[Madness]

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, oneeyed.

Somewhere buried in this thread Curethan and I talk about the No-God as being perceptively blind - we were trying to figure out how it might perceive when it is "hooked up" to the Weapon Races. Is it a Tekne approximation to what we think happens with the Gods and their followers, whom seem to provide nodes of perception and agency for the Gods in the world?

Could Kellhus's ultimate goal to be to help the No-God? What would it mean for the No-God to reconcile its two selves?

Pretty cool idea.

[oneeyed]

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, oneeyed.

Somewhere buried in this thread Curethan and I talk about the No-God as being perceptively blind - we were trying to figure out how it might perceive when it is "hooked up" to the Weapon Races. Is it a Tekne approximation to what we think happens with the Gods and their followers, whom seem to provide nodes of perception and agency for the Gods in the world?

Thanks for the welcome. As I understood it, the no god perceives and sees only through souls. In his quest for defining himself he devours... and becomes more. While he asks, he can only get answers through destruction.

One point which is very interesting for me is that he seems to be one of the only innocent or pure beings in Bakker's world. A child. All the deaths, only a side effect of his presence. He is corrupting but uncorrupted... yet. That's the impression I got anyway.

And yes, the meeting/confrontation between the no god and kellus will be definitely interesting. Can Kellus lie to and manipulate a god ? Whatever happens I'm not sure we'll even know if his intent is to help or as usual control, even after the fact.

[mrganondorf]

Hey oneeyed!  Welcome from a fellow n00b

The meeting between Kellhus and the No-God would be awesome, especially since they seem like mirror images to me in this respect: as the No-God controls the derived, so Kellhus makes limbs of nations.  Like two super-meta-transformers-group thingies.  Would something like the seeing-flame let Kellhus wield the ordeal as a single unity?  Perhaps he's waiting to reveal it at the right time.  Sure is a good thing there was only ever one ensouled skinspy, can't think what the No-God would do with a lot of pawns like that!

[Wilshire]

Kellhus, standing at the center of the Order and rallying the troops who are all crying out in rapture, exquisitely resembles the No-God surrounded by legions of screaming sranc.

[mrganondorf]

Kellhus, standing at the center of the Order and rallying the troops who are all crying out in rapture, exquisitely resembles the No-God surrounded by legions of screaming sranc.

Maybe we should expect even more?  Maybe Kellhus will literally seize control over the great Ordeal at some point.

[mrganondorf]

Thinking about--whatever the No-God is, it's an effective way to get rid of all of the derived if the story has a happy ending.  No-God used to somehow kill them all or herd them all into the ark which is sealed and/or launched into space.

Could be a cool twist.  The No-God arises, the Great Oreal, surrounded in an ocean of Sranc, prepare to die, then all of the Sranc begin consuming each other!  The men see Mog approach, Kellhus leans out the carapace's window with a big smile and a thumbs up. 

[Somnambulist]

I like your brand of crazy, mrganondorf.

[Wilshire]

lol a happy ending would be quite the twist.

[mrganondorf]

This bit key to what the No-God is?

"Gods are epochal beings, not quite alive.  Since the Now eludes them, they are forever divided.  Sometimes nothing blinds souls more profoundly than the apprehension of the Whole.  Men need recall this when they pray"

-Ajencis (beginning of chapter 13 WLW)

Perhaps the No-God is that the carapace forces all the gods together into a whole where they/it is blinded by the apprehension of the now?  Reconstructing the Carapace is the main work of the Consult--perhaps by putting the right soul in it, the one that is isomorphic with the whole?  I mean, the point of the chorae on the outside of the carapace is not primarily to defend the No-God, but seal the contents within. 

[Wilshire]

This bit key to what the No-God is?

"Gods are epochal beings, not quite alive.  Since the Now eludes them, they are forever divided.  Sometimes nothing blinds souls more profoundly than the apprehension of the Whole.  Men need recall this when they pray"

-Ajencis (beginning of chapter 13 WLW)

Probably a hint but I can tease little meaning from it.

[locke]

 basically if you apprehend the logos/the Absolute, you become blind.

you become blind you ask what do you see.

Blindness isn't limited to vision, context suggest it applies to meaning as well. And/Or it applies to blindness of self

Ergo, Kellhus is the No God because he apprehends the logos/absolute becomes blind to meaning and self.  In other words he has finally, successfully found meaninglessness in an inherently meaningful world which means he has achieved the author's stated goal for him.

[Wilshire]

Kind of an ironic "be careful what you wish for". They seek to be self moving, perfect and autonomous beings through absolute domination of and understanding of everything. If one reaches that goal, they lose all ability to see/understand any meaning at all.

But what was the first instance of Mog? How could the Inchoroi's tekne, a mountain of dead bodies, and the Mengecca make the No-God? (that is not the start of a bad joke ). Those pieces don't fit into the puzzle you put together for Kellhus.

[locke]

Kind of an ironic "be careful what you wish for". They seek to be self moving, perfect and autonomous beings through absolute domination of and understanding of everything. If one reaches that goal, they lose all ability to see/understand any meaning at all.

But what was the first instance of Mog? How could the Inchoroi's tekne, a mountain of dead bodies, and the Mengecca make the No-God? (that is not the start of a bad joke ). Those pieces don't fit into the puzzle you put together for Kellhus.

that's just the inchoroi manner of praying.

[mrganondorf]

Rehashing someone else's idea: Mog is a 'soul clump' a sort of gravity well?  That's why it takes so long to make one both times.  Need lots of souls (with nifty production of corpses) and need the right kind of souls.  The Consult have been laboriously harvesting throughout the world since Mog's death.  This would lead them into skirmishes with others and the mandate throughout history and the whole project accelerates when they are able to kidnap via skin spies.

Maybe they have to kind of guess who they need and then drag them in front of the Inverse Fire to see if that soul is a missing piece of the jigsaw.  Get enough souls condensed and it becomes a pit sucking in souls traveling from the Outside to Earwa thus preventing birth.  Feed it enough and it will collapse every soul into one.  Do not know where the 144k would fit into all that.

[Wilshire]

The No-God and 144k are separate entities I think. The 144k is the Inchoroi's goal, the No-God is 'simply' a means to that end... Or at least that was my interpretation. I think "God" is a bit of a misnomer, and Mog here is more sorcery than God/Outside.