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Messages - Somnambulist

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766
General Earwa / Re: 144,000
« on: August 28, 2013, 11:04:21 pm »
Quote from: Meyna on August 28, 2013, 05:46:14 pm
"And they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. For it is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless."

-Revelation 14:3–5 (ESV)

A nice reference to the number 144,000 and the concept of redemption/damnation in our earthly holy prophesies. Though I don't know why Bakker would integrate this into his story, I can't imagine this reference was lost on him.

Thanks for the quote, Meyna.  Reading this passage makes it sound like the 144,000 could have been the seed idea for the Few, and how they sing their song, as well as have prohibitions against marriage (should be virgins), a relatively small number of them vs. worldwide population, etc.  But the Few are obviously flawed (visit prostitutes, etc.), and have the mark, except for the Cishaurim.  I wonder how Cishaurim are raised?  Is it just the blindness that leaves them with no Mark, or are they strictly monitored to maintain their 'purity' as well?  Interesting.

767
General Earwa / 144,000
« on: August 28, 2013, 04:55:11 pm »
So, I'm not sure if this has been brought up before.  If it has, please just disregard.  Otherwise, I have some speculations/gripes about this magical number.

1)  This is a special/known number to Earwans:
   a) Mentioned by Akka to Mimara in one of their discussions
   b) In an excerpt of a chapter heading by some author in Earwan history (in WLW, don't remember specific chapter)

2)  Also has meaning to the Inchoroi, as revealed by Wutteat (sp?), in that they reduced the populations of many worlds to this magical quantity

So, are we to believe two separately-evolved species hailing from different planets both hold this number to be holy, some like universal truth?  Or is it that the inchoroi brought the number with them and it became, over time, known for one reason or another to human civilizations?  Seems it could go either way, but I'm interested in what everyone else's opinions might be.

The number has real-world significance to some religions, popularly indicating the number of saved souls already in or going to heaven (to basely summarize).  I find it interesting that Bakker (no surprise at all) turned this concept on it's head as well and suggests that heaven (salvation) is the absence of living in god's presence (damnation).  In that respect, with Earwan metaphysics in mind, the inchoroi have it right if everyone is damned no matter what anyway.  On the other hand, if they succeed, you're stuck on a planet with no divine intervention, inhabited by all-powerful rape-demons and their cronies.  Damned anyway... again.  Looks like Earwans got a rough deal either way you look at it.

Anyway, my last nit is this.  Who is the poor bastard census taker, traveling the world, tallying the 144,000??  Does it have to be exactly this number or just under this number?  If it's exactly 144,000, the Inchoroi need a better way to keep track.  Maybe a Dunyain could do the trick...

768
General Earwa / Re: My spoil it all prediction for what the overall setting is
« on: August 28, 2013, 02:12:10 am »
Quote from: Francis Buck on August 27, 2013, 10:20:35 pm
This also brings up another question. If we assume that the gods did indeed "mingle with men", in the way Angeshrael's story describes, why aren't there any stories of them doing the same with the Nonmen? By the time Husyelt was having his little camp-fire conversation with Angeshrael, the Nonman were already fighting the Inchoroi, correct? This ties back into the higher concept of what the relationship between the Nonmen and the gods is. Did the gods make the World? I personally think they did, in a Demiurgic sense. But then where do the Nonmen fit in?

I've been re-reading WLW, and there was a conversation between Kellhus and the Nonman envoy.  The Nonman expressed that they didn't worship the gods, but the spaces in between the gods, and that was the reason they were damned.  So, either the nonmen rejected the gods at some point in their history, or they were not created by the gods (who eventually gained ascendancy and provenance over the world), and thus were damned (either way).  Still doesn't explain their provenance, but it's another piece to the puzzle, I think.

769
General Earwa / Re: My spoil it all prediction for what the overall setting is
« on: August 27, 2013, 09:17:00 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire on August 27, 2013, 07:20:04 pm
Thanks for that explanation Somnambulist. First of all, I just learned that your name is actually something because google didnt underline it in red. Cool :P

There is meaning in everything  ;)

Quote from: Wilshire on August 27, 2013, 07:20:04 pm
One tiny little thing that i might question though. Why would the 5 tribes represent dominant groups (its possible I am misinterpreting what you meant)? The 5 separate tribes could have just been small subsets of their dominant ethical groups.  Or, they could all be minor players in whatever world scheme was happening, and they all were looking for a way out. A common enemy and all that.

Yours is definitely a valid point.  That could absolutely be one scenario.  I have a tendency towards the over-dramatic, though, so my assumption was that mass immigrations of various peoples were displaced for some reason or another.  I have this image of Exodus in my head, but on an enormous scale.  Purely my own invention.  I think part of it is also rooted in the sheer numbers (I believe) of humans needed to actually 'break the gates' and put to the torch nonman mansions, armies, etc.  I think it would have taken multitudes of men to do that, even if half the nonmen welcomed the end.  Hence large, dominant tribes.

Quote from: Wilshire on August 27, 2013, 07:20:04 pm
Or this scenario (might help answer your question about "Yeah, lets do that"):
Say, each of the 5 groups all consisted of extremest (within their own populations) who had a a tiny overlapping of belief. Like if an Inchoroi flew over the mountains, introduced some wacky religion to each of the separate tribes, and the ones that became followers of this new 'religion' eventually found themselves all wanting the same thing (in this case, to pass through the mountains). After they crossed the mountain the groups were too dissimilar to stay as a cohesive unit, and splintered back into their old tribal ways.
I think that sounds semi reasonable

Sounds reasonable, as well.

770
General Earwa / Re: My spoil it all prediction for what the overall setting is
« on: August 27, 2013, 06:55:25 pm »
While I'm not an anthropologist by any stretch of the imagination, I do have a broad (one could almost say 'shallow') understanding/interest in the dispersions of peoples and the subsequent formation of tribes and then into civilizations.  It's a hobby.  I'm a nerd.  The existence of five distinct tribes is not at all out of the question.  Earth-centric tribes exist in abundance, and often a lot closer to each other than you might think.  Some European 'tribes' and/or ethnicities, however you choose to view them, are Gaels, Angles, Jutes, Normans, Thracians, Macedonians, Slavs, Finns, Andalusians, Danes, to name a fraction of them.  You could argue they are all part of the Caucasian group (or Norsirai, in terms of this discussion).  Then you have Middle-eastern cultures, which are again divided into regional nationalities such as Hebrew, Arabic, Turkic, Palestinian, etc.  Many of these share a common heritage (i.e., Semitic or 'Ketyai'), but some don't or are only partially genetically related.  The list goes on with the various sub-cultures in Asian, Indian, Oriental and African cultures, to a staggering degree, not to mention the multitude of New World tribes in the Americas.

In reference to the tribes of Earwa, then, five tribes is practically nothing on a world-scale.  I see no reason why there couldn't be five tribes.  The reason there were 'only' five tribes is more problematic.  Cross-culture mixing happened all the time, either where one tribe was subsumed by another, or simply by trade (think the Silk Road from China to Europe).  There must be some sort of prohibition, on a broad scale, to discourage interbreeding.  That's not surprising, either, though.  Many religions prohibit or at least frown upon cross-culturization (is that even a word?).  The thing that occurs to me as most troubling is why five disparate tribes, obviously having evolved along similar lines as earth tribes, came together under a leader from one tribe alone, in one specific geographic location.  Why would five dominant groups of ethnically different backgrounds (I'll use real-world analogies here) congregate and cooperate on a mass scale?  African, Semite, Caucasian, Scythian and Chinese (assumedly) tribes all banded together under one man and said "Yeah, let's do that."  The reason for that is the real question in my mind.

If I've made any gross errors in here, it was not my intent to offend anyone.  As I said, I'm not an expert.  Simply an amateur with no formal training in anthropology, but an intense interest in this subject.  If anyone can clarify or debunk any of the crap I just spouted, please do!

771
General Earwa / Re: Who'll live through TUC?
« on: August 26, 2013, 05:08:27 pm »
I think I'm about to do a 180....  Yep, there I go.  While I like the idea that the WLW is, at least in part, Cnaiur or holds a remnant of Cnaiur's soul, when I think about the greater narrative, I'm beginning to doubt my own recipe.  While I loved the character, would we really see Cnaiur be the end of both Moenghus (the Elder) and his son Kellhus (if that's how it were to go)?  I get that the overall narrative is cyclical, but wouldn't that be too... trite?  I believe there are enough characters (known and unknown at this time) without having to resort to a previous one, however awesome he was.

I hadn't considered Psatma lending her 'experience/age' to the WLW in exchange for some of his youth.  It makes sense in a way that seems obvious once pointed out, but it just didn't occur to me before.  Go figure.  One of the many reasons I can't stop coming back to this forum is the constant and sometimes revelatory insights all you good people regularly share with one another.  I think I've revised my own story biases about a hundred times already, and expect to do so a hundred more before the end of it (and probably many times thereafter, as well).  Currently, I don't know what to believe anymore, which equals awesome in my book.  And frustrating.  Oh, and awesome.

772
General Earwa / Re: Who'll live through TUC?
« on: August 25, 2013, 01:49:36 pm »
Quote from: Madness on August 24, 2013, 03:56:46 am
Quote from: Somnambulist on August 23, 2013, 07:39:39 pm
My personal opinion of the WLW's identity is Cnaiur.  Like you, it's been a long time since I read TJE, but I think I remember something about the vessel having Scylvendi blood, and I guess my brain latched onto the idea that it must be him.  I like to imagine Yatwer holding a meeting in the Outside, asking for volunteer souls to go back to be the WLW and kill Kellhus.  Cnaiur jumps up with his hand raised "Ooh, ooh, me, me!  I'll do it!"  Ha!

But, seriously, I think it's Cnaiur.

The Warrior was young before he gained his 'attributes' from the Mother-Supreme.

Yes, the vessel's body was young.  Psatma/Yatwer shunted another, older soul into it, giving the youth calloused hands, neck-breaking strength, etc.  My postulation was that the older soul is Cnaiur.  The vessel did have Scylvendi blood, however diluted, and to me that was an odd detail to put in, describing the vessel's heritage like that.  Seemed to me it was to give a Scylvendi soul an anchor of sorts to inhabit in a new body.  Additionally, with Yatwer going to war, she may have chosen one of her brother's most violent adherents to inhabit the vessel, one that knew Kellhus in life, so would be better equipped to defeat him.  Cnaiur (or his soul, rather) fits the bill imho.

773
General Earwa / Re: Who'll live through TUC?
« on: August 23, 2013, 07:39:39 pm »
Quote from: Kellais on August 23, 2013, 04:55:16 pm
Btw (as i said, the reading of the books is some time ago, so please be gentle ;) ), do we know who the WLW is? I think not. I always thought it'd be ironic if Sorweel is the WLW. Maybe he even kills Kellhus (or at least it seems that way).

My personal opinion of the WLW's identity is Cnaiur.  Like you, it's been a long time since I read TJE, but I think I remember something about the vessel having Scylvendi blood, and I guess my brain latched onto the idea that it must be him.  I like to imagine Yatwer holding a meeting in the Outside, asking for volunteer souls to go back to be the WLW and kill Kellhus.  Cnaiur jumps up with his hand raised "Ooh, ooh, me, me!  I'll do it!"  Ha!

But, seriously, I think it's Cnaiur.

774
General Earwa / Re: At this rate, I'll be 40 and he'll be dead
« on: August 15, 2013, 07:32:10 pm »
No worries, mate.  It's all in jest.   :)  But I really don't want to wait that long...  I hope you're wrong, but I fear you're right.  ugh

775
General Earwa / Re: At this rate, I'll be 40 and he'll be dead
« on: August 15, 2013, 05:54:45 pm »
Shit, thanks for throwing mortality into the mix.  I'm nearly as old as Bakker.  I don't know if I have the stamina to wait another 20 years.

Well, maybe I do, but it would be nice NOT to have to wait that long.  I'll need those years just to re-read and absorb half the stuff that's in his books.  I'm runnin' out o' time!

776
The Judging Eye / Re: prologue
« on: August 15, 2013, 05:02:15 am »
My guess is that it's Kayutas.  He would be able to fulfill all the roles necessary for the encounter.  His voice "possessed the gravel of an old officer's bawl" and "boomed through the gorge easily audible over the white roar of water."  A dunyain (or half-dunyain, in this instance) would have complete control over the pitch of his own voice, and Kayutas is the general of the Kidruhil, used to barking orders.  And he thinks "Just like animals" when all the scalpers turn to look at him.  A typically arrogant point of view for the eldest son of Kellhus, imho.  When addressing Kosoter, he knows the proper etiquette in addressing him as a Veteran.  He understood Ainoni, and I believe Kayutas has a particular facility with languages.  And who else would Kosoter deign to listen to unless it was the very son of Kellhus, his Holy Aspect Emperor who gave him the title Ironsoul personally?

777
The Judging Eye / Re: Reread - Questions and discussion
« on: August 15, 2013, 04:34:25 am »
Quote from: Wilshire on August 14, 2013, 07:09:53 pm
Quote from: Kellais on August 14, 2013, 04:57:08 pm

Oh and Madness, care to elaborate on that title remark? Is that a thing on this forum?  ;)
The offer on the last forum was that you could choose a custom title if you had 50+ posts ( think). I'd say about 1/2 the people that got there picked something, the rest didn't bother.
Its just an added descriptor displayed under your name when you post. I thought it was cool idea.

That's cool!  Cheers, Madness.  Is there an approved list of titles?  Do I get to choose my own?  This is the kind of stuff I AGONIZE over!  lol

778
The Judging Eye / Re: Reread - Questions and discussion
« on: August 14, 2013, 03:03:35 am »
I think that might be where I was going with that, or thereabouts.  My apologies, the thought came to me while at work, so I wasn't sure I presented the theory very well.  Cheers, Wilshire. :)

779
The Judging Eye / Re: Reread - Questions and discussion
« on: August 13, 2013, 08:53:54 pm »
Quote from: Kellais on August 13, 2013, 04:20:13 pm
- Mimara's judging eye...first appearance when she looks at Akka during their first long talk at the fire before his tower. Now, i was wondering (and maybe there already is a thread somewhere where you discussed that indepth, but i didn't see a thread-title so here it is (again?) ) ... do you think this really is something we, as readers, have to take at face value? In other words : she really has a judging eye...so Akka is really damned etc etc . What else could it be? After her musings on how Akka and herself have suffered a lot in this life, and Akka more or less confessing that he is most probably mad...what if Mimara is just...well, mad? Maybe she hallucinates that stuff. Any theories and ideas on this? It just got me thinking...maybe i'm paranoid but i can't belief that it is what is says on the tin, so to speak  ;) Or is that precisely what Scott wants us to think and therefor this is exactly how it is... ?! Now you see where this is going right...you could start thinking in circles like that and do that ad infinitum and ad absurdum ... so, let me have it.

This is something I've been thinking about lately, as well.  I'm starting to lean in the direction that the possessors of the Judging Eye are, in fact, casting judgment and not just seeing judgment.  There's a passage in WLW (in the infamous Library dream by Achamian) wherein the statement is made that reality is based on the principle of 'watcher and watched,' or something to that effect.  To me, in regards to Earwa, that means reality is subjective to the watcher, and their own preconceptions of what reality is.  Mimara grew up in the Three Seas where sorcerers are damned, and she was sold to a brothel where men abused her.  What could be worse in her mind than a male sorcerer?  Thus, she sees Achamian as this blasted, damned wreck when the eye opens, 'confirming' her own bias.  This could go a ways to explaining the encounter with the wight in Cil-Aujas when she proclaims that she guards the gates (not sure how just yet, but it could be something).  Like she's some kind of moral compass for the world.

Another thought occurs to me as I'm writing this.  RSB uses a lot of religious metaphors from our own world to flesh out his (obviously).  What if this is another one?  The meek shall inherit the earth.  Mimara has been so wronged in her life that she now possesses the ultimate tool of judgement, and reality is as she sees it, damning all those who have wronged her.

And then there's the actual name of the judgement, the Judging Eye.  Who is judging if not the possessor?  It could be the One God, judging through the possessor of the Eye, but now I'm just spinning myself into circles, like you said.   :o

780
General Earwa / Re: My spoil it all prediction for what the overall setting is
« on: August 09, 2013, 03:28:53 am »
Touché

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