

I don't think that Kellhus is a more "human" Dunyain, that would certainly be less, not more.  Indeed, by his own admission, a Dunyain would side with the Consult.  So, what does that mean for Kellhus?  I think it's the fact that he fancies himself a god.  The halos being the biggest clue to that.  He won't side with the Consult, because he wants the god-hood, not just some escape from damnation.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 29, 2016, 01:11:05 pm
Well, he just believes he is more. Moe says he's mad and the wilderness has broken him. But, I believe we're arguing two sides of the same coin. Without humanity, he cannot reach God-hood, if indeed that is his goal. If the Consult wins, the Outside is shut. So, that makes me think, in the end he has to side with Mankind and do what's best for them in the long run.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 29, 2016, 01:16:58 pm
True, it's something of semantics, but I don't see Kellhus as a savior at all.  Where the Consult wants to seal the world from the Outside, I think Kellhus wants to dominate the Outside like he has the Inside.  The truth is that I don't think either of those options are actually "good" for humanity.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: profgrape on March 29, 2016, 03:44:50 pm
I think that Kellhus' caring about godhood is why Moenghus considers him "mad".  The idea of being a savior seems distinctly un-Dunyain.  Or, for that matter, really caring about whether the world stays or goes.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 29, 2016, 03:59:58 pm
Chapter 16:

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In shallow sockets here and there even this layer had given out, especially near the centre, where her stepfather had once hung out of proportion in the sky. There, after dabbing away the white powder with her fingertips, she saw a young man's mosaic face, black hair high in the wind, child-wide eyes fixed upon some obscured foe.

Irni Sejenus?

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"Mimara," a voice calls. "What's the matter, girl?" It's Somandutta, the one man here that she trusts, and only then because he is no man.

She already realizes that Soma is a skin-spy?  It doesn't seem like it and yet this line...

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And somehow, impossibly, passes through.

She blinks on the far side of contradiction, her face and shoulders pulled back in a warm wind, a breath, a premonition of summer rain. And she sees it, a point of luminous white, a certainty, shining out from the pit that blackens her grasp. A voice rises, a voice without word or tone, drowsy with compassion, and the light grows and grows, shrinking the abyss to a rind, to the false foil that it is, burning to dust, and the glory, the magnificence, shines forth, radiant, blinding...

I think we have discussed this before, but is it Mimarma who brings the wright into the frame by looking into the Chorae?

Quote
"I dream," Cleric's voice booms through the wind howling black, "that I am a God."

Is that what it is like to be caught in a Topoi?  The feeling that you are immortal and everlasting, yet, still somehow earning, in a way?

Quote
The Gates are no longer guarded.

...

"I guard them!" she weeps, standing frail beneath the white-bleached Seal. "I hold the Gates!"

I always figured that Gates mentioned were a play on the fact that the Gates to Cil-Aujas were not guarded (which Cleric remarks about earlier) and the idea that no one guards the Gates between Hell (the Outside) and the world itself.

Interlude:

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The Prince-Imperial fluttered his lids as though overpowered by warmth and weariness. "But he has more power..." he whispered, pretending to fall asleep. He would open his eyes later, when her breathing slipped into the long trough of dreams.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: Alia on March 29, 2016, 06:54:52 pm
Chapter 16:

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"Mimara," a voice calls. "What's the matter, girl?" It's Somandutta, the one man here that she trusts, and only then because he is no man.

She already realizes that Soma is a skin-spy?  It doesn't seem like it and yet this line...

I took it to mean that to Mimara Soma is a boy among men.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 29, 2016, 07:19:09 pm
Chapter 16:

Quote
"Mimara," a voice calls. "What's the matter, girl?" It's Somandutta, the one man here that she trusts, and only then because he is no man.

She already realizes that Soma is a skin-spy?  It doesn't seem like it and yet this line...

I took it to mean that to Mimara Soma is a boy among men.

Yeah, having finished the chapter now, it makes sense as that.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 29, 2016, 08:37:30 pm
I think that Kellhus' caring about godhood is why Moenghus considers him "mad".  The idea of being a savior seems distinctly un-Dunyain.  Or, for that matter, really caring about whether the world stays or goes.

So then, what do you think it means to reach the Absolute? That's the most Dunyain thing possible is it not? We can't have it both ways here people, lol.

ETA: so the Absolute is becoming a totally Self-Moving soul, that which precedes everything, right? Which sounds to me like becoming a god.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: profgrape on March 29, 2016, 09:15:19 pm
Heh, true MSJ. 

To clarify, it's that Kellhus seems to care about godhood as conceived by Man.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 29, 2016, 09:24:17 pm
Heh, true MSJ. 

To clarify, it's that Kellhus seems to care about godhood as conceived by Man.

But that's my point, doesn't the gods need humanity? So doesn't his interest lie with protecting humanity or who will he even be a God to?
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 30, 2016, 11:35:28 am
Heh, true MSJ. 

To clarify, it's that Kellhus seems to care about godhood as conceived by Man.

But that's my point, doesn't the gods need humanity? So doesn't his interest lie with protecting humanity or who will he even be a God to?

Well, I don't think The Absolute is god-hood in the same way that Yatwer is a god, or any of the 100.  I think what Kellhus is after is domination of both the Outside and Inside.  Nothing left unconditioned by him, he would be The Primer Mover, the sole point from which all actions flow.

Is this good?  I don't really know.  I don't think it's as bad as some of the alternatives, but I still don't see Kellhus as a savior of Mankind.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 30, 2016, 02:29:43 pm
Heh, true MSJ. 

To clarify, it's that Kellhus seems to care about godhood as conceived by Man.

But that's my point, doesn't the gods need humanity? So doesn't his interest lie with protecting humanity or who will he even be a God to?

Well, I don't think The Absolute is god-hood in the same way that Yatwer is a god, or any of the 100.  I think what Kellhus is after is domination of both the Outside and Inside.  Nothing left unconditioned by him, he would be The Primer Mover, the sole point from which all actions flow.

Is this good?  I don't really know.  I don't think it's as bad as some of the alternatives, but I still don't see Kellhus as a savior of Mankind.

OK, let me present it this way. If Kellhus and the Great Ordeal succeed at stopping the Consult and the No-God, will the denizen  of Earwa think of him as a Savior? I guess there is another option also. He could be aiming to defeat the Consult and shut the Outside, hence creating a disenchanted world.

Still, I think you guys are overlooking evidence presented to us in PoN. RSB went through pains to show us that he was human. He did care about certain people, did experience emotions not in line with a Dunyain. And, I believe its important and can't be ignored. There is a reason why we haven't had a POV of him. I don't read TAE and think of Kellhus as a Savior. No, I tend to think along your same train of thought. But, there are always twists, and I don't think Bakker would've made a point to show those things in PoN if they wasn't a key piece to this puzzle.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 30, 2016, 03:07:01 pm
Well, in Prince of Nothing we are subject to Kellhus' manipulation, we are a direct party to it and even with it being from his own POV sometimes we still fall for it.  We see Kellhus as something of a sympathetic figure, a man against the world, an actual savior since he did save the Holy War.  In Aspect Emperor, he is aloof and so we see his manipulation much more indirectly which makes it both less overt and seemingly less sinister.  Of course, though, without knowing where he is going with all of it means we really don't know if it's less or more.

If Kellhus really did go mad on the Circumfix, wouldn't take make him less apt to have human emotion?  Less likely to be an actual savior?  I'm not buying any madness really.  I think it's all cold and calculated on Kellhus' part.  He does show vestigial emotions from time to time, even Moe remarks that this is the case for Dunyain, it's not something out of the ordinary.

Unfortunately, none of this brings me closer to what Kellhus' actual goal is.  I think too much in-the-box.  No doubt the answer is off-the-wall, but that's not how my brain works.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 30, 2016, 07:10:26 pm
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If Kellhus really did go mad on the Circumfix, wouldn't take make him less apt to have human emotion?

See, I have always took it as, Moe saying it made him mad and broken as making him able to experience more human emotion. We're not talking about what makes me and you crazy. I think, to a Dunyain, being mad is just that, experiencing emotions. 
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 30, 2016, 07:29:59 pm
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If Kellhus really did go mad on the Circumfix, wouldn't take make him less apt to have human emotion?

See, I have always took it as, Moe saying it made him mad and broken as making him able to experience more human emotion. We're not talking about what makes me and you crazy. I think, to a Dunyain, being mad is just that, experiencing emotions. 

Yeah, that's plausible.  I'm just not buying Kellhus having "gone soft."  He certainly isn't soft in letting Esmenet toil away trying to hold together the scraps of Empire, or Kel killing Sammy, or Maith killing Inrilatus, or in Maith being killed.  While maybe he didn't see all that, no way he saw none of that (mostly the abandoning Esmenet).  There is no way that he could have imagined that leaving Fanayal alive wouldn't cause issues and if he was so soft-hearted to Esmenet, why let that happen to her?  It just doesn't add up to me.

No, I think the "madness" is that on the Circumfix he saw what he believes is the plan to dominate not just Earwa, but the Outside too.  To what end, I don't know.  Possibly the same end as the Consult, just minus quite so much murder (or maybe not).
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: Blackstone on March 30, 2016, 08:41:08 pm
Quote
If Kellhus really did go mad on the Circumfix, wouldn't take make him less apt to have human emotion?

See, I have always took it as, Moe saying it made him mad and broken as making him able to experience more human emotion. We're not talking about what makes me and you crazy. I think, to a Dunyain, being mad is just that, experiencing emotions. 

Yeah, that's plausible.  I'm just not buying Kellhus having "gone soft."  He certainly isn't soft in letting Esmenet toil away trying to hold together the scraps of Empire, or Kel killing Sammy, or Maith killing Inrilatus, or in Maith being killed.  While maybe he didn't see all that, no way he saw none of that (mostly the abandoning Esmenet).  There is no way that he could have imagined that leaving Fanayal alive wouldn't cause issues and if he was so soft-hearted to Esmenet, why let that happen to her?  It just doesn't add up to me.

No, I think the "madness" is that on the Circumfix he saw what he believes is the plan to dominate not just Earwa, but the Outside too.  To what end, I don't know.  Possibly the same end as the Consult, just minus quite so much murder (or maybe not).

I disagree. I think he does have some human emotion. He couldn't possibly have foreseen Maithanet being killed, because that was an act of a god. And I think he did know the empire would fall apart, just as he knew there was nothing he could do to stop it. He is trying for the greater good of saving mankind vs saving his family. So all of the deaths you mention were unavoidable.
I think Kellhus starts to believe in his own divinity while on the circumfix, which is also an indicator that he may have broken.

Isn't the madness Moe speaks of the fact that Kellhus thinks he hears the No-god?
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 30, 2016, 08:50:40 pm
Quote
Kellhus, and his goals might be tad bit different than what one would expect from a Dunyain. Does he still deceive? Yes. Is everything Mission, and he'll do whatever needs doing to achieve his goals? Yes. Is he ruthless in achieving those goals? Of course.

I don't believe that Kellhus is soft, as I said before. I disagree that the "madness" from the Circumfix was him seeing further in the TT. No, I think it was him seeing Serwe's lifeless body and realizing he did indeed care for her. Him realizing he has genuine feelings for Esme. I just think that those feeling were made evident for a reason, and play into his decisions. Is he Dunyain? Yes. Is he all about his mission, whatever that may be? Yep. But, I have a feeling his feelings have altered the TT. I very well could be reading into it all wrong, there's no doubt about it.

On another note, when Akka has the dream in Cil-Aujus where he asks where Seswatha is, makes me think that maybe Kellhus is indeed sending those dreams. It goes against everything I believe about Seswatha, but it really stuck out.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on March 30, 2016, 09:18:10 pm
I finished last night, what a finale. Especially the explanation of why Cil-Aujas became a topos, which I had forgotten. I'm starting to question the Nonman Tutelage because they really could not give a fuck less about humans. And you have to wonder what the significance of their "love":

Quote
“They-they called-called us-us false-false.”
  “They are children who can never grow,”Cleric replies. “They could do no different.”
  “I-I loved-loved them-them. I-I loved-loved them-them so-so much-much.”
  “So did we all, at one time.”

Is there supposed to be a shift after the Cuno-Inchoroi wars, the way they viewed their Emwama slaves and their Earwan pupils? Just seems unlikely.

I don't want to go too deep on my thoughts on Kellhus but while I do think he only serves his own interests, there is room for ambiguity (obviously, as with everything in this series). He had a nervous breakdown on the circumfix when confronted with Serwe's death, he speaks to the World/the God while heading to Kyudea, and he does consider himself "more" than Dunyain, as the omniscient narrator names him The Warrior Prophet after stabbing Moenghus. At the same time, he admits in his internal monologs he is still deceiving everyone post-circumfix, and he also tells the Ground men have no heart for the truth. I also think the significance of Achamian saying Kellhus speaks of an Apocalypse at the end suggests Kellhus is the second apocalypse, not just the harbinger or a principal. Whether that's the horrific designs of the Consult or something else I'm not committed either way yet. In fact, I wouldn't mind if at the end of the series we're still arguing over what actually happened just like the circumfix. But I'm always going to fall back to this infamous interview gem when interpreting his actions:

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The original plan was to have Kellhus progressively disappear as a viewpoint character as he gained power throughout The Prince of Nothing. The problem, it turned out, was that all my draft readers began to believe him, rather than continually conditioning everything he said and did with what they had learned from their initial glimpses into his manipulative psyche. So I was forced to go back and to add several viewpoint sections to remind them what Kellhus was up to.

http://blogcritics.org/interview-r-scott-bakker-author-of/
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: geoffrobro on March 30, 2016, 09:18:57 pm
Quote


On another note, when Akka has the dream in Cil-Aujus where he asks where Seswatha is, makes me think that maybe Kellhus is indeed sending those dreams. It goes against everything I believe about Seswatha, but it really stuck out.
In chapter 14 while taking their first rest in Cil-Aujus, Akka has a dream that Sauglish is destroyed beneath him. It's towers were squat! He dreams of seeing gnostic magic across the sky. Then jump to a dragons POV in flight looking at the whirlwind feeling the rumble of the No-god then jumps to a POV that claims to be unseen, a insubstantial witness, alone. Looking for seswatha! Then it ends.

AKKA DREAM HE'S THE NO-GOD AT THE DESTRUCTION OF SAUGLISH!


Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 30, 2016, 10:51:40 pm
Geoffrobro, yea I seen that post before I read the scene. I don't recall where the whirlwind was mentioned. Was it in a previous part of the dream? Like the dream was broken up by going between POV's? Hell, maybe I just missed it. Though, if I did miss it, that's really neat and a great catch. Do you think the No-God could be behind the dreams?
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on March 31, 2016, 10:23:27 am
I think he is mad as in he is also inside the lie. Don't "believe your own hype" is how it's said in the prize fighting game.

Kellhus believes his own hype and is in for a rude awakening.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 31, 2016, 11:19:26 am
Geoffrobro, yea I seen that post before I read the scene. I don't recall where the whirlwind was mentioned. Was it in a previous part of the dream? Like the dream was broken up by going between POV's? Hell, maybe I just missed it. Though, if I did miss it, that's really neat and a great catch. Do you think the No-God could be behind the dreams?

This is the dream:

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The Library of Sauglish burned beneath him in his Dream, its towers squat and monumental within garlands of flame. Dragons banked about mighty plumes of smoke. The glitter of sorcery sparked across the heights—the blinding calligraphy of the Gnosis.

Its wings threshing the air, Skafra bared corroded teeth, shrieked out to the horizon, to the whirlwind roping black across the distant plains. A rumble deeper than a final heartbeat.

And Achamian hung unseen, an insubstantial witness... Alone.

Where? Where was Seswatha?

I always thought that with Seswatha "missing" in this dream that Akka was Seswatha.  The Whirlwind seems to still be just something on the horizon here...
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: Somnambulist on March 31, 2016, 12:11:04 pm
Geoffrobro, yea I seen that post before I read the scene. I don't recall where the whirlwind was mentioned. Was it in a previous part of the dream? Like the dream was broken up by going between POV's? Hell, maybe I just missed it. Though, if I did miss it, that's really neat and a great catch. Do you think the No-God could be behind the dreams?

This is the dream:

Quote
The Library of Sauglish burned beneath him in his Dream, its towers squat and monumental within garlands of flame. Dragons banked about mighty plumes of smoke. The glitter of sorcery sparked across the heights—the blinding calligraphy of the Gnosis.

Its wings threshing the air, Skafra bared corroded teeth, shrieked out to the horizon, to the whirlwind roping black across the distant plains. A rumble deeper than a final heartbeat.

And Achamian hung unseen, an insubstantial witness... Alone.

Where? Where was Seswatha?

I always thought that with Seswatha "missing" in this dream that Akka was Seswatha.  The Whirlwind seems to still be just something on the horizon here...

That always seemed strange to me, though.  The Mandate always dream that they are Seswatha, reliving his experiences.  Akka knows this as well as anyone.  Yet he's asking where Seswatha is.  It seems he's perceiving the dream from a different perspective than is usual, and he can't see where Seswatha should be.  It also states that he's an insubstantial witness, whereas 'normally' they experience the dreams like they were really there, not just as an observer.  Strange.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 31, 2016, 01:11:20 pm
That always seemed strange to me, though.  The Mandate always dream that they are Seswatha, reliving his experiences.  Akka knows this as well as anyone.  Yet he's asking where Seswatha is.  It seems he's perceiving the dream from a different perspective than is usual, and he can't see where Seswatha should be.  It also states that he's an insubstantial witness, whereas 'normally' they experience the dreams like they were really there, not just as an observer.  Strange.

I wonder if it is as simple as a foreshadowing of what will be at Sauglish when Akka gets there?  No Seswatha, just a dragon?

I doubt it's that though.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 31, 2016, 01:29:49 pm
Well, the unsubstantial observer is what struck me. Kellhus found a way to learn the gnosis without grasping the heart. Has he learned how to experience the dreams also? Has he learned how to manipulate those dreams? I'm not sold on Kellhus manipulating the dreams to Akka. But, its definitely something to think about, IMHO.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 31, 2016, 01:51:27 pm
Well, the unsubstantial observer is what struck me. Kellhus found a way to learn the gnosis without grasping the heart. Has he learned how to experience the dreams also? Has he learned how to manipulate those dreams? I'm not sold on Kellhus manipulating the dreams to Akka. But, its definitely something to think about, IMHO.

Well, when you are in some one else's dream, you are an unsubstantial observer too though, right?

I don't even know what I am implying here though.  Akka in another person's dream?  But who?  And it still doesn't explain why no Seswatha.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 31, 2016, 02:28:45 pm
Well, the unsubstantial observer is what struck me. Kellhus found a way to learn the gnosis without grasping the heart. Has he learned how to experience the dreams also? Has he learned how to manipulate those dreams? I'm not sold on Kellhus manipulating the dreams to Akka. But, its definitely something to think about, IMHO.

Well, when you are in some one else's dream, you are an unsubstantial observer too though, right?

I don't even know what I am implying here though.  Akka in another person's dream?  But who?  And it still doesn't explain why no Seswatha.

Lol. These books have a habit of making us feel confused. It makes me think that he is seeing through Kellhus's perspective. At least, that's what came to mind.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 31, 2016, 02:56:11 pm
Lol. These books have a habit of making us feel confused. It makes me think that he is seeing through Kellhus's perspective. At least, that's what came to mind.

But Kellhus doesn't have the dreams, as far as we know, right?  I still don't get why Kellhus would send Akka the dreams though, so I'm definitely biased to it not having to do with him...
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: geoffrobro on March 31, 2016, 03:07:08 pm
That always seemed strange to me, though.  The Mandate always dream that they are Seswatha, reliving his experiences.  Akka knows this as well as anyone.  Yet he's asking where Seswatha is.  It seems he's perceiving the dream from a different perspective than is usual, and he can't see where Seswatha should be.  It also states that he's an insubstantial witness, whereas 'normally' they experience the dreams like they were really there, not just as an observer.  Strange.

I wonder if it is as simple as a foreshadowing of what will be at Sauglish when Akka gets there?  No Seswatha, just a dragon?

I doubt it's that though.

I think its from Nau-Cayûti's POV. If Nau-Cayûti is the No-God then this makes sense, looking for Ses because he betrayed him.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 31, 2016, 03:08:08 pm
Well its like I said in my previous post. Hedidnt need to grasp the heart to learn the gnosis. Could he have found a way to experience the dreams also? Kellhus seems to find ways around these things.

ETA: H, I'm not sold on it either. Just spitballing really.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 31, 2016, 03:12:17 pm
That always seemed strange to me, though. 
I think its from Nau-Cayûti's POV. If Nau-Cayûti is the No-God then this makes sense, looking for Ses because he betrayed him.

Interesting. That could certainly be a possibility. Never would've thought of that.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: geoffrobro on March 31, 2016, 03:14:50 pm
Something else I think ive noticed is that some of Akka's dreams have meticulous details specially the ones dealing with the location and map to Ishual. Those dream maybe the ones sent from Kellhus or just Bakker setting more or a scene to the dreams.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on March 31, 2016, 03:51:07 pm
loads of folk are heeding "a voice from nowhere"

Kellhus has been taking instruction from an unknown voice since the end of TWP. Little Kel has a voice talking to him. The whole Mandate and Sawyal Compact spend each night getting history lessons , Akka get's different dreams it seems but still their providence is unknown.

The mother superior of Yatwer is talking to someone getting red eyes. Fanyal has "been chosen" etc.

In fact the only human "power" in the series we don't know about getting instruction from elsewhere is Meppa, he is in fact sealed from "heeding his own voice" as his memories are away. So he seems death to all these "outside info dumps".



Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 31, 2016, 04:21:49 pm
Something else I think ive noticed is that some of Akka's dreams have meticulous details specially the ones dealing with the location and map to Ishual. Those dream maybe the ones sent from Kellhus or just Bakker setting more or a scene to the dreams.

Well, I have always been of the opinion that the meticulous detail is the result of Akka experiencing the mundane details of Seswatha's life. That's why its always been hard for me to think Kellhus has anything to do with the dreams.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on April 01, 2016, 12:44:55 pm
So, does anyone else think that something was special about Mimara's chorae? When she seen it as truly a Tear of God, she wanted to see the Captains to see if his was the same. I did too. But, I believe its more todo with Mimara herself. Even Akka said, "She is what happened.", in Cil-Aujus. Does anyone have any ideas about what exactly makes Mimara so special, other than the JE. I feel that she is probably the most important character left, sans Kellhus.

ETA: H, another thing that makes me believe Kellhus cares about the future of humanity, is his obsession with having children.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 01, 2016, 12:56:06 pm
ETA: H, another thing that makes me believe Kellhus cares about the future of humanity, is his obsession with having children.

Yeah, he seemed to be intent on it.  Yet, now that the kids are there, he shows no real attachment that we can discern.  Especially not for Intrilatas, or even the twins.

I mean, I buy Kellhus has having vestigial passions and feelings.  I don't buy that he is blinded or even really guided by them though.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on April 01, 2016, 02:27:36 pm
Well all the children play a major part do they not?

Little Kel gets Esme to be paranoid about Uncle Holy, Theli suggests (i believe when esme is having her "morning sun" in WLW) Inri reads his face. Inri attempts to kill him, which causes Maithanet to take over.


Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: profgrape on April 01, 2016, 11:25:38 pm
So, does anyone else think that something was special about Mimara's chorae? When she seen it as truly a Tear of God, she wanted to see the Captains to see if his was the same. I did too. But, I believe its more todo with Mimara herself. Even Akka said, "She is what happened.", in Cil-Aujus. Does anyone have any ideas about what exactly makes Mimara so special, other than the JE. I feel that she is probably the most important character left, sans Kellhus.

I'm not sure it was special, per-se.  More that seeing it with the Judging Eye transformed it into something else -- another example of  "a lie made truth."  Riffing along a common theme, Men believe that Chorae are "Tears of God".  And thus it somehow became that thing when she looked at it?
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 15 & 16 [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on April 02, 2016, 01:09:40 pm
All Chorae have different "flavours". Akka thinks on it as he is threatened by them.

That makes me think something the same but different goes into making each one? A soul perhaps, maybe that's why outlawed. An unborn soul maybe. The timeline could support it as there is some time between the loss at pir pahal and the womb plague.