[TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty

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MSJ

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« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2016, 09:12:28 am »
I'm just gonna need more than the voice in his head tell him maiming a beetle in front of a priapic altar counts as him being the literal chosen of Ajokli.

It's not the idea itself I object to. It's the utter certainty of it.

I literally just gave you more evidence in my previous post, along with countless other posts in the ARC thread that back it up.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2016, 09:33:42 am »
No, you haven't.  You've provided reasons that could mean he's the chosen of Ajokli, but don't prove that he is.  The only definitive example we have of something unusual happening is him being invisible to the White Luck, which could mean a god is shielding or could mean something else.   Kelmomas certainly believes he's special, but so did Conphas.  Narcissistic sociopaths are not good sources when it comes to their own relative importance in the universe.  I'm not saying you're not right.  It's fairly likely that you are right.  I'm just saying that there is no definitive proof that your interpretation of facts is correct.  You're assuming that the intervening force is Ajokli, which is a very reasonable assumption based on the evidence, but there is no definitive evidence that is Ajokli.

MSJ

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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2016, 10:02:07 am »
I'm not saying you're not right.  It's fairly likely that you are right.  I'm just saying that there is no definitive proof that your interpretation of facts is correct.  You're assuming that the intervening force is Ajokli, which is a very reasonable assumption based on the evidence, but there is no definitive evidence that is Ajokli.

So Im basing my opinions on the facts we are given in the text and yet that is not definitive enough for you? Shall we make some things up then? All I can base my assumptions off of are the text. They text points to Kelmommas being chosen by Ajokli. How the librarian says it works and other bits we get here and there all point to this being the case. It's as much proof as you're going to get.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2016, 10:20:14 am »
Yes, it is as much proof as we are going to get another book comes out.  And you have good reason for making the the interpretation you do and there is a very good chance that your interpretation is the correct one.  I, and others, are saying that the text is not definitive on this point and much of the circumstantial evidence comes from the point of view of a narcissistic sociopath (albeit a highly intelligent one) and is thus somewhat suspect.  It's possible that Ajokli is being presented as a red herring to conceal some other force at work.  We're just a bunch of suspicious bastards and the text isn't definitive, so we're keeping our eyes and minds open to other possibilities. 

The Sharmat

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« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2016, 10:25:44 am »
A hypotheses can be valid without being definitive. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just also not convinced you're right.

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2016, 11:07:57 am »
We are students of Drusas Achamain.  We do not deny, but we do doubt.

MSJ

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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2016, 11:33:38 am »
Yes, it is as much proof as we are going to get another book comes out.  And you have good reason for making the the interpretation you do and there is a very good chance that your interpretation is the correct one.  I, and others, are saying that the text is not definitive on this point and much of the circumstantial evidence comes from the point of view of a narcissistic sociopath (albeit a highly intelligent one) and is thus somewhat suspect.  It's possible that Ajokli is being presented as a red herring to conceal some other force at work.  We're just a bunch of suspicious bastards and the text isn't definitive, so we're keeping our eyes and minds open to other possibilities.

But, here's where your wrong, the evidence does not come from Kelmommas. It comes from the librarian, things we learn about how Ajokli selects and treats his chosen ones. Kelmommas thinks that the WLW warrior is the Narinder of Ajokli, so how does anything Kelmommas thinks mean anything at all? None of the evidence I have presents even comes from Kelmommas. Kelmommas is a totally unwiitting pawn in the scheme of the things, he's being used the entire time, his narcissism means abslotutely nothing to wether or not he is a tool of Ajokli. It's the beauty of the whole plot.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2016, 12:06:22 pm »
But it does apply to Kelmomas.  Kel thinks he's the center of all the events.  He asks his questions of the Librarian because he thinks the Four Horned Brother is involved.  It isn't that the Librarians answers are wrong, it's that the assumption that Ajokli must be involved and not some other power.  Kel is convinced it's Ajokli and so doesn't asks questions like "who else could it be?"  And so in the absence of the elimination of other factors, we ask that question.  Everyone is wrong about who the White Luck Warrior really belongs to because they assume he's a Narindar because only Narinder's have super murder powers right?  They don't ask "who else could have done this?  Could the White Luck have done this?" because they assume the answer is already known. 

Kel doesn't look at what else could it be and because most of the relevant data is gathered from his viewpoint we are left blind to the alternatives just as the gods are blind to cause of coming Apocalypse and blame the only thing they can see, Kellhus we are blind to alternatives other than Ajokli.  This doesn't mean Ajokli isn't involved, it just means other alternatives haven't been eliminated.

MSJ

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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2016, 12:21:23 pm »
But he is a ski g about the White-Luck who is clearly a vessel of Yatwer. He's not asking about himself, but the WLW.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2016, 09:45:36 pm »
Sorry for my hurried response there, was leaving work and in a rush. But yea, Kelmommas is not asking the librarian about himself, but the WLW. And, whenever Sammy mentions the beetle, Kel brushes it off as a conversation between equals. None, of what makes me think Kel is a tool of Ajokli comes from anything that Kelmommas thinks or does. Again, that's the beauty of it.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2016, 09:54:32 pm »
No, Kelmomas isnt' asking about himself.  He's asking about the person who fascinates him and the god interests him.  Again, you may very well be right but what are the alternatives?  Could another god or agency produce those results?  With the Skin Spies we had two theories of their existence:  one they were a tool of the Cishaurim and the other was that they were a tool of the Consult.  But we were told by a reliable source that the Psukhe couldn't have made such constructs and then the captured Skin Spy called Akka "Chigra" which pretty much settled the question for the reader.  The question of what else could have done this and why must it be Ajokli has not been answered.  We know the gods are blind to the No-God.  What else is beyond their vision?

MSJ

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« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2016, 10:00:29 pm »
We know the gods are blind to the No-God.  What else is beyond their vision?

Ahh, but we know that Ajokli is not blind to the No-God. Everything within the text points to Kelmommas being tool/Narinder of Ajokli. Why then, should we think that some other God that has their hand in these specific events? It seems like you agree with me, but for some reason or an other, you just like to argue with me, which is fine. But, the thing is, you have offered ZERO evidence that it could be any other God than Ajokli. When you find eveidence that some other Gods has a chance of being involved in this arc, then we can have a real debate. All you have offered so far is, "MSJ, your probably right and the facts support your position, yet I'm not 100% convinced that your right.". Which to me is a useless argument to be made.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2016, 12:39:43 am »
How do we know Ajokli isn't blind to the No-God?  I know some people have speculated that he is, but I haven't actually seen the argument.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2016, 01:55:12 am »
There's one vague thing from the Narindar about Ajokli seeing what the others don't. But that's far from a certainty.

One doesn't have to offer evidence it's a God other than Ajokli unless we presume "Ajokli is helping Kelmomas" is the default standpoint rather than "I don't know what's going on". Why must any God be involved at all?

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« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2016, 11:24:32 am »
There's one vague thing from the Narindar about Ajokli seeing what the others don't. But that's far from a certainty.

One doesn't have to offer evidence it's a God other than Ajokli unless we presume "Ajokli is helping Kelmomas" is the default standpoint rather than "I don't know what's going on". Why must any God be involved at all?

Well, throughout the Aspect-Emperor series, the Gods involvement is a major part of the plot.  This doesn't guarantee that Ajokli is responsible for anything, per se, but it sure fits with what we see from Yatwer (and possibly Gilgaöl).
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira