The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: Madness on May 04, 2016, 08:33:13 pm
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Have at it, people 8).
Pat's TGO Review (http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.ca/2016/05/the-great-ordeal.html) - POV & Character Spoilers
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Have at it, people 8).
What he means is open spoilers for the current discussion happening regarding TGO and the associated press releases, spoilers from Pat, future releases of excerpts, and discussion or questions related to the above brought up on other forums/media. No spoilers in topic titles.
Those few who have an ARC or who will otherwise be able to read TGO before the July release: until the official release, please use spoiler tags.
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Those who have ARC's and such, take a page from Madness's book, SILENCE IS GOLDEN!!!!. Revel in your Unholiness all you want, just if you spoil me, I WILL MURDER THE WORLD TO FIND YOU!!!!!!!
There, you have been warned. These mistakes WILL beg the knife, not the cloth. Pat has went a little to far over at Westeros for my liking. I will add zero smiley faces to this.
I am the Breaker of Spoilers!!!!!!!
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Pat's Review is up. (http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.ca/2016/05/the-great-ordeal.html)
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A Kellhus POV, eh? Sounds cool
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Kellhus POV??! but won't that shoot down the theory of Kellhus being one of the Consult ?! Or will we get it very briefly and will not delve into his mind?!
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Also interesting:
The Ishuäl storyline features the POVs of Achamian, Mimara, and another character which must remain anonymous for now.
Maybe a Dunyain who survived the attack? A Dunyain woman, perhaps?
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Or Leweth.
Sent from my GT-S7582 using Tapatalk
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I am he, the lying liar who lies 8).
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You're saying it's Moë?
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Lmao - you will not have impressions from my fractured mind any longer. I just like that sentence.
A Kellhus POV, eh? Sounds cool
I previously said there was no such thing.
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It'll be interesting to see what it is as it would mean it was something Bakker saw as a necessary addition to what Madness read.
I just can't believe that Madness would deceive us!
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After pondering this a bit, the other character might be Mekeritrig. Consider:
1. He was wandering around the Demua mountains before, why not now?
2. The Shae "where is the Heron Spear" question in the dream connects to Mekeritrig being the one who stole it from the Nonmen in the first place and the one who tortures Seswatha to find the location.
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You're saying it's Moë?
Most likely Moenghus. He's the All-Thing.
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Female Dunyain would be my guess, Kellhus's Daughter.
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Female Dunyain would be my guess, Kellhus's Daughter.
Or Mother...... My money is on Mek with a connection to Seswatha.
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Mek's POV would be a slog to read if the other Non-man POV is any measure.
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Mek's POV would be a slog to read if the other Non-man POV is any measure.
Could be that The Four Revelations was a sort of exercise to establish the proper voice for an Erractic POV.
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More speculation fun...
The relationship between Kellhus and Proyas will take an unexpected turn, one that can have important repercussions down the line.
We've discussed at length how their interactions in WLW suggest that Kellhus is grooming Proyas to take over the Great Ordeal at some point. But what form could this take?
My Nerdendel:
Kellhus will engineer further discontent among the Ordeal's leadership. The consequences arising from the Apophagia (aside: coolest term ever) will call into question Kellhus' infallibility.
The seeds that Kellhus has planted regarding his origins will fester within Proyas, leading to a deepening crisis of faith. It might even be that Kellhus intimates to Proyas that the whole Ordeal is a sham, portraying motives consistent with those Kellhus foresaw of Moenghus. Either way, there will be a pivotal moment when Proyas defies Kellhus, perhaps even publicly. Things will culminate with Kellhus abandoning the army, leaving Proyas to lead the Great Ordeal to a spectacular victory at Dagliash.
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I like that profgrape. And that could very well be the case. Akka, Proyas and Kellhus are all going to come together at some point. I feel it in my bones. Akka's repudiation in TTT is too poignant of a moment in these books for there not to be a call back to that moment. Remember, Proyas and his reaction are duly noted in that scene.
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I like that profgrape. And that could very well be the case. Akka, Proyas and Kellhus are all going to come together at some point. I feel it in my bones. Akka's repudiation in TTT is too poignant of a moment in these books for there not to be a call back to that moment. Remember, Proyas and his reaction are duly noted in that scene.
That last scene in TTT is one of my favorites. If there is no recall of that moment before the series ends, I'll be extremely disappointed.
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The biggest travesty with TGO is that it is only half of TUC. In Pat's review he remarks that if it's not split it is the crowning achievement of Bakker's work. And, though I haven't read it (obviously) I'm sure this is the case. All of us who are in love with this series know that TUC will and it has to be, an epic finale. And, to me, that's the saddest part of only get half of the Unholy.
I've been in arguements at Westeros, begged people to read this series, all because I believe we are witnessing something transcendent. The love/hate relationship these books cause in so many, will one day, be what makes them a true work of art. I know I'm biased, but 30 years from now i believe TSA will be a lot bigger than it is now. And, not having the doorstoppper TUC as the final book of TAE will be a regret of the idiots at Overlook.
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Meh... if fans were never aware of the split, cognitive closure would have invalidated these - very strange, to me - criticisms of TGO.
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How can you say that when you haven’t read it? Yes, you’ve read TUC but you don’t know where the book was split. Or did you get an ARC too?
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I'd have to find the old interviews and quote them - as I've cited this a number of times over the past two years - but TJE and WLW were both arbitrary
splits cutoffs.
Also, because it's not as if the Unmentionable was boring for the first half or something ridiculous like that. I've said the exact opposite since day one. Everything is a spoiler. Every chapter is more intense/awesome, etc, than basically anything else Bakker's written.
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Meh... if fans were never aware of the split, cognitive closure would have invalidated these - very strange, to me - criticisms of TGO.
Well, this isn't a criticism on my behalf, I've not read it. I guess the split occurred because in finishing TUC the storygrew a bit. But, why would that constitute a split for any other reason than monetary? All I'm saying, is that Bakker intended TUC to be the third and final installment and it would've have been a 900 page behemouth, "Of revelation, stacked upon revelation.". A book that would be that book everyone would point to as Bakker's crowning achievement and set him apart. I think that's more important for Bakker, than it is for us, his fans. I'll buy 60 more books written in this world, if that's what it takes to tell his story. Sure, I'm sure TGO will have me walking around with a banana in my pocket for a few weeks, no doubt. I love everything he writes, pertaining to TSA. I just think it would've been better for his career, is all.
ETA: IMHO, TJE and WLW have felt like the set up books to a great 3rd installment. TTT is the best book of TSA, and isn't even 500 pages. I wholeheartedly agree with Pat, that if it wasn't split it would've been a book on par with GRRRM's A Storm of Swords, in terms of what it did for his career. (i believe TSA is a better story and has better world-building then ASOIAF. Not even close) Would've been great for Bakker, again that's where my concern lies in this.
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Have people forgotten that the whole entire series was supposed to be 3 books. PoN, AE, TSTSNBN.
It was 'split' 3 times before AE even started. A split of TUC, if thats what it was, was splitting AE from 3 to 4. That not even worth noticing.
TSTSNBN will probably be 3 if it ever comes out.
So a Trilogy was split into a 10 book set. If TUC wasn't split, it would be 9 books. I really don't get all the complaints or concerns. What's obvious is that the scope, depth, and detail have changed over time. What was conceived as 3 books has grown into much more. I would have thought people would be celebrating.
Also, with the 1 year gap between TGO and TUC, it seems likely that if it wasn't split, we'd be waiting for at least one more (since as far as we know, TUC hasnt been proofed, etc.).
How can you say that when you haven’t read it? Yes, you’ve read TUC but you don’t know where the book was split. Or did you get an ARC too?
How can you say that when you havent read it? I assume you havent read TUC, so you can't know if it was a good split or not. What would be even more impressive would be if you could tell from reading an ARC that there was a clear demarcation of a split.
Again, so far each book has been split 3+ times. It hasn't been a problem so far, so why now?
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Well, I think you and Madness are missing the main crux of my argument. I could care less about ME getting the entire story at once. I'm saying that it would have been better for Bakker as an author. As Madness can attest, the manuscript he read as TUC as a whole, was his best work yet. And, I think it would have been good for him to have kept it whole. That's all I'm saying. Not a complaint that I am not getting to read it all at once. I can wait.
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As Madness can attest, the manuscript he read as TUC as a whole, was his best work yet.
Might want to double check. Pretty sure he refers to it at the Unmentionable always. Might be he only read half of TGO and wanted to split it into quarters :P no one really knows.
Its a story. As long as it gets told, its all good.
Those waiting to read TSA until its all published, and people who come to the series after its all finished, might as well be reading a 2500 page omnibus TSA with no splits. Where the bindings separate the words won't matter when you can just pick up the next one and continue on.
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How can you say that when you havent read it? I assume you havent read TUC, so you can't know if it was a good split or not.
How can you say that when you haven’t read it? I assume that you haven’t read TUC, so you can’t know if it was a good split or not.
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I'll just start off with apologies to Aural, MSJ, etc, because I'm writing and there's a lot going on in the house (as I never seem to get the house alone on my day's off) and while that biases my cognition - ironically, as per Bakker's comments below about reviewers - so does this emerging consensual commentary regarding "the split" in TGO/TUC; something that has clearly been perpetuated by myself and Bakker, possibly doing some disservice to this release.
This then isn't necessarily a direct response to your posts in this thread :).
I'd have to find the old interviews and quote them - as I've cited this a number of times over the past two years - but TJE and WLW were both arbitrary splits cutoffs.
Good - I paraphrased wrong but I found the quote and Bakker does a much better job of addressing this strange and interesting bias emerging online towards "the split" than I can.
Pat's Fantasy Hotlist Interview, Jan 2009 (http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.ca/2009/01/new-r-scott-bakker-interview.html):
- THE JUDGING EYE seems to be a notably less standalone work than even the individual novels in the Prince of Nothing, which whilst part of a greater tapestry did seem to have more resolution to each book. Was this a deliberate decision or more of a natural evolution given the story requirements for the sequel series?
When you try to tell a story as big as The Second Apocalypse, you have to go with what local resolutions you can get. This is even more complicated when your story slowly weaves together three narrative lines, as is the case with The Aspect-Emperor. What gives The Darkness that Comes Before a greater sense of closure, I think, is that it concludes with the various narrative lines coming together in the Holy War. Since I have no interest in manufacturing closure simply for the sake of closure, I had to settle for the one point where the development of the three threads of The Judging Eye lined up dramatically...
Then snip.
Meh... if fans were never aware of the split, cognitive closure would have invalidated these - very strange, to me - criticisms of TGO.
Well, this isn't a criticism on my behalf, I've not read it. I guess the split occurred because in finishing TUC the storygrew a bit. But, why would that constitute a split for any other reason than monetary? All I'm saying, is that Bakker intended TUC to be the third and final installment and it would've have been a 900 page behemouth, "Of revelation, stacked upon revelation.". A book that would be that book everyone would point to as Bakker's crowning achievement and set him apart. I think that's more important for Bakker, than it is for us, his fans. I'll buy 60 more books written in this world, if that's what it takes to tell his story. Sure, I'm sure TGO will have me walking around with a banana in my pocket for a few weeks, no doubt. I love everything he writes, pertaining to TSA. I just think it would've been better for his career, is all.
ETA: IMHO, TJE and WLW have felt like the set up books to a great 3rd installment. TTT is the best book of TSA, and isn't even 500 pages. I wholeheartedly agree with Pat, that if it wasn't split it would've been a book on par with GRRRM's A Storm of Swords, in terms of what it did for his career. (i believe TSA is a better story and has better world-building then ASOIAF. Not even close) Would've been great for Bakker, again that's where my concern lies in this.
First bold: Those are just Pat's impressions being recycled. Who knows what Bakker's intentions were? If we're to predict an author's "crowning achievement," we'll need better tools than the opinions of one reviewer (whom I happen to respect) before the book is released to the public.
Another contextual bit from that interview:
- Are you satisfied with the way THE JUDGING EYE has been received thus far?
Gauging critical reactions to your work is a tricky thing, primarily because we all–me and you included–regularly confabulate reasons when trying to explain our judgments. It’s a terrifying fact, actually, but the research suggests that we should be exceedingly sceptical of the rationalizations we use to explain our likes and dislikes. We seem to just make things up. So when a reviewer tries to explain why this or that worked or didn’t work for them, chances are they’re just confabulating. (This doesn’t mean that reviewers should give up rationalizing their judgments, only that they should be sceptical of them. Sometimes you hate a book simply because your dog took a dump on the carpet).
So as it stands I’m obviously pleased that so many online reviewers are so enthusiastic about the book, and my own cognitive vanity makes me want to say these are most intelligent and good-looking reviewers to have ever walked a planet so benighted as Earth, but I always remind myself that it’s the readers I’m writing for, and that so long as the series continues its slow growth I’m doing something right.
Second bold: All the fans - those participating in these threads (people who I know to be mostly reasonable individuals), those reading our words anonymously, those participating across a handful of different mediums but sharing an interest in Bakker's writing, and those reading their words anonymously, we determine the success of Bakker's career. What we do with that social leverage is up to us.
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+1.
Well, I think you and Madness are missing the main crux of my argument. I could care less about ME getting the entire story at once. I'm saying that it would have been better for Bakker as an author. As Madness can attest, the manuscript he read as TUC as a whole, was his best work yet. And, I think it would have been good for him to have kept it whole. That's all I'm saying. Not a complaint that I am not getting to read it all at once. I can wait.
We don't know what would have been better for Bakker as an author. We live this life, this leading edge of circumstance, of life unlived.
I think citing me or Bakker in this matter - especially as evidence that "the split" is a bad thing for Bakker - is probably not wise. You have evidence of one instance above regarding a Kellhus POV where I chose to lie to the fandom for what thought was the good of the fandom - who is to say which of my truths are lies and lies are truths? Me? I'm clearly an unreliable source.
As for Bakker, he's sometimes thoughtless with his own commentary and is mostly unavailable for comment or clarification (though, questions regarding intent in this context are more likely to find answers in the Author Q&A, I'll bet).
Otherwise, Overlook then Orbit clearly have ultimate veto over Bakker. Fan frustrations regarding perceived narrative damage done by a "split" in an unreleased manuscript might find better resolution by putting these questions to the publishers over the author... or me, which I find wildly absurd and thus hilarious. Possibilities for the future abound: rerelease, omnibus editions, etc, etc.
But not if there is no demand...
How can you say that when you havent read it? I assume you havent read TUC, so you can't know if it was a good split or not.
How can you say that when you haven’t read it? I assume that you haven’t read TUC, so you can’t know if it was a good split or not.
The Moderator-Extraordinaire Curethan in the back of my head suggests that I should probably just delete this post but I'm curious. How is this a cause for dissonance, much less frustration? Why does thinking this particular book has been "split" make a difference for you, when Bakker's said many times that TAE is a story itself written as part of an overarching story, as Wilshire detailed above?
Just thoughts.
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You say “if fans were never aware of the split”... but we are aware of it. The difference - for me at least - between this and previous installments is that when Bakker finished TJE he was no where near finishing TWLW, etc. The TUC, however, was entirely written as one book. It was completed and ready to be published. Bakker spent so much time speaking about it as the one book that will finally answer the burning questions. And then it was decided that the book be split into two for whatever reason. This hasn’t happened before.
As for the last post. Well, Wilshire randomly repeated a question I asked so I thought we were playing a game... sorry.
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I think Wilshire was asking you a legitimate question. If we're touchy about all this, I apologize again.
The TUC, however, was entirely written as one book. It was completed and ready to be published. Bakker spent so much time speaking about it as the one book that will finally answer the burning questions. And then it was decided that the book be split into two for whatever reason. This hasn’t happened before.
Except that you don't know most of that because Bakker's been majorly unclear with his one-off commentary regarding "the split" and then unresponsive to fans regarding further clarification... things that can be addressed during his Reddit AMA or, hopefully, spontaneously, in the Author Q&A subforum?
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As for the last post. Well, Wilshire randomly repeated a question I asked so I thought we were playing a game... sorry.
My unclear point is that the question, or evidence raised, is that TUC was split. As Madness brought up, we don't know the nature of the split. We have a lot of people assuming things, and thats it.
We know that the book formerly known at TUC is being published as TGO and TUC. Is that a 'split'? I don't know. As I said, that's just a further modification of the book formerly know as TAE.
Also, who says TUC is finished? AFAIK there are no final manuscript prints that anyone has read, there are now galley prints, no ARCs. I doubt Overlook has seen a complete final draft.
What defines a book as 'finished'? Technically the TGO ARCs are not even finished books. Things can still change.
Something as fluid as a pre-manuscript draft of TUC probably shouldn't be considered finished.
I'm not aware of ever seeing publishing timelines of final-drafts for any of these books. If you have some evidence that the WLW manuscript/final draft/galley/ARC was more or less finished compared to where TUC is right now, I'd love to see it.
By all accounts, TWP was written, start to finish, in 1 year from TDTCB. Does that mean it was finished when TDTCB was out? Probably not. There have been bits and pieces of this story floating around Bakker headspace for decades. Was the story finished before he wrote it? I'd argue that it was. Since the major story was laid out from the start, any arbitrary 'splits' where the binding of one book ends and the binding of the next book starts are... well arbitrary.
Its a story. Unless Overlook is dumping major plot points so that they can fit it into some page-count or whatever, then I don't see how it matters.
Go ahead and rebind PON into an omnibus, and AE too. But just because you, or I, or Pat, or Overlook, would like to see less covers or bigger books, doesn't mean that its more or less correct.
At least to me, the story being finished is the majorly important part. 3 books, or 9, or 10, if all the pieces are there in the end it just doesn't bother me.
Now, if Bakker comes back some day and says "Gee, Overlook really boned me. Ruined my story. Cut out important parts, made me put in other pieces that weren't important" , etc. etc., then I'll be irked.
Otherwise, passing judgement, getting upset about a possible perceived future, just doesn't seem worth the effort. I worry that if 'the internet' spends its time complaining about how 'the story is ruined', then no one will read it, no books will be sold, and then a future where TUC and TSTSNBN even exists to be read will cease to exist. Then I'll be upset, because the story wasn't told.
So, maybe, withholding judgment until we can see the story proper, might be a better path. Which is why, for my part, I rail against the negativity. Sorry if that's upsetting to anyone.
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Well, Wilshire you're definitely a disciple of Bakker, because you love arguing Semantics, lol. Look, I do see your point. I understand things can change. That nothing that Bakker has handed in before is final. But, he stated on his blog, that he handed in the finished manuscript for TUC. That there might be a split due to page count. That nothing about the release was said until his contract was restructured, because it went from 3 books to 4. You guys provided links to all these comments in the TUC thread. Great arguments all around from you and Madness, but you know in your heart that this was a Overlook decision, not Bakker's. That the heart of the story hasn't changed, and won't. Aural and I are not the ones who seem to be getting angry here. I think it a reasonable critic of what would be best for the man's career. It's over with and can't be changed. I'll be happy however I get the story, 4 books or 20, it doesn't matter to me.
ETA: Please do not ignore the bold when quoting me again. It's definitely not about what I want. It was just a thought (RECYCLED THOUGHT) on what I ultimately think would have been best for my favorite author's career.
ETAA: Sorry if you guys think this is negativity on my part. It's not what I intended it to be. I'm extremely happy to be getting what we're getting. Maybe, this will be the best path, I dunno. I just think when the reason we were giving is page count and Overlook is a small publisher aren't good enough.
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Great arguments all around from you and Madness, but you know in your heart that this was a Overlook decision, not Bakker's.
Not true for myself.
Aural and I are not the ones who seem to be getting angry here. I think it a reasonable critic of what would be best for the man's career. It's over with and can't be changed.
I know Wilshire and I aren't angry - I don't think anyone is being accused of anger here. I'm not actually sure why there should be a sense of discord here. Perhaps Wilshire and I are reacting disproportionate to the conversation at hand but it's clearly important to us to be able to read the rest of the story and that others do so as well.
It is perfectly reasonable to critic what would be best for the man's career - but you and Aural are doing so on the basis of incomplete information; things that could be fleshed out by Bakker in the coming months, hopefully.
I'll be happy however I get the story, 4 books or 20, it doesn't matter to me.
ETA: Please do not ignore the bold when quoting me again. It's definitely not about what I want. It was just a thought (RECYCLED THOUGHT) on what I ultimately think would have been best for my favorite author's career.
ETAA: Sorry if you guys think this is negativity on my part. It's not what I intended it to be. I'm extremely happy to be getting what we're getting. Maybe, this will be the best path, I dunno. I just think when the reason we were giving is page count and Overlook is a small publisher aren't good enough.
Otherwise, passing judgement, getting upset about a possible perceived future, just doesn't seem worth the effort. I worry that if 'the internet' spends its time complaining about how 'the story is ruined', then no one will read it, no books will be sold, and then a future where TUC and TSTSNBN even exists to be read will cease to exist. Then I'll be upset, because the story wasn't told.
So, maybe, withholding judgment until we can see the story proper, might be a better path. Which is why, for my part, I rail against the negativity. Sorry if that's upsetting to anyone.
I responded to someone at r/bakker (https://www.reddit.com/r/bakker/comments/4j5c28/pats_fantasy_hotlist_the_great_ordeal_advance/d35v8hz) regarding this earlier today and basically, in classic form, Wilshire says is here in about a third of the words.
Bakker supposedly has a Reddit AMA upcoming and I think it's very likely he's going to jump onto the Author Q&A in the near future (at a time when maybe there aren't so many reviews, excerpts, and interviews already forthcoming). The kinds of questions that you and Aural are asking are the kind that Bakker should be asked before we throw around blame and motive at Bakker, the publishers, and all the schemers in between.
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GdM confirms excerpt is going live "soon." They are on Australia-time. It is already the 16th there 8).
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This from Pat, @Westeros
Guys,
Overlook and Orbit have been sitting on a manuscript whose last rewrite was turned in in December 2013. By the time TGO comes out, that will be about 2 and a half years.
Is this accurate info? I guess I am going on incomplete information. I can't possibly know all the intricate details of the publishing world. I'm just going off of blog posts and such from Bakker, links provided for us here.
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Bakker missed a deadline originally (i think) then turned it in 2013 the end of it.
So it will be about 2 1/2 years from december 21013 till release.
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This from Pat, @Westeros
Guys,
Overlook and Orbit have been sitting on a manuscript whose last rewrite was turned in in December 2013. By the time TGO comes out, that will be about 2 and a half years.
Is this accurate info? I guess I am going on incomplete information. I can't possibly know all the intricate details of the publishing world. I'm just going off of blog posts and such from Bakker, links provided for us here.
Lol - and we're just providing the information because it's all there is, not because it is completely accurate. Bakker is just a person, certainly not a publicist, and things that he says online are remarkably inconsistent and misinterpreted compared to hearing it clarified by the man himself.
I suppose Pat means Dec 2014?
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Hey, this is the only info we have to go off of though, right? Anyhow, I didn't mean to stir the pot, sorry for doing so. My critic wasn't one to put down RSB. I just agreed with Pat that I think it couldve, would've been an excellent novel in its entirety. I'm sure TGO is great on its own and I'm excited for it. It was more of a "what could've been" type of thing. Sorry, don't mean to be a Debbie Downer.
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Hey, this is the only info we have to go off of though, right? Anyhow, I didn't mean to stir the pot, sorry for doing so. My critic wasn't one to put down RSB. I just agreed with Pat that I think it couldve, would've been an excellent novel in its entirety. I'm sure TGO is great on its own and I'm excited for it. It was more of a "what could've been" type of thing. Sorry, don't mean to be a Debbie Downer.
I'll make this conversation make sense in the future, MSJ, if Bakker hasn't clarified before then :).
Also, check your PMs, I need you for this WLW Reread Cast or the Cast series might remain unfinished.
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I suppose Pat means Dec 2014?
Bakker finished the first draft of TUC in Dec 2013... That’s the confusion I guess. He handed the finished manuscript to Overlook in March 2014 according to Wertzone.
http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2014/03/r-scott-bakker-delivers-unholy-consult.html
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I'll make this conversation make sense in the future, MSJ, if Bakker hasn't clarified before then :).
Also, check your PMs, I need you for this WLW Reread Cast or the Cast series might remain unfinished.
Sent you guys a PM. Ahhh, so there is more than meets the eye. Ok, fair enough.
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Adrian of GDM just tweeted it’s almost time to set eyes on the first 10K words of TGO. Almost time... so a few weeks.
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https://grimdarkmagazine.com/blogs/news/104286406-excerpt-from-r-scott-bakkers-the-great-ordeal
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https://grimdarkmagazine.com/blogs/news/104286406-excerpt-from-r-scott-bakkers-the-great-ordeal
First two chapters. Awesome.
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Mind Blown right off the bat chapter 1 opening words. Had to read it like 10 times. Going back in.
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Holy Shit, that was awesome.
Kellhus PoV, PoV from the outside.
The kellhus flesh and heart empire thing needs more thought to work out.
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Madness, that Kellhus PoV wasn’t in the book when you first read it? (it’s hard to miss...) or did you really lie?? :-\
Because if it was added later... I wonder if there is any chance that Bakker did this because of the disappointment some fans expressed at not having a Kellhus PoV.
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I, for one, say Madness is a liar until he satisfactorily says otherwise.
However, much more interesting if it was added later. Like PoN all over again, Bakker saw the readership 'not getting it' and had to sprinkle in some Kellhus POV for clarity.
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I'm a lying liar who lies. More to come :).
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More Kellhus PoV?
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More evidence of my lies.
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More evidence of my lies.
WE CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH! Madness, I find it hilarious that a certain someone said we should all think about your motivations.... Anyhow, I guess you should have spoiled us all and deceived us only if TRUTH was available to do so. 2 years and I think you did well, my friend.
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More evidence of my lies.
Can’t you just admit that he gave you a fake book?
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More evidence of my lies.
Can’t you just admit that he gave you a fake book?
I presume he's a fraud. Back to bothering Bakker ... IF ONLY HE'D ALLOW US TO BOTHER HIM by answering the catcalls from time to time.
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Why lie to us though?
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Why lie to us though?
Well, it seems to me that Kellus having POV would be a spoiler until today. I wouldn't would've wanted to be in his shoes for the past two years or so.
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Why lie to us though?
Because a statement such as "I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of the information requested but, hypothetically, if such data were to exist, the subject matter would be classified, and could not be disclosed." - would likely have not been satisfactory to anyone.
Or, maybe just for funs.
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More evidence of my lies.
WE CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH! Madness, I find it hilarious that a certain someone said we should all think about your motivations.... Anyhow, I guess you should have spoiled us all and deceived us only if TRUTH was available to do so. 2 years and I think you did well, my friend.
Thanks, MSJ. I tried real hard.
More evidence of my lies.
Can’t you just admit that he gave you a fake book?
Umm...? That wouldn't be true. Hell - why not just accuse me of not having read any manuscript at all?
Why lie to us though?
Why lie to us though?
Well, it seems to me that Kellus having POV would be a spoiler until today. I wouldn't would've wanted to be in his shoes for the past two years or so.
To be a tease? To whet fan fervour (though, I'm starting to think that people only read Bakker so that they may better loathe the books)?
When Bakker made the decision to tell the fans to harass me, we'd talked about teasing, not spoiling, and really, at the the time, I think Bakker wanted me to talk about the process, to assure people that he was writing - all the time, at that.
Regarding a Kellhus POV and other questions I did not answer totally honestly over the past two years, ask yourselves: if you'd been in my position, would you have betrayed Bakker's trust? Because for me that was a non-starter. And ultimately, in regards to teasing vs. spoiler, I want you all to live Bakker's words for yourselves.
I dislike the idea of the "Noble Lie." But I did what I could to honour my position as Bakker's friend, student, and fan - I wanted to excite the fandom, not spoil you.
But, you know, I'm just over here, at the leading edge of my time/space crux, doing the best I can.
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Regarding a Kellhus POV and other questions I did not answer totally honestly over the past two years, ask yourselves: if you'd been in my position, would you have betrayed Bakker's trust? Because for me that was a non-starter. And ultimately, in regards to teasing vs. spoiler, I want you all to live Bakker's words for yourselves.
I dislike the idea of the "Noble Lie." But I did what I could to honour my position as Bakker's friend, student, and fan - I wanted to excite the fandom, not spoil you.
I mean you could have avoided the question altogether... like you did with so many others.
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That's cool I was asking for clarification as folk were starting to speculate. Best to get it "on wax". Save folk speculating, or rather joking about not reading it (I don't think that was a serious charge) and then that being misinterpreted.
Dunno about hating, I loved it, really looking forward to the rest. The folk hating probably wouldn't be if they hadn't spent the last 5 years moaning about the thing they're now moaning about. You could set your watch by it.
I'm not mortally offended about the "lie". or outraged and doubting all your motivations roflmao as some poor souls are. Was just wondering and felt best to ask. Then we have an answer. :)
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If it was a lie that sent us down a years-long theory rabbit hole, I'd be pissed. But what Madness said about the Kellhus POV is pretty benign in the grand scheme of things.
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In case there are those of you that only follow one or two topics and haven't noticed yet:
http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.ca/2016/05/extract-from-r-scott-bakkers-great_18.html
Pat got his excerpt too.
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Wertzone's review is up. (http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2016/05/the-great-ordeal-by-r-scott-bakker.html) It's fervour whetting as themerchant mentioned in another thread.
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Yeah his line about he can't see how this stuff was just meant to be mid book "convergence" (borrowing from Erikson's terminology)has me the most excited yet. Starting to get pretty spoilerly in that thread though in westeros, so don't go into it just thining the excerpts are getting discussed we get more than that.
MG i knew was going to love it, but to see Wert come out so strong on it as well as Pat it doesn't half warm my cockles.
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Yeah - I'm excited for Grimdark Mag's still forthcoming review.
I believe I've mentioned this previously to MG and The Man Himself but given the nature of what he's withheld til now, I expected universally good reviews.
EDIT: And yeah...
I guess what I qualify as spoilers and what two major reviewers and the Westerosi qualify as spoilers differs quite a bit.
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EDIT: And yeah...
I guess what I qualify as spoilers and what two major reviewers and the Westerosi qualify as spoilers differs quite a bit.
That's why I've been pretty mum since reading it. Everything I say could be a spoiler to someone, since what I say and what I don't say could be construed (or misconstrued) any which way.
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EDIT: And yeah...
I guess what I qualify as spoilers and what two major reviewers and the Westerosi qualify as spoilers differs quite a bit.
That's why I've been pretty mum since reading it. Everything I say could be a spoiler to someone, since what I say and what I don't say could be construed (or misconstrued) any which way.
Yeah and it's the folk who made the big deal about spoilers over there now asking the questions that are spoilers, go figure lol.
Some of them have a mental relationship with the books and especially the author. It's really strange.
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Yeah and it's the folk who made the big deal about spoilers over there now asking the questions that are spoilers, go figure lol.
Some of them have a mental relationship with the books and especially the author. It's really strange.
Indeed, answer one, piss off another.
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One more review from GRim Dark and that should set me up nicely for TGO, which will set me up immensely for TUC, i'm assuming.
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Hey, this is the only info we have to go off of though, right? Anyhow, I didn't mean to stir the pot, sorry for doing so. My critic wasn't one to put down RSB. I just agreed with Pat that I think it couldve, would've been an excellent novel in its entirety. I'm sure TGO is great on its own and I'm excited for it. It was more of a "what could've been" type of thing. Sorry, don't mean to be a Debbie Downer.
I'll make this conversation make sense in the future, MSJ, if Bakker hasn't clarified before then :).
Hey Mike, I was wondering when reading this, I know you've read the TGO manuscript, but did that include TUC ( or the draft of what will be TUC)? Or will the release of TUC be new content for you as well?
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Lol - well, I'm not sure how the draft I saw has been split - though I have a good sense from talking with the ARC readers - and while there are things I can't unknow regarding the future of the series and forthcoming volumes, there's actually quite a bit of new content in TGO that wasn't in that portion of the draft. It's best been described by a member other than myself as seeing the black and white to full colour versions of the same narrative. As an aspiring writer, it strikes me as impressive that there are so, so many line by line changes in the comparisons I've made with some of the ARC readers.
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Yes, he does mention he does a lot of rewriting and polishing of the narrative and it seems then that this may sometimes include even fairly substantial things, as well as more minor stuff. In that regard the fact that he is buffing up TUC and making changes to it will mean you will find new stuff in that as well.