The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Wolfdrop on July 28, 2017, 09:43:45 pm

Title: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: Wolfdrop on July 28, 2017, 09:43:45 pm
As far as I'm aware this has been the first book where we've seen "partial" salting. Where a limb or part of one, usually arms of legs is salted from contact instead of killing them.

Yes, we've seen "rinds" or skin damage from proximity to Chorae but not from direct hits.

Serwa survives a direct hit and only loses the arm? But before we've seen cases with those have especially deep Marks to start salting from just proximity. Surely a Mark like Serwa's should have left her dead after a direct hit to the arm rather than losing the limb?

In fact, in the first chapter of TDTCB, Achamian is essentially held at gunpoint by a Chorae above his palm. Now, at 44 years of age at the start his Mark must have been pretty deep.

I made Chorae feel less dangerous seeing people survive them. Was there any explanation for this?

Following Serwa's example shouldn't
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The effects of Chorae
Post by: Purrball on July 28, 2017, 11:31:36 pm
I suspect it might have to do with contact time. Serwe was moving when she was hit, perhaps the chorae was only in contact for fractions of a second. With kelhus, the chorae was held to his leg, maybe for over a second.

Other possibility, is some effect of Serwe's magical sword limits the effectiveness of chorae.

I think we've seen burns or scarring from close proximity to a chorae before, I could be wrong, been a while since I've read the series.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 29, 2017, 12:39:56 am
The way I remember/interpret it, Serwa doesn't take a direct hit to her skin.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: codebread on July 29, 2017, 04:03:19 am
It certainly reads like it actually hit her, but perhaps it's just an editing issue. The sword theory is an interesting one.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: Wolfdrop on July 29, 2017, 10:33:35 am
You might be onto something with the Cindersword.

Didn't it render Mirshoa immune to Skuthula's fire, hence why it went in with the jaws?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: Madness on July 29, 2017, 01:29:43 pm
Lol, I can't wait to read the canon version of Serwa's Dance. And really everything leading up to fucking Skuthula!

Don't Chorae Bowmen refer to the direct hit as a "spank?"

The Cindersword no doubt has interesting properties attributed to it (is there a Glossary entry?). And in TGO the Boy used Mimara's knife pilfered from the Coffers to "make light" scraping a Chorae so Emidilis was able to fashion sorcerous weapons that counteract the effects of Chorae in some way.

I don't think we'll ever get a clear elucidation regarding the Sorcerous Spectrum of Salting ;).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 29, 2017, 02:10:00 pm
And in TGO the Boy used Mimara's knife pilfered from the Coffers to "make light" scraping a Chorae so Emidilis was able to fashion sorcerous weapons that counteract the effects of Chorae in some way.
Actually, all sorcerous artifacts created by Emilidis are immune to Chorae. It's in the glossary.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: Somnambulist on July 29, 2017, 02:33:55 pm
I think it said something like it merely grazed her knuckle, but it was enough to salt her hand and forearm (paraphrasing badly).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: Wolfdrop on July 29, 2017, 03:48:55 pm
I missed have missed the part in the glossary about his stuff being immune to Chorae.

And nope, no entry on Cinderswords.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: themerchant on July 29, 2017, 05:13:23 pm
And in TGO the Boy used Mimara's knife pilfered from the Coffers to "make light" scraping a Chorae so Emidilis was able to fashion sorcerous weapons that counteract the effects of Chorae in some way.
Actually, all sorcerous artifacts created by Emilidis are immune to Chorae. It's in the glossary.

Indeed and his quest to make an object indistinguishable from god's creation.

Cinderswords are covered by the sword's name in the glossary i believe I can't recall what it is called now, but there were 6 of them, and they rendered their bearers immune to dragonfire.

I noticed that Chrorae seemed to work differently. Or worked a bit different from how i thought they did.

The Serwe part is "The quarrel barely stubbed her knuckle and yet it was enough-more than enough."

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: Madness on July 30, 2017, 02:43:58 pm
And in TGO the Boy used Mimara's knife pilfered from the Coffers to "make light" scraping a Chorae so Emidilis was able to fashion sorcerous weapons that counteract the effects of Chorae in some way.
Actually, all sorcerous artifacts created by Emilidis are immune to Chorae. It's in the glossary.

I missed have missed the part in the glossary about his stuff being immune to Chorae.

And nope, no entry on Cinderswords.

Thank you :).

And in TGO the Boy used Mimara's knife pilfered from the Coffers to "make light" scraping a Chorae so Emidilis was able to fashion sorcerous weapons that counteract the effects of Chorae in some way.
Actually, all sorcerous artifacts created by Emilidis are immune to Chorae. It's in the glossary.

Indeed and his quest to make an object indistinguishable from god's creation.

Cinderswords are covered by the sword's name in the glossary i believe I can't recall what it is called now, but there were 6 of them, and they rendered their bearers immune to dragonfire.

I noticed that Chrorae seemed to work differently. Or worked a bit different from how i thought they did.

The Serwe part is "The quarrel barely stubbed her knuckle and yet it was enough-more than enough."

And thank you, Captain Slogger ;).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: Cynical Cat on July 31, 2017, 11:15:46 am
Remember that the Witch Most Holy is young.  Her Mark isn't as deep as middle aged Akka because she hasn't as much time to pile up all that black ink.  Both Moenghus and Inrau, who were comparatively small fry as sorcerers go, were not instantly slain when they were directly touched with Chorae.  So the hit to an extremity is merely a mortal wound to Serwa instead of instant death.

I love how Serwa's Dance is both awesome and an inversion of the "beautiful woman fights naked with a sword" trope.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 31, 2017, 11:34:27 am
Remember that the Witch Most Holy is young.  Her Mark isn't as deep as middle aged Akka
Pretty sure she has one of the most severe Marks in the series. It's supported by Mimara seeing her as "slender Ciphrang", and Mimara never referenced Achamian in such strong terms. I seem to remember there was a passage somewhere (probably around the Last Whelming) stating that Serwa's Mark is deeper than that of Cleric. Not 100% certain, though. [edit] Couldn't find any such passage, so the quote in my post below (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2281.msg36351#msg36351) is a more accurate assessment of Serwa's Mark.

My guess is it has something to do with her Metagnostic proficiency.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: Cynical Cat on July 31, 2017, 11:38:19 am
Being damned isn't the same as having the Mark.  Just ask the Scylvendi.  I'm rereading the book now and I'll keep an eye open to references how deep her Mark is.  My first read through was almost too fast. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 31, 2017, 11:41:44 am
Being damned isn't the same as having the Mark.
As far as I remember Mimara always strongly connected a sorcerer's damnation with their Mark. At least that was my reading of her judgments. It always seemed very interesting to me.

Got a quote from "The Last Whelming":
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult"
She glares up into Serwa’s face, struck yet again by the heinous profundity of the witch’s Mark—as deep as any sorcerer of rank despite her tender years.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: Cynical Cat on July 31, 2017, 11:50:46 am
Being damned isn't the same as having the Mark.
As far as I remember Mimara always strongly connected a sorcerer's damnation with their Mark. At least that was my reading of her judgments. It always seemed very interesting to me.

The Mark is certainly a strong part of it with Akka and Cleric, but let us remember what Kelhus said about damnation and premeditation.  Serwa doesn't see most people as real and Kelhus mentioned seeing people as instruments was the path to damnation.  Serwa's likely to be extremely guilty of that.  As for Mimara seeing her as being a Ciphrang while living, that's also the territory of Cnaiur and the Captain and neither of them were sorcerers.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 31, 2017, 11:53:12 am
As for Mimara seeing her as being a Ciphrang while living, that's also the territory of Cnaiur and the Captain and neither of them were sorcerers.
Indeed. I also edited my post above, providing a quote from "The Last Whelming".
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: Cynical Cat on July 31, 2017, 12:02:54 pm
It's a good quote.  Probably her Mark is so strong because of her heinous Anasurimbur strength.  In that case, it's probably the fact that it was a graze that allows her to be "merely" maimed.  It is, now that I consider the matter, one of the few times we see a glancing hit with Chorae on a sorcerer of rank.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: littlegrice on August 01, 2017, 02:50:03 am
It's a good quote.  Probably her Mark is so strong because of her heinous Anasurimbur strength.  In that case, it's probably the fact that it was a graze that allows her to be "merely" maimed.  It is, now that I consider the matter, one of the few times we see a glancing hit with Chorae on a sorcerer of rank.

I can't find the quote anywhere, but I seem to remember someone, somewhere talking about how the deeper the mark, the MORE influenced by Chorae.  Kellhus got touched?  Insta-dead(presumably ;))  Serwa gets grazed, and she losses most(?) of her arm.  Meta-Gnostic cuts both ways, apparently.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 01, 2017, 02:55:01 am
It's a good quote.  Probably her Mark is so strong because of her heinous Anasurimbur strength.  In that case, it's probably the fact that it was a graze that allows her to be "merely" maimed.  It is, now that I consider the matter, one of the few times we see a glancing hit with Chorae on a sorcerer of rank.

I can't find the quote anywhere, but I seem to remember someone, somewhere talking about how the deeper the mark, the MORE influenced by Chorae.  Kellhus got touched?  Insta-dead(presumably ;))  Serwa gets grazed, and she losses most(?) of her arm.  Meta-Gnostic cuts both ways, apparently.

I remember it.  There's a line about Nonmen Quya who are so deeply Marked that they'll apparently start salting within an armslength of a Chorae.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 01, 2017, 06:04:22 am
I remember it.  There's a line about Nonmen Quya who are so deeply Marked that they'll apparently start salting within an armslength of a Chorae.
The way I've read it, something similar happens to Serwa when she catches a Skylvendi arrow at the beginning of TUC and her arm and fist are superficially salted. She didn't touch a Chorae that was affixed to the arrow, it just came close to her body.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: Madness on August 01, 2017, 12:27:47 pm
I remember it.  There's a line about Nonmen Quya who are so deeply Marked that they'll apparently start salting within an armslength of a Chorae.
The way I've read it, something similar happens to Serwa when she catches a Skylvendi arrow at the beginning of TUC and her arm and fist are superficially salted. She didn't touch a Chorae that was affixed to the arrow, it just came close to her body.

There are other similar superficial saltings. Kellhus's hand or knuckles, I believe, in TJE when Sorweel first meets him. Achamian's cheek in TJE when Mimara and the Skin-Eaters are carrying him through the Black Halls.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, maybe Achamian just gained a deeper mark due to his exercise of sorcery over PON and the following twenty years, which is why he didn't superficially salt in TDTCB with Geshrunni (RIP).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 01, 2017, 12:48:06 pm
In the halls, Akka is punched by a Sranc with a Chorae in it's fist.  That's an inch away from flesh at most. Also, you're probably right about his Mark being deeper.  He whips out a lot of sorcery in the next two books, not to mention the next 20 years.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: themerchant on August 01, 2017, 03:14:36 pm
I remember it.  There's a line about Nonmen Quya who are so deeply Marked that they'll apparently start salting within an armslength of a Chorae.
The way I've read it, something similar happens to Serwa when she catches a Skylvendi arrow at the beginning of TUC and her arm and fist are superficially salted. She didn't touch a Chorae that was affixed to the arrow, it just came close to her body.

There are other similar superficial saltings. Kellhus's hand or knuckles, I believe, in TJE when Sorweel first meets him. Achamian's cheek in TJE when Mimara and the Skin-Eaters are carrying him through the Black Halls.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, maybe Achamian just gained a deeper mark due to his exercise of sorcery over PON and the following twenty years, which is why he didn't superficially salt in TDTCB with Geshrunni (RIP).

serwe get ssalted grabbing an arrow in the early chapter of TUC.

When cnaiur is dangling the chora over akka at the end of TTT he can feel himself salting.

Dont think any of them are are chorae to skin though.

I think Kellhus has salt on his swordhand in TJE.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: Woden on August 01, 2017, 06:30:55 pm
Is it possible that there are different types and degrees of chorae? ::)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: boneclinkz on August 01, 2017, 06:46:07 pm
I sure would like to have an appendix entry talking about the Aporos, because I sure am curious about Chorae considering how prominently they figure into the story, yet none of the characters seem very interested in knowing how they were created or how they work.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 01, 2017, 07:22:50 pm
Wasn't the Chorae that hit Serwa the same that had been given to Sorweel via Yatwer? (I remember it being described as suddenly coming out of nowhere...) Maybe it's a combination of the effects of the pouch and the sword that renders it less effective, or makes it so that its effect is not immediate?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: littlegrice on August 01, 2017, 08:56:00 pm
Wasn't the Chorae that hit Serwa the same that had been given to Sorweel via Yatwer? (I remember it being described as suddenly coming out of nowhere...) Maybe it's a combination of the effects of the pouch and the sword that renders it less effective, or makes it so that its effect is not immediate?

The Chorae coming out of nowhere.  I was thinking it was little Kelmomas on his way to kill dad, and saw Serwa fighting for her life, and thought 'well, now, another sibling to kill?  why not?'  He knew no one found the artifact on Sorweel, so he could have stopped on his way to the Golden room to find it real quick.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 01, 2017, 09:50:43 pm
The Chorae coming out of nowhere.  I was thinking it was little Kelmomas on his way to kill dad, and saw Serwa fighting for her life, and thought 'well, now, another sibling to kill?  why not?'  He knew no one found the artifact on Sorweel, so he could have stopped on his way to the Golden room to find it real quick.

I thought that too when rereading TUC a couple of days ago, but I'm not fully sure if the timing works for Kelmomas. It would definitely make more sense for it to be him than a random skin-spy/Sranc/other Consult agent.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: The Sharmat on August 01, 2017, 09:56:54 pm
I think she just miscalculated. It happens even to full Dunyain. Why not to a halfbreed? I'm pretty sure little Kel was being locked up with his uncles during this anyway.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 01, 2017, 10:06:42 pm
I think she just miscalculated. It happens even to full Dunyain. Why not to a halfbreed? I'm pretty sure little Kel was being locked up with his uncles during this anyway.

The way the 100th Chorae comes out of nowhere seems too reminiscent of Sorweel's Chorae for it to be a coincidence, though, even if it wasn't Kelmomas using it. I believe that if she had miscalculated the original number, the wording would be somewhat different.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: Madness on August 01, 2017, 10:30:36 pm
I think she just miscalculated. It happens even to full Dunyain. Why not to a halfbreed? I'm pretty sure little Kel was being locked up with his uncles during this anyway.

Samesies 8).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: The Sharmat on August 01, 2017, 11:05:46 pm
On an aside note I was shocked to find after being basically a nonentity for over half this series Serwa ended but being one of my favorite characters. Bakker's pacing is so...odd.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: littlegrice on August 01, 2017, 11:24:24 pm
On an aside note I was shocked to find after being basically a nonentity for over half this series Serwa ended but being one of my favorite characters. Bakker's pacing is so...odd.

I read somewhere that Bakker was reading one of the Song of Ice and Fire books, and realized that Martin had made a bunch of new characters mostly because he was bored of the old ones.  Bakker realized he had, and was, doing the same thing in the Aspect Emperor.  I don't remember when he had this revelation, but maybe it made him slow his roll as far as rolling out substantive traits and plot points for his new characters, and instead hoarding them until the very end, and, presumably, the No-God series.

Or maybe he really really REALLY likes fucking with us.  So, like a 50/50 chance? :D
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: The Sharmat on August 01, 2017, 11:26:56 pm
Unfortunately if that was his aim he's nonetheless forced himself into a situation that demands a large number of new characters, and old tertiary ones being promoted to main characters. Either that or the dead are gonna start rising a lot for some reason.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: littlegrice on August 01, 2017, 11:33:01 pm
It seemed at first in the Judging Eye that he was going to be headed in the generational direction, i.e. the old characters were now more scenery and plot points than characters, but he zigged on us, going back to almost ALL the old characters AS characters.  The only ones of the Old Guard left though is Achamian, and, if you count her, Esmenet.  Gotta have some new blood, or at the very least, some new POVs of TAE characters in the No-God.  No matter what, though, very much looking forward to the end of the world.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: The Sharmat on August 01, 2017, 11:37:52 pm
I didn't mind that. I mean, it had been a generation. It makes sense to shift the focus. In that way and a few other TJE and TWLW feel more like a different series from Prince of Nothing than TGO and TUC.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The effects of Chorae
Post by: Madness on August 02, 2017, 01:47:00 am
I read somewhere that Bakker was reading one of the Song of Ice and Fire books, and realized that Martin had made a bunch of new characters mostly because he was bored of the old ones.  Bakker realized he had, and was, doing the same thing in the Aspect Emperor.  I don't remember when he had this revelation, but maybe it made him slow his roll as far as rolling out substantive traits and plot points for his new characters, and instead hoarding them until the very end, and, presumably, the No-God series.

New R. Scott Bakker interview (http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.ca/2009/01/new-r-scott-bakker-interview.html)

EDIT:

I didn't mind that. I mean, it had been a generation. It makes sense to shift the focus. In that way and a few other TJE and TWLW feel more like a different series from Prince of Nothing than TGO and TUC.

I do wonder what you'll make of TAE as a whole, Sharmat, whenever you're compelled to read it as one. I think Bakker did remarkably well, especially with the five year gap - I thought there'd be a much clearer change in style between WLW and TGO. I really only noticed the prevalent use of "a fraction" (in POVs besides the Survivor's where it made stylistic sense) instead of the mixed metaphors for thoughts and states of mind he'd used up until TGO, the inconsistency across the series in capitalizing proper names (a whole bunch in TGO and TUC seem to be capitalized which previously weren't), and... there was a third thing... I can't remember off the top of my head but it'll come back to me. It's documented somewhere else on this monument as well.

For me, basically - and I might be saying this because it's fairly fresh in my mind - TSA is doing something structurally akin to The Wire. TAE is just zoomed out a little more than PON. It's fairly obvious that certain readers don't like that - if I recall correctly, the union storyline in S2 alienated a whole bunch of people who just aren't into that kind of story-telling (I happen to love it).

Body More, Murder Land (Baltimore, Maryland as a piece of graffiti tells it in the show) is a complicated place as is Earwa.