[What Came Before]

It's a friday night and I'm posting about everyone's favorite union of genre fantasy and mature philosophical themes, with just a dash of alien dick for piquance. ... I need a life.

You're all pretty intelligent, articulate people here, so I was interested hearing in your own words why you like this series so much. Is it the characters? The plot? Bakker's prose? I bet it's a little bit of everything. There's a lot not to like about the series (why does everyone cry at the drop of a hat? Oh wait, this is Earwa) but it still manages to be fantastic anyways. This is also one of the few fantasy series with a cult following that doesn't seem to have its fair share of wackos, guys who think they really are Kellhus notwithstanding. Though that would definitely change if it ever goes mainstream, god willing. Bring on your Esmi x Aurang slash fiction, weirdos, I want Bakker to get a movie deal.

As for why I love The Second Apocalypse:

1. Akka. Who can't love this guy? I don't care if some readers think he's whiny or self-obsessed. Let's be honest here, guys. If Akka was real, he'd be reading this series. He's easily slighted, can't move on from The One That Got Away, Earwa's frat boys think he's weak, etc. He's pretty much every guy at the bottom of the high school social ladder with godlike powers. Akka has serious issues, and it is his imperfections that save him from the dreaded Mary Sue label. To see such an insecure character who in fact can keep a lid on his powers is refreshing. It takes real skill to essentially make Akira-the-sorceror and not have the series devolve into a creepy power fantasy. Kudos, Bakker.

2. The Consult. I think a series is defined by its villains, and the Consult deliver in spades. A meditation on the human condition is incomplete without its dark side, and the Inchoroi/Consult take the universal desire for gratification and control to its revolting extreme. This is real, horrific evil. The kind that raises the stakes of the story and makes you care about the characters in turn. The kind that makes you almost wince out of reflex every time Aurang or Golgotterath are mentioned. Bakker's got some issues with his therapist he needs to talk about, but first he needs to thank his dealer. He was smoking some goooood shit when he thought up skin-spies and sranc. The guy has a twisted imagination and I can't help but marvel at it.

3. Sorcery. Finally, a magic system that feels real. Wait until the whackos come out of the wood work, I'm surprised I haven't read about some guy practicing his Odaini Concussion Cant on his tree in the backyard yet. Like everything else in Bakker's world, it feels authentic, real. A magic system derived from ideal meanings and the pure force of passion. As simple as that. It's too good to improve on.

4. The names. I don't know what it is about Bakker's names, but they went from being needlessly exotic-sounding to capturing the style and flavor you would expect the names of some alternate Earth to have. The guttural language of the Inchoroi's creations, the Galeoth tongue, the lyricism of the Nonmen languages. It's incredible. Each city name is perfect: Momemn, Invishi, even Golgotterath. Bakker's got a knack for invoking everything we need to know about a place in a name.

That about does it. There's more but any more knob polishing and Bakker's gonna have to start payin me for this. What about you guys?

[What Came Before]

The world-building. That's really my primary interest in the series. It's probably my favorite fantasy world, to be honest. I just love the strange combination of the fantasy setting with technologically advanced aliens and the concept of gods and real afterlives. I like the exotic names and the influence of middle/near eastern culture as opposed to the more typical medieval Europe. I also appreciate the way Bakker weaves philosophy into the worldbuilding, even if I don't think he always executes it very well. And I just love the entire concept of the Dunyain. Same with the Nonmen and the Consult, to a lesser extent. Such an awesome idea for a group of characters (especially because their function to the plot is still rather mysterious). From the standpoint of the actual writing, characterization, and plotting of the series, I don't like it as much as say, A Song of Ice and Fire, but the world blows it away by a long shot. It's funny because I have a huge interest in discussing Earwa and the mechanics of the various metaphysics, so on and so forth, but I still haven't even read WWL (I'm doing a re-read of the series now, which will lead into my first reading of WWL). I almost had to force myself through TJE up until Cil-Aujas, where it really grabbed me. So I have kind of a strange relationship with the series. The only characters' perspectives that I can say I've genuinely enjoyed reading are Kellhus, Conphas, Cnaiur, and sometimes Akka, though the latter case is more just because so many important parts of the series are told from his POV. And it's weird because I do appreciate what Bakker is trying to do with Akka as a character (all of the traits you mentioned), but I simply don't find him all that engaging to read. I feel like this is more about Bakker's writing style than any particular deficiency with the character itself though.

Agreed on the names as well. I didn't like them at first, but they really grew on me. Like I just love the word "ciphrang" for some reason.

[What Came Before]

Everyone losing, or at least not everyone winning.
 I can't tell you how much it irked me that harry potter didn't die a horrible painful death. An author that is afraid to mangle, scar, or kill off their own characters pisses me off. It makes everything more real when anyone and everyone has issues.

[What Came Before]

I'm left arguing.

And so many other things compound the argument, complicate it to a painful extent. Indeed, even down to names. Friggin' nuances curdle argument.

Sounds like a love/hate relationship, actually...oops!

[What Came Before]

Bakker managed to successfully create a universe I could only dream about when I was younger. Now it's my measuring stick for everything else.
(Yeah, I said it)

Oh, and the Inchoroi/Consult are my favorite 'baddies'

[What Came Before]

you dreamed of rape aliens when you were younger? your mother must have been concerned.

[What Came Before]

you dreamed of rape aliens when you were younger? your mother must have been concerned.

What mother doesn't know can't hurt her

[What Came Before]

How dare you come into my sophisticated thread and fill it with your... your inanity. Jizz aliens are serious business

[What Came Before]

It is refreshing to have the luxury of derailing one thread out of many without sidetracking an entire noosphere of speculation .

I can't tell you how much it irked me that harry potter didn't die a horrible painful death.

Second. It also doubly irks me that it is a plot inconsistency that Harry -

(click to show/hide)

the seventh Horcrux!!!

- can fucking live and Voldemort can die...

GOD ROWLING!!! WHY'D YOU FUCK UP A GOOD THING!?

Inanity aside, I will absolutely give a more full relevant account of why I love TSA at a later date. For sophistication, class, and such and such...

[What Came Before]

It is refreshing to have the luxury of derailing one thread out of many without sidetracking an entire noosphere of speculation .

I can't tell you how much it irked me that harry potter didn't die a horrible painful death.

Second. It also doubly irks me that it is a plot inconsistency that Harry -

(click to show/hide)

the seventh Horcrux!!!

- can fucking live and Voldemort can die...

GOD ROWLING!!! WHY'D YOU FUCK UP A GOOD THING!?

Inanity aside, I will absolutely give a more full relevant account of why I love TSA at a later date. For sophistication, class, and such and such...

(click to show/hide)

Harry was and wasn't a Horcrux, his scar was, in a sense he was double souled, but it is possible his soul was tied to his whole body and Voldemort's soul was tied to the scar.   Voldemort's AK spell killed both him and the Horcrux--because of the weirdness of that, or because Harry possessed and released all three of the Hallows (thus passing the unwritten 'test' of Death by accepting Death, like the end of the tale of the three brothers)--his soul landed in a sort of limbo. 

It's entirely possible that Harry was talking to Death, not Dumbledore, and Death gave him an option of going on or coming back.  Remember how in the tale how irate Death was at being cheated, Voldemort has been cheating Death, and the trio have been acting as Death's servants as they return each piece of Voldemort to Death one by one.  If you take Death to have a personification as in the Tale of the Three Brothers, it would make sense for him to make a bargain with Harry because Harry has shown himself to bargain in good faith, Death lets Harry go back in exchange for collecting the bit of Voldemort attached to Harry's Scar.  It may well be that it was Death that severed the bond between their two souls rather than any sort of 'choosing' taking place.

In any event, there are multiple ways to interpret the final events of Deathly Hallows.

[What Came Before]

Thank you for that marvelous analysis of Harry Potter. I feel better for not going past Book 3.

[What Came Before]

Thank you for that marvelous analysis of Harry Potter. I feel better for not going past Book 3.

you sir, are probably the first person not to get upset about that. ive found a kindred spirit it would seem.

[What Came Before]

Among many things, I'd have to say that my favourite aspect of TSA is Bakker's spectacular grasp on when and how to reveal certain information. I absolutely love that subsequent books force a reevaluation of previous ones, as well as the fact that his revelations are so controlled that we can sit here and endlessly speculate on the meaning and importance of past details and wildly guess at the metaphysics and possible futures. I think I would be disappointed if I could make full sense of Earwa before he had finished writing

[What Came Before]

Thank you for that marvelous analysis of Harry Potter. I feel better for not going past Book 3.

you sir, are probably the first person not to get upset about that. ive found a kindred spirit it would seem.

Don't mention it. That was a dark time for me.

[What Came Before]

1. Bakker's prose. I used to think Martin was good. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA (Martin is still better than 95% of the hacks out there, but Bakker is in another fucking class altogether)

2. The philosophy. If the Second Apocalypse ever achieves posterity, it will probably be on the strength of the way it merged complex philosophical speculation with a narrative rich in spectacle and pathos.

3. The yarn! It's just a good plot! The overt reference to scripture are something that (to my knowledge) has never been done in a dark fantasy work. (He probably did this to juxtapose the Truest of the True with the Falsest of the False for fantasy readers that still see scripture as a revelation)