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Messages - H

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2881
Atrocity Tales / Re: The False Sun
« on: March 16, 2015, 01:38:48 pm »
Well, perhaps, but I think there is something more pragmatic at hand.

She was constantly referred to as his "first wife" and we already know full well how much he risks to save his concubine.  I have doubts she was probably too pleased by that...

2882
Atrocity Tales / Re: The False Sun
« on: March 16, 2015, 01:13:21 pm »
Quote from: Frod Nonagrm on March 16, 2015, 12:48:21 pm
lol, i was reading too fast and thought you said you photoshopped something Bakker something--but it was your avatar you were talking about!  sorry!

p.s. i don't think it says anywhere that Ses or NC did see the IF, it would just be hella-interesting

maybe the IF was how the Consult convinced Ieva to poison NC?

Not a problem, I thought that was you were referring to, but wasn't sure.  I have zero actual artistic ability to create anything new.

I believe it was absolutely how they convinced Iëva, no doubt at all.  The question is, what had she done that the Fire showed her damned?

2883
Atrocity Tales / Re: The False Sun
« on: March 16, 2015, 12:38:10 pm »
Quote from: Frod Nonagrm on March 16, 2015, 12:07:24 am
Quote from: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 06:06:38 pm
I shy away from the neuropath approach, probably because they were already masters of the mundane sciences. If its real, it has to be metaphysical/magical for them to have dropped everything to save themselves.

Maybe that Nil'giccas then, but I could have sworn we have a reference for someone who saw the IF and didn't join up with the Consult.

i think it was Nil'giccas who ordered Mekeritrig and 2 others to go look at it and then report back?

@ H - that is neet-so looking into the IF basically swept away the nonman religion?  another thing to make them crazy!

where are your pictures!!! want to see!

I still can't find any references to if Seswatha saw the Inverse Fire or not.  Nor can I find if Nau-Cayûti actually saw it.

I think it was part of the plan that the Inverse Fire would drive the Nonmen to their side.

As for pictures, I'm not sure what you mean.

2884
General Earwa / Re: The Womb-Plague (A new theory, perhaps?)
« on: March 16, 2015, 12:20:15 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat on March 15, 2015, 09:41:28 pm
Quote from: Wic on March 14, 2015, 03:42:17 pm
I don't remember it making the men sick.
I am positive it did, since it's something I hadn't noticed that stuck out to me a lot on my last re-read. But I cannot remember where it was mentioned. I know it wasn't in the glossary. Think it was in one of the Aspect Emperor books.

I'm looking for it too, but I can't find it.  Do you remember a bit more of the context?

Quote from: Frod Nonagrm on March 15, 2015, 11:45:29 pm
@H - that's a cool reading--i don't know why it never occured to me that making your enemy immortal was kind of dumb unless they had something else in mind.  so on this reading, the Inchoroi did not expect the nonmen to retaliate like they did?  the nonman revenge nearly destroyed every last inchoroi, so that was a little miscalculation. 

whatever their reasons, it is just plain mysterious to me that the inchoroi did so much to provoke a powerful foe.  hubris?  studpidity?  secret plan?  hardwiring?  i do not know

Well, I think part is that Sil seems like a hot-shot.  I doubt if he thought all too much about the Nonmen's chances before the Battle of Pir-Pahal.  I pretty sure there was no such thing as "sorcery" on any of the planets the Inchoroi had reduced before.  There, the Tekne had, no doubt, reigned supreme.  I think that is what rankles Aurang so much.  Had Sil been patient, they would have learned of sorcery, learned how to devise something very specific to beat the Nonmen.  Instead, he launched them in to a head-on fight that probably cost not only a great deal of their lives, but probably a large part of their understanding of the Tekne.

Chances are good that Aurax and Aurang were all that was left.  They had to make due with they had left at that point.  I think they realized they were going to be crushed by the Nonmen eventually, because they lost the ability to birth more Inchoroi (or maybe they never had it).  In light of the fact that they could seduce Nin’janjin and apparently the practitioners of the Aporos, I think they felt like perhaps faced with no other choices, Nonmen would eventually start to fall in line with the Inverse Fire, just like the Inchoroi themselves did.

I think the plan would have worked actually, except that Men started to interfere.  I think the ad-hoc plan they had for the Nonmen actually was working out.  Men on the other hand, would not go out so easily, that's why the No-God was needed.

2885
General Earwa / The Womb-Plague (A new theory, perhaps?)
« on: March 13, 2015, 11:13:52 am »
So, I was trying to do a little research on the Inverse Fire, trying to discover if there is evidence that anyone had seen it and not been converted, when I stumbled upon an "answer" (or at least, something of a satisfactory explanation for myself) to something that has always bothered me: the Womb-Plague.  I present what might be a new theory.

At first blush, it made no sense.  What kind of garbage weapon makes your enemy immortal?  Sure, it extinguished future generations of Nonmen, but if you could kill all the women, why not kill all the men too and be done with it?  I tried to explain it to myself that perhaps the Tekne was incompletely known or was unable to be wielded effectively, but both of those came to me as hollow explanations.

A while back, I took to think of why they would want to keep them alive for so long.  Was it just to torture them?  That didn't make much sense though either, since they could have had more victims if they let them continue to procreate.  Something was missing but I didn't have the time to find it.

In researching the Inverse Fire, I wanted to see who had seen (or most probably seen it) and what happened to them.  I believe I might have found a much more convincing explaination of the Womb-Plague instead.  Ready for it?  It was not a weapon at all, it was an enlistment.  Even more to the point, it was given to remake the Nonmen in the Inchoroi's image.

Follow me through here: as the Inchoroi wait in the Ark during the Second Watch, in the company of the traitor Nonman king Nin’janjin, I believe they realize two things.  One, that the Inverse Fire can effect Nonmen (and men as well) and two, that the Nonmen are not all that unlike themselves.  Realizing that it would be easier to fight their damnation collectively, the Inchoroi decide to set the Nonmen on the same path they took themselves, in the hopes that the Nonmen would turn willingly to the Inverse Fire and in the interest of their own salvation, help bring about the sealing of the world from the Outside.

The fact that all the women are killed in this plan is very salient here, since it cuts off any idea of "carrying on" through progeny.  The eternal life granted leaves them to work as long as they need to avoid damnation, faced with no other real option for self-preservation.

Certainly seems logical, how much easier would it be to reduce the world to 144,000 souls if your forces working toward that end are about that number or more?

I don't know if this is "right" in the strict sense, but I know it makes a lot more sense to me this way then the idea that the Womb-Plague was a failed weapon.  Failed enlistment tool, yes, definitely.

Hopefully this makes sense outside my head though...

2886
Atrocity Tales / Re: The False Sun
« on: March 12, 2015, 07:53:56 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 06:06:38 pm
I shy away from the neuropath approach, probably because they were already masters of the mundane sciences. If its real, it has to be metaphysical/magical for them to have dropped everything to save themselves.

Maybe that Nil'giccas then, but I could have sworn we have a reference for someone who saw the IF and didn't join up with the Consult.

I can try to look some up when I am home later, but I'm really not sure.

If we consider that there is a way to resist the Inverse Fire (seems plausible), I'd guess that Kellhus would be the one able to do it.  Whether or not he wants to is another story though.

2887
Atrocity Tales / Re: The False Sun
« on: March 12, 2015, 05:32:08 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 05:14:50 pm
Yeah one of the Nonmen explicitely said they saw it I thought, Nil'Giccas maybe, and didn't join.

Seswatha is speculated to have seen it, but no outright proof that he did.

But im clearly foggy as well. Other's know things more clearly than I, but are harder to find :P.

I'm not sure.  Nin’janjin saw it and he was the one who they first made immortal, thus strating the Womb-Plague.  Nil’giccas (Cleric) I don't recall having read that he had seen it.

I'm curious because we don't know how resistible what it shows is...

Perhaps it is something that actually alters the brain on a physiological level though, a la, something from Neuropath?

Quote from: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 05:14:50 pm
We call you folks Old Names for a reason.

Time flies when you are waiting for books I guess?  Haha

2888
Atrocity Tales / Re: The False Sun
« on: March 12, 2015, 05:05:48 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 04:46:01 pm
I figured as much. At first I thought it was just a direct copy from TDTCB cover, but realized that the text doesn't surround the building thing. A coloration of the chapter headers then. Either way, very cool.

Come to think of it, I think the colored version of the Temple came from the Three-Seas board itself.  Hard to remember, it was about 10 years ago...wow, that's a long time...

Quote from: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 04:46:01 pm
As for Kellhus, "then what" is pretty much as far as it goes. I think some common suggestions are: save everyone, save himself, become a god, seal the world from the gods, get everyone killed, join the consult, destroy the consult, steal/use/learn the Tekne,  become a self moving soul, or some combination of those things.
My  memory is a little foggy on this, but has anyone ever seen the Inverse Fire and not joined the Consult?  Did Seswatha actually see it?

2889
Atrocity Tales / Re: The False Sun
« on: March 12, 2015, 04:38:50 pm »
Quote from: SilentRoamer on March 12, 2015, 04:22:40 pm
Welcome H,

Think I seen you around as .H. on westeros?

I always thought the Consult seemed to mock the idea of "finding oblivion" as if they thought this was just a Nonman myth. Shae and Aurang definitely seemed to be mocking Titirgas understanding of damnation.
That's me, yeah, mostly a lurker there though too.

They seem to mock him, but they also seem to be pretty certain.  It seems that perhaps they can see in the Inverse Fire all the Nonmen who thought they were reaching oblivion actually aren't?

Quote from: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 04:30:48 pm
Well not all of you made it to here, so I stand by my previous welcoming :). Great profile picture btw, where did you get that from?

Actually, I didn't connect the mirror between Void and Outside, but I like that quite a bit.

I meant Salvation by closing the world from the gods and therefore forever escaping damnation, rather than some kind of redemptive steps to cleanse their souls. I was unclear.

I made the picture in Photoshop a long, long time ago, for the Three-Seas board, actually, haha.

I actually hadn't even thought of the mirroring of the Void and Outside until I started typing up my response, but it seemed to fit, so I went with it.

As for Salvation, I understood.  I was just being a bit more clear myself.  I'm not sure how this really fits in with Kellhus though.  My guess is that at some point he sees the Inverse Fire, then what?

2890
Atrocity Tales / Re: The False Sun
« on: March 12, 2015, 04:12:48 pm »
Well, I've actually "been around" since the days of the Three-Seas board, just never post much.

Quote from: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 03:30:48 pm
The play of Fire is probably close to the mark, regardless of what actually occurs in that hell. An anchor for the reader.
The analogy for cold works, though cold if often associated with numbness, and peace/quiet, while for me fire is more easily associated with suffering and screaming agony. I can't imagine a more horrific way to spend eternity, endlessly burning in a fire...

I also think you might be combining 'The Void' and "The Outside'. The Void is presumably a reference to space, while The Outside is the spiritual realm. There are many different kinds of 'Outsides', as many or more than the number of Gods, and I associate the oblivion/nothingness that the Nonmen/Titirga seek is someplace untouched by those entities, a place of nothing.
I agree that the idea of the Void (space, as we call it) and the Outside (eh, I guess something like Heaven, Hell and Purgatory) are actually kind of mirrors (maybe?) of each other.  In the sense that the Void is the nothing outside the physical realm (ok, not actually nothing, but something very much like it, conceptually) and the Outside is the nothing outside the spiritual realm.  Planets (well, matter, so stars, etc.) are the breaks in the Void, the Gods seem to be the breaks in the Outside.  I guess that what leads me to conflagration the two together to put meaning to what Inverse Fire could mean.

Quote from: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 03:30:48 pm
Reminds me of Adam/Eve and the tree of knowledge.

Exactly, knowledge that really was not supposed to be known, as in, knowledge you can't handle knowning.

Quote from: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 03:30:48 pm
The choice between nothing, and an eternity of peace, seems like a pretty easy one as well, especially if the 'oblivion' gambit if not a sure bet and you end up burning forever anyway.

Well, there are seemingly three options when your soul passes to the Outside:
Salvation - you soul is coddled and accepted by a god.  Seems decent.
Oblivion - your soul just slips through a crack in the gods and is gone.  I don't know how that seems, kind of like a loss though.
Damnation - your soul sits between the gods, forever in purgatory and probably pain.  Seems pretty bad.
I think the Consult, in light of the Inverse Fire, know they can't gain salvation.  They are unsure if they can achieve oblivion (seems to take a worship system).  What seems provable to them is either accept damnation or go about sealing the world.  Not hard to see why they take that course really, considering.

2891
Atrocity Tales / Re: The False Sun
« on: March 12, 2015, 03:07:26 pm »
I posted this on the ASoIaF board, but then thought it'd probably be good here too:

I decided to reread The False Sun this morning. It's been a while and I was bored at work, plus I forgot my eBooks of the rest of the series.

We've discussed what the Inverse Fire is numerous times and with such scant information, we have naturally not figured out much about it's nature. My personal feelings are that it is called such because we often presume hell (or Hell) to be a fiery place, yet the reality the damned face in the Outside is actually it's opposite. Fire would be hot, burning, consuming. Damnation in the outside is the opposite, cold, freezing, preserving. Where fire would devour and extinguish, the coldness of damnation is is endless.

That crack-pottery isn't what struck me in the story though, it was the exchange between Shae and Titirga. Is it just me, but I actually believe that everything Shae (and Aurang) is actually true. What they see really is their damnation. I don't fee like the Inverse Fire is a device made to control, it is simply something of a window that reveals what I would term "dread knowledge."

The idea of such a thing is knowledge that does not enwisen, but rather fosters something of a guttural fear response. Indeed, what Shae and the Consult choose to do is actually rather logical, however, it is motivated by the basest and most primitive of thoughts and feelings, pleasure and self-preservation. Nothing is inherently wrong with either, but when they are exacted as pleasure for it's own sake and self-preservation at any cost that is an issue.

Titirga offers them the alternative: oblivion. The Consult rejects this though, because that base need of self-preservation, so closely linked to fear, drives them to try to achieve "salvation" at any cost.

I don't know if that makes any real sense to anyone but me, but I figured I'd just lob it out there...

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